schkorpioI can mspaintJoin Date: 2003-05-23Member: 16635Members
like with everything else in ns2, i'm happy to try it out in the alpha, and if it sux i'll come back here and voice my opinion. But not before i've tried it :)
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
I agree with everything said in the OP.
It isn't even just that being impaired is a fun-breaker, but it's also that some of these ideas are just gimmicks. They don't add anything to the game, in some cases (muffled near-death sounds) they even detract from the game experience. Yeah muffled sounds can be a cool effect, great, but surviving on low HP is difficult enough without adding another handicap to the mix.
<!--quoteo(post=1796695:date=Aug 28 2010, 09:38 PM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bacillus @ Aug 28 2010, 09:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1796695"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Web is 3rd hive and stomp is the biggest reason that makes the least used lifeform in the game see at least some use. NS hasn't had any widely used stuns/impairments since 1.0 era. Even back then web was used only if aliens somehow reached 2nd hive and marines still were able to avoid getting locked down to their defensive positions.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Those things beeing late game doesn't change a thing about them beeing in the game :P Even when a game reached a state where the aliens used those abilities you hardly saw anybody complain about them.
schkorpioI can mspaintJoin Date: 2003-05-23Member: 16635Members
<!--quoteo(post=1796726:date=Aug 29 2010, 12:06 PM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Aug 29 2010, 12:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1796726"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I agree with everything said in the OP.
It isn't even just that being impaired is a fun-breaker, but it's also that some of these ideas are just gimmicks. They don't add anything to the game, in some cases (muffled near-death sounds) they even detract from the game experience. Yeah muffled sounds can be a cool effect, great, but surviving on low HP is difficult enough without adding another handicap to the mix.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i think immersion goes a long way - and it works well in battlefield bad company 2 - it really adds to the OH CRAP I NEED HEALTH!
I can't help but feel in this happy world of theoretical analysis that impairment is being mistaken for loss of control.
Loss of control = bad, I agree with this wholeheartedly. Implementing loss of control should be careful and have very distinct ways of avoiding it. Onos; I don't believe was good because it had TWO froms of control loss when it had stomp and devour, where even team work was rendered void if most of you were stomped and then you just had to sit and watch as it ran up and ate you.
Impairment; now this on the flip I agree IF implemented badly is annoying (but isn't anything implemented badly annoying). But in general, impairment is an excellent mechanic withing games to promote certain behaviour...
the crag impairs you; well maybe you should avoid it, or you need a team approach to overcome it. This makes it an excellent area denial tool that stops Rambo marines building phase or sniping eggs, which is harrasment but shouldn't need players constantly patrolling to counter.
Near death impairment; if you're nearly dead, I find it incredibly stupid to be able to keep ballin and pistol whipping skulks and lerks. You SHOULD be thinking about tactical retreat and your teammates SHOULD have to defend you. Slight impairment encourages this greatly.
tl;dr version is: NS1/2 is not a win/lose game, and impairment is an excellent function to facilitate intellectual strategy.
pSyk0mAnNerdish by NatureGermanyJoin Date: 2003-08-07Member: 19166Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Community Developer
<!--quoteo(post=1796683:date=Aug 28 2010, 09:07 PM:name=TrC)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TrC @ Aug 28 2010, 09:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1796683"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just cause it sounds cool doesnt mean its cool.
If you want to hear random sounds record ns2 sounds and play it background in the long run people are able to predict how the fade can come and the "sounds" are no more than hindrance. Also kinda kills the idea of "silence fade".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think it can work, if they only fake these idle sounds all the alien classes (except skulk) occasionally do by random chance in ns1.
If you have to waste your time and do this kind of modern game crap to NS2, please at least make them optional. If random Joe somehow get his kicks from not hearing sounds properly that’s his perversion, but don't force other players play NS2 handicapped. Random Joe still get his two hours lasting immersion out of game, but those who actually like the core elements of game, can still play game like they want.
I'm fine with some impairment as long as it's part of the design in a reasonable way. CS flashbangs serve the position breaking gameplay in a remarkable way. Without flashbangs the whole game would be far less creative and challenging.
Meanwhile I don't particularly like the idea of random atmospheric immersiviness that starts to overrule the gameplay itself. I'm immersed by NS as a game, a little like a complex board game. I'll never manage to turn it into a space marine simulation my head, so I'd rather have the purely atmospheric impairments for the singleplayer.
<!--quoteo(post=1796679:date=Aug 29 2010, 01:16 AM:name=Delphic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Delphic @ Aug 29 2010, 01:16 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1796679"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm sorry but the fade's sounds not being where the fade is, is too awesome not to do.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Word.
<!--quoteo(post=1796683:date=Aug 29 2010, 03:07 AM:name=TrC)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TrC @ Aug 29 2010, 03:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1796683"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just cause it sounds cool doesnt mean its cool.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->It's attitudes like yours that kill every new idea, and I find it extremely worrying. "Nothing will ever be attempted if all possible objections must first be overcome." - Samuel Johnson. If Flayra announces that fade-confusion-sounds are going to get cut, then honestly it'll be proof that the devs take <b>too much</b> consideration of the community (and I'm putting it nicely). I hope it doesn't come to that, though...
Also: the Rule of Cool disagrees with you.
<!--quoteo(post=1796694:date=Aug 29 2010, 04:35 AM:name=Pyromaniac)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Pyromaniac @ Aug 29 2010, 04:35 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1796694"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think the idea is pretty bad actually. I listed it as impairing because while it doesn't remove a sense, it makes it useless for that situation.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->So then I must assume you took issue with Silence, because you couldn't hear aliens' footsteps. While we're at it, you must have taken issue with Cloaking, because it effectively makes seeing an alien useless for that situation.
<!--quoteo(post=1796692:date=Aug 28 2010, 04:26 PM:name=rebirth)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rebirth @ Aug 28 2010, 04:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1796692"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Uhm... NS1 has <u>devour</u>, <u>web</u> and <u>stomp</u>. All of them basicly took ALL control away from you <u>and yet nobody complained</u>. Well besides devour... but i think people complaining about that are just the impatient ADHD crowd :P<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The devs complained. All the features you mentioned are dropped from being in NS2 due to unbalancing the game. I think it's funny how you were able to mention so many non-ns2 features in one sentence :P
<!--quoteo(post=1796807:date=Aug 29 2010, 06:06 PM:name=FocusedWolf)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (FocusedWolf @ Aug 29 2010, 06:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1796807"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The devs complained. All the features you mentioned are dropped from being in NS2 due to unbalancing the game. I think it's funny how you were able to mention so many non-ns2 features in one sentence :P<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1796807:date=Aug 30 2010, 01:06 AM:name=FocusedWolf)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (FocusedWolf @ Aug 30 2010, 01:06 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1796807"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The devs complained. All the features you mentioned are dropped from being in NS2 due to unbalancing the game. I think it's funny how you were able to mention so many non-ns2 features in one sentence :P<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm amazed how much nonsense can you fit into your lines, I doubt any of those were balance issues infact there for balance. As far as I know stomp is still in the game, like a certain wise MMO'er said anything that is there just to take damage is plain stupid. I doubt they want to make such a lifeform, everything should have meaning in the big picture whether it will be a soft counter to something or slt.
What I would like to see is marines being able to impair the aliens as well. Why does it have to be a one sided thing, I'm pretty sure the Marines are capable enough to find some way to impair their movement, or sight just as well as the aliens can.
And the only problem I had with NS1, impair wise was webs, considering the absurd amount they could shoot out and if you don't got a welder your looking at about a good 20+ seconds of slow moving in a door way if they webbed it well enough. Even worst is when they shoot a tiny piece of it on the ground and you can't even see it due to the graphical limitations and your constantly getting stuck in the webs buried in the ground.
Now if they limited it better, had more counters and fixed it so it worked more properly I wouldn't mind webs at all. It's like what others are saying, the game is boring without impairments, then everything is just damage dealing and that gets old.. fast. I'm also a fan of immersion and when a bomb goes off near you and your hearing gets impaired is one of those things that draw you into the game more, well at least for me.
<!--quoteo(post=1796812:date=Aug 30 2010, 12:50 AM:name=Crispix)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Crispix @ Aug 30 2010, 12:50 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1796812"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Like I mentioned earlier, Stomp is still in NS2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Stomp is now anti-structure, not anti-player like in NS1.
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1796801:date=Aug 29 2010, 11:12 PM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Aug 29 2010, 11:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1796801"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If Flayra announces that fade-confusion-sounds are going to get cut, then honestly it'll be proof that the devs take <b>too much</b> consideration of the community (and I'm putting it nicely). I hope it doesn't come to that, though...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> But now, if they do keep confuscious ingame... It will also be proof they do take "too much consideration of the community" (the other side of the coin)
<!--quoteo(post=1796820:date=Aug 30 2010, 12:29 AM:name=Kouji_San)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kouji_San @ Aug 30 2010, 12:29 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1796820"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But now, if they do keep confuscious ingame... It will also be proof they do take "too much consideration of the community" (the other side of the coin)
Your logic lacks discipline!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Incorrect, as they have initially chosen to put these features in on their own. To remove them after announcement, whereby players complained is the definition of taking the community into consideration. To do so before any testing, is what might be defined as "too much consideration".
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1796823:date=Aug 30 2010, 03:27 AM:name=alphz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (alphz @ Aug 30 2010, 03:27 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1796823"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Your comprehension was ruined by impetuosity!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Removing a feature or staying with a feature they put in from the start could still be based on a community response though, but thinking that is their sole basis on which they make decisions is where Harimau's logic lacks discipline
It seems, I was not the one who was impetuous <i>/points finger</i> <img src="http://members.home.nl/m.borgman/ns-forum/smileys/tongue.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" />
They took the stun out of TF2 because the "pros" couldnt handle the meaning of team play. dont do it with ns2 as well. you are asigned squads for a reason.
<!--quoteo(post=1796828:date=Aug 29 2010, 11:15 PM:name=Kouji_San)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kouji_San @ Aug 29 2010, 11:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1796828"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Removing a feature or staying with a feature they put in from the start could still be based on a community response though, but thinking that is their sole basis on which they make decisions is where Harimau's logic lacks discipline
It seems, I was not the one who was impetuous <i>/points finger</i> <img src="http://members.home.nl/m.borgman/ns-forum/smileys/tongue.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> But basing that features removal at the hands of a community before it is put in, being a feature that a few hate, is the definition of over-reaction.
<!--quoteo(post=1796818:date=Aug 29 2010, 08:07 PM:name=Raza.)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Raza. @ Aug 29 2010, 08:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1796818"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Stomp is now anti-structure, not anti-player like in NS1.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If this is true then they seriously need to change it's name to avoid the in-game and in-forum confusion.
<!--quoteo(post=1796828:date=Aug 30 2010, 03:15 AM:name=Kouji_San)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kouji_San @ Aug 30 2010, 03:15 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1796828"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Removing a feature or staying with a feature they put in from the start could still be based on a community response though, but thinking that is their sole basis on which they make decisions is where Harimau's logic lacks discipline
It seems, I was not the one who was impetuous <i>/points finger</i> <img src="http://members.home.nl/m.borgman/ns-forum/smileys/tongue.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ah i was going to clarify this but felt it unnecessary; If they keep a feature that announced their intention of implementing it could be due to community pressure, but that would be difficult to prove.
Far simpler to look at the situation in a void. Withouth taking the community into consideration (too much or not enough, whichever.) a feature that they announced would get implemented and tested. Its a bit hard to pressure this to happen when it is already going to happen given no interference (which is what you're trying to imply?)
Harimaru is merely pointing to the situation where forum posters get stuck into the pre-implementation/test phase, and his fear of developers that take theory crafting opinion to heart without a good deal of salt.
I fully endorse discussion of how a mechanic may work and previous experiences of said mechanic; but to demand/expect/bray/plead for said feature to not even be implemented is somewhat close minded. Alpha is the time to try the slightly more obscure mechanics and give them the thumbs up or down.
I can't stand people who endlessly boo boo threads like this simply because they haven't seen the exact and finished article in-game. They're the sort of people who have no idea what it means to argue: they rebuff anyone who complains about anything with the catch-all phrase "if you don't like it, don't play it". This is the same as telling people to ###### off and I'm absolutely incensed with the attitude.
The reason we have these discussions is to put forward the pros and cons of whether doing something is a good idea, in the hope of saving the developers some time. I'll now use the logic and argumentative style that these people are accustomed to: "If you don't like our thread, don't participate in it".
Firstly, I think this is a great point by Pyro: <!--quoteo(post=1796613:date=Aug 28 2010, 05:18 AM:name=Pyromaniac)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Pyromaniac @ Aug 28 2010, 05:18 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1796613"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->the player blames their death on himself and learns from this to improve their game<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The reason why stomp was perhaps overpowered in NS1 was because the Onos was faster than vanilla or heavy marines. However, the idea of a targeted stun, I think, was a fair inclusion because it is avoidable for the marines. Devour was absolutely essential in giving the Onos some small counter to jetpacks. The important point here is that the player always had the opportunity to avoid being devoured or stomped and therefore the player had some power over the situation. This is not directly comparable to the Boomer bile in L4D because of the fact that Boomers can spawn and bile you before it is even physically possible to react, a situation which is vanishingly rare in NS1.
The sort of impairment I am most worried about here is sound muffling and motion blur. From a purely performance related viewpoint my experience with both of these effects is huge fps loss. If they are going to be included they must be only as taxing as the rest of the game is from a audio/graphical performance perspective. This is perhaps the source of most frustration with these effects. However, apart from those possible issues, these two effects are unnecessary and intrusive.
In NS1 your health went red when you were below a certain value. This is all that is needed as far as a cue for drawing your attention to being low. The real reasons why sound muffling is in the game are aesthetics and because it is the industry norm. Developers seem to think that everyone wants to have their hearing impaired when they're low because that is what one might expect to happen in real life. As a result, Charlie seems to think that his game must also have this to fit in with the industry standard. All this effect does is penalise you when you are at your most vulnerable. You are already on low health, why would you want to compound this dire situation with a lack of sound to make sure you die? This is a classic attempt to penalise someone for being good enough to stay alive.
The reason wall alignment for skulks was not included in NS1 and will not be included in NS2 is because it disorients and sickens the player. Motion blur has this same effect. I don't want to get a headache whenever I play NS2.
Finally, just to make sure you all understand teamwork - it does not require special moves. In NS1 you could block a fade in a doorway on its way out if you had team mates shooting it. This was teamwork. It did not require a stun or a blind or any sort of so-called "tactical" special move.
inhibiting a player's gameplay is nothing new - in Quake TF (yes - the one from 96), the scout had a concussion grenade that was the bane of all defense... people figured out the command to cheat around it and often used it because it was so annoying...
that being said - impairing a player's senses is nothing but a positive thing in a game - as long as you can't overdo it...
for instance - 3 gorges who's heal spray would make marines see funny would be a bad thing as they could just walk into marine base and take it over. Depending on the effect of course.
Guys, I think Cory already spoke about the relation between community and features getting in or not into the game.
He clearly said that they don't even need to test something to not include it into the game, since when you create a game, you start from concept (paper), and you can't afford to do stuff just to "try" and then see if it is gonna work or not.
Harimau, I think that post was almost an answer to you, please read it again and as many times you need to understand what was Cory telling you.
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1796915:date=Aug 30 2010, 09:21 PM:name=hookuy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hookuy @ Aug 30 2010, 09:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1796915"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Guys, I think Cory already spoke about the relation between community and features getting in or not into the game.
He clearly said that they don't even need to test something to not include it into the game, since when you create a game, you start from concept (paper), and you can't afford to do stuff just to "try" and then see if it is gonna work or not.
Harimau, I think that post was almost an answer to you, please read it again and as many times you need to understand what was Cory telling you.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Most people only read the last page of threads even when there is valuable information to be gorged upon just one page back <img src="http://members.home.nl/m.borgman/ns-forum/smileys/youreallwrong.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" />
<!--quoteo(post=1796637:date=Aug 28 2010, 06:23 AM:name=WatchMaker)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (WatchMaker @ Aug 28 2010, 06:23 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1796637"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't mind being impaired. In fact, I go out of my way to be impaired quite often. Even in video games I enjoy it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I like the idea of Improvement of sensory abilities when near death, simulating high adrenaline. Like maybe if you have <20% health, far away sound effects get amplified and kinda... echoey(?) so it's easier to hear the aliens, but also with all the environmental effects you'll be jumping at the sound of every gear and steam vent, afraid it'll be a skulk about to deliver that final bite.
<!--quoteo(post=1796818:date=Aug 29 2010, 08:07 PM:name=Raza.)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Raza. @ Aug 29 2010, 08:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1796818"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Stomp is now anti-structure, not anti-player like in NS1.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My point was that it still exists in the game, and yes it does happen do disable structure functionality which is STILL an impairment but not directly towards players, exept if I recall, Flayra said awhile back that if the command station gets stomped, the commander's view will start distorting.
Comments
It isn't even just that being impaired is a fun-breaker, but it's also that some of these ideas are just gimmicks. They don't add anything to the game, in some cases (muffled near-death sounds) they even detract from the game experience. Yeah muffled sounds can be a cool effect, great, but surviving on low HP is difficult enough without adding another handicap to the mix.
Those things beeing late game doesn't change a thing about them beeing in the game :P
Even when a game reached a state where the aliens used those abilities you hardly saw anybody complain about them.
Rarely used impairment better.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yup.
Not to mention 1v1 incapacitation are a no-no in my book (L4D Hunter comes to mind).
It isn't even just that being impaired is a fun-breaker, but it's also that some of these ideas are just gimmicks. They don't add anything to the game, in some cases (muffled near-death sounds) they even detract from the game experience. Yeah muffled sounds can be a cool effect, great, but surviving on low HP is difficult enough without adding another handicap to the mix.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i think immersion goes a long way - and it works well in battlefield bad company 2 - it really adds to the OH CRAP I NEED HEALTH!
Loss of control = bad, I agree with this wholeheartedly. Implementing loss of control should be careful and have very distinct ways of avoiding it. Onos; I don't believe was good because it had TWO froms of control loss when it had stomp and devour, where even team work was rendered void if most of you were stomped and then you just had to sit and watch as it ran up and ate you.
Impairment; now this on the flip I agree IF implemented badly is annoying (but isn't anything implemented badly annoying). But in general, impairment is an excellent mechanic withing games to promote certain behaviour...
the crag impairs you; well maybe you should avoid it, or you need a team approach to overcome it. This makes it an excellent area denial tool that stops Rambo marines building phase or sniping eggs, which is harrasment but shouldn't need players constantly patrolling to counter.
Near death impairment; if you're nearly dead, I find it incredibly stupid to be able to keep ballin and pistol whipping skulks and lerks. You SHOULD be thinking about tactical retreat and your teammates SHOULD have to defend you. Slight impairment encourages this greatly.
tl;dr version is: NS1/2 is not a win/lose game, and impairment is an excellent function to facilitate intellectual strategy.
If you want to hear random sounds record ns2 sounds and play it background in the long run people are able to predict how the fade can come and the "sounds" are no more than hindrance. Also kinda kills the idea of "silence fade".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think it can work, if they only fake these idle sounds all the alien classes (except skulk) occasionally do by random chance in ns1.
Meanwhile I don't particularly like the idea of random atmospheric immersiviness that starts to overrule the gameplay itself. I'm immersed by NS as a game, a little like a complex board game. I'll never manage to turn it into a space marine simulation my head, so I'd rather have the purely atmospheric impairments for the singleplayer.
<!--quoteo(post=1796683:date=Aug 29 2010, 03:07 AM:name=TrC)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TrC @ Aug 29 2010, 03:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1796683"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just cause it sounds cool doesnt mean its cool.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->It's attitudes like yours that kill every new idea, and I find it extremely worrying.
"Nothing will ever be attempted if all possible objections must first be overcome." - Samuel Johnson.
If Flayra announces that fade-confusion-sounds are going to get cut, then honestly it'll be proof that the devs take <b>too much</b> consideration of the community (and I'm putting it nicely). I hope it doesn't come to that, though...
Also: the Rule of Cool disagrees with you.
<!--quoteo(post=1796694:date=Aug 29 2010, 04:35 AM:name=Pyromaniac)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Pyromaniac @ Aug 29 2010, 04:35 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1796694"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think the idea is pretty bad actually. I listed it as impairing because while it doesn't remove a sense, it makes it useless for that situation.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->So then I must assume you took issue with Silence, because you couldn't hear aliens' footsteps.
While we're at it, you must have taken issue with Cloaking, because it effectively makes seeing an alien useless for that situation.
On a related note, is cloaking still in NS2?
The devs complained. All the features you mentioned are dropped from being in NS2 due to unbalancing the game. I think it's funny how you were able to mention so many non-ns2 features in one sentence :P
Like I mentioned earlier, Stomp is still in NS2.
I'm amazed how much nonsense can you fit into your lines, I doubt any of those were balance issues infact there for balance. As far as I know stomp is still in the game, like a certain wise MMO'er said anything that is there just to take damage is plain stupid. I doubt they want to make such a lifeform, everything should have meaning in the big picture whether it will be a soft counter to something or slt.
And the only problem I had with NS1, impair wise was webs, considering the absurd amount they could shoot out and if you don't got a welder your looking at about a good 20+ seconds of slow moving in a door way if they webbed it well enough. Even worst is when they shoot a tiny piece of it on the ground and you can't even see it due to the graphical limitations and your constantly getting stuck in the webs buried in the ground.
Now if they limited it better, had more counters and fixed it so it worked more properly I wouldn't mind webs at all. It's like what others are saying, the game is boring without impairments, then everything is just damage dealing and that gets old.. fast. I'm also a fan of immersion and when a bomb goes off near you and your hearing gets impaired is one of those things that draw you into the game more, well at least for me.
Stomp is now anti-structure, not anti-player like in NS1.
But now, if they do keep confuscious ingame... It will also be proof they do take "too much consideration of the community" (the other side of the coin)
Your logic lacks discipline!
Your logic lacks discipline!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Incorrect, as they have initially chosen to put these features in on their own. To remove them after announcement, whereby players complained is the definition of taking the community into consideration. To do so before any testing, is what might be defined as "too much consideration".
Your comprehension was ruined by impetuosity!
Removing a feature or staying with a feature they put in from the start could still be based on a community response though, but thinking that is their sole basis on which they make decisions is where Harimau's logic lacks discipline
It seems, I was not the one who was impetuous <i>/points finger</i> <img src="http://members.home.nl/m.borgman/ns-forum/smileys/tongue.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" />
dont do it with ns2 as well.
you are asigned squads for a reason.
It seems, I was not the one who was impetuous <i>/points finger</i> <img src="http://members.home.nl/m.borgman/ns-forum/smileys/tongue.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But basing that features removal at the hands of a community before it is put in, being a feature that a few hate, is the definition of over-reaction.
If this is true then they seriously need to change it's name to avoid the in-game and in-forum confusion.
It seems, I was not the one who was impetuous <i>/points finger</i> <img src="http://members.home.nl/m.borgman/ns-forum/smileys/tongue.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ah i was going to clarify this but felt it unnecessary; If they keep a feature that announced their intention of implementing it could be due to community pressure, but that would be difficult to prove.
Far simpler to look at the situation in a void. Withouth taking the community into consideration (too much or not enough, whichever.) a feature that they announced would get implemented and tested. Its a bit hard to pressure this to happen when it is already going to happen given no interference (which is what you're trying to imply?)
Harimaru is merely pointing to the situation where forum posters get stuck into the pre-implementation/test phase, and his fear of developers that take theory crafting opinion to heart without a good deal of salt.
I fully endorse discussion of how a mechanic may work and previous experiences of said mechanic; but to demand/expect/bray/plead for said feature to not even be implemented is somewhat close minded. Alpha is the time to try the slightly more obscure mechanics and give them the thumbs up or down.
The reason we have these discussions is to put forward the pros and cons of whether doing something is a good idea, in the hope of saving the developers some time. I'll now use the logic and argumentative style that these people are accustomed to: "If you don't like our thread, don't participate in it".
Firstly, I think this is a great point by Pyro:
<!--quoteo(post=1796613:date=Aug 28 2010, 05:18 AM:name=Pyromaniac)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Pyromaniac @ Aug 28 2010, 05:18 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1796613"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->the player blames their death on himself and learns from this to improve their game<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The reason why stomp was perhaps overpowered in NS1 was because the Onos was faster than vanilla or heavy marines. However, the idea of a targeted stun, I think, was a fair inclusion because it is avoidable for the marines. Devour was absolutely essential in giving the Onos some small counter to jetpacks. The important point here is that the player always had the opportunity to avoid being devoured or stomped and therefore the player had some power over the situation. This is not directly comparable to the Boomer bile in L4D because of the fact that Boomers can spawn and bile you before it is even physically possible to react, a situation which is vanishingly rare in NS1.
The sort of impairment I am most worried about here is sound muffling and motion blur. From a purely performance related viewpoint my experience with both of these effects is huge fps loss. If they are going to be included they must be only as taxing as the rest of the game is from a audio/graphical performance perspective. This is perhaps the source of most frustration with these effects. However, apart from those possible issues, these two effects are unnecessary and intrusive.
In NS1 your health went red when you were below a certain value. This is all that is needed as far as a cue for drawing your attention to being low. The real reasons why sound muffling is in the game are aesthetics and because it is the industry norm. Developers seem to think that everyone wants to have their hearing impaired when they're low because that is what one might expect to happen in real life. As a result, Charlie seems to think that his game must also have this to fit in with the industry standard. All this effect does is penalise you when you are at your most vulnerable. You are already on low health, why would you want to compound this dire situation with a lack of sound to make sure you die? This is a classic attempt to penalise someone for being good enough to stay alive.
The reason wall alignment for skulks was not included in NS1 and will not be included in NS2 is because it disorients and sickens the player. Motion blur has this same effect. I don't want to get a headache whenever I play NS2.
Finally, just to make sure you all understand teamwork - it does not require special moves. In NS1 you could block a fade in a doorway on its way out if you had team mates shooting it. This was teamwork. It did not require a stun or a blind or any sort of so-called "tactical" special move.
that being said - impairing a player's senses is nothing but a positive thing in a game - as long as you can't overdo it...
for instance - 3 gorges who's heal spray would make marines see funny would be a bad thing as they could just walk into marine base and take it over. Depending on the effect of course.
He clearly said that they don't even need to test something to not include it into the game, since when you create a game, you start from concept (paper), and you can't afford to do stuff just to "try" and then see if it is gonna work or not.
Harimau, I think that post was almost an answer to you, please read it again and as many times you need to understand what was Cory telling you.
He clearly said that they don't even need to test something to not include it into the game, since when you create a game, you start from concept (paper), and you can't afford to do stuff just to "try" and then see if it is gonna work or not.
Harimau, I think that post was almost an answer to you, please read it again and as many times you need to understand what was Cory telling you.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Most people only read the last page of threads even when there is valuable information to be gorged upon just one page back <img src="http://members.home.nl/m.borgman/ns-forum/smileys/youreallwrong.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" />
My point was that it still exists in the game, and yes it does happen do disable structure functionality which is STILL an impairment but not directly towards players, exept if I recall, Flayra said awhile back that if the command station gets stomped, the commander's view will start distorting.