Order To Build Towers
Ensign_Deadmeat
Join Date: 2002-11-22 Member: 9590Members
Join Date: 2002-11-22 Member: 9590Members
<div class="IPBDescription">This should be intuitive...you'd think.</div> Today I played maybe my fifth game where a Gorg (new presumably) made the first hive tower a sensory tower. In two of the other ones, it was a movement tower. All of the times, that pretty much cost the aliens the game.
So in case you're new to Gorg or to the game, this is the way it works.
Offense towers can be built anytime you have the resources throughout the game. I believe the only restriction is that there can only be five per area.
Resource towers can also be built anytime during the game if you have enough resources, but only on empty resource holes.
The remaining three, Defense, Movement, and Sensory, are hive towers. You only get to build one type per Hive. If you have one hive, you can build one type, two hives, two types, etc...
This is the order that in almost all situations the hive towers should be built in.
1-Defense Tower
2-Movement Tower
3-Sensory Tower
If you build any other tower besides a Defense tower on the first hive, you are almost certainly sacrificing your team's chance of winning unless a 2nd hive goes up very soon after.
So in case you're new to Gorg or to the game, this is the way it works.
Offense towers can be built anytime you have the resources throughout the game. I believe the only restriction is that there can only be five per area.
Resource towers can also be built anytime during the game if you have enough resources, but only on empty resource holes.
The remaining three, Defense, Movement, and Sensory, are hive towers. You only get to build one type per Hive. If you have one hive, you can build one type, two hives, two types, etc...
This is the order that in almost all situations the hive towers should be built in.
1-Defense Tower
2-Movement Tower
3-Sensory Tower
If you build any other tower besides a Defense tower on the first hive, you are almost certainly sacrificing your team's chance of winning unless a 2nd hive goes up very soon after.
Comments
There's a reason for that, folks. Any of them can work. Now if you want to say that D/M/S works the best for a newer team, then I'll agree, but to say this always has to be the order, even for an experienced team, then I call you the newb.
~Az
~Az
And a skulk does not need any D chamber abilities to be useful, Movement and Sensory are much more effective for skulks.
Also OC arent needed in the begining of a game, the protection of the hives and res chambers is the job of the skulks, and once OC do go up the gorges should be able to get to them intime to heal spray them, aslong as they arent being built off in random areas.
really any order will work.
When the aliens lose due to a diff order than D>M>S it is most likely that 1/2 alien team yelling at the gorge rather than playing.
edit: although Movement should be one of the 1st two as adren is a very important for middle stage aliens, especially lerks umbra
So in case you're new to Gorg or to the game, this is the way it works.
Offense towers can be built anytime you have the resources throughout the game. I believe the only restriction is that there can only be five per area.
Resource towers can also be built anytime during the game if you have enough resources, but only on empty resource holes.
The remaining three, Defense, Movement, and Sensory, are hive towers. You only get to build one type per Hive. If you have one hive, you can build one type, two hives, two types, etc...
This is the order that in almost all situations the hive towers should be built in.
1-Defense Tower
2-Movement Tower
3-Sensory Tower
If you build any other tower besides a Defense tower on the first hive, you are almost certainly sacrificing your team's chance of winning unless a 2nd hive goes up very soon after.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The most important reason for DC's first, besides traits, is that you can use them to defend offense towers and hives right from the start.
Movement chambers are necessary in order to defend your hives from jetbo's, as well as doubling the efficiency of offensive Gorges, Fades and Lerks.
Frankly, the sensor upgrade is so much worse the other two its ridiculous.
Even if you upgraded it - say, any sensor chamber makes motion tracking useless, and sensor chambers showing all marines withing about siege range on the hive sight - it would still be a doubtful choice. Possible, but still doubtful.
As it is, I can only agree to the suggestion of public flogging.
If you have some decent players on your team, you can do all sorts of interesting chaimber orders that can rock the marine team. I love games with movement chaimbers first. Have you ever seen how deadly a skulk can be with Level 3 Silence? Marines never hear them coming up from behind.
Same deal with Sensory chaimbers. For one, they only cost 10, so you can get 3 Sensory Chaimbers faster than you can build 3 of either of the other types. If you have reliable aliens, there is very little chance of the marines making it far out of their base with cloaked aliens covering the passageways leading outside of their spawn.
Like I said, I agree that when you are playing with people who have little idea what they are doing, D>M>S is the best route to take, but saying that Sensory first is always a bad thing is just closed-minded thinking getting the better of you.
No, I cannot STRESS enough how wrong this statement is.
Versus ANY marine with decent aim, un-carapaced skulks turn into floor-grease in a matter of miliseconds.
To what Shufly said about silenced skulks: Yes silence works well, but even then, marines who bunny hop all over the place would still have more of a chance than if they were fighting carapaced skulks. Then even not counting that, gorge hunting marines, turn uncarapaced gorges into sacks of lead VERY easily. You cannot win the game with just skulks... Gorges have to be able to live beyond a few feet from the hive.
Celerity simply does not make skulks fast enough for it to be effective, and cloaking just plain sucks.
S/M
Then IF you get to middle game, your fades are EASILY killed by rushing lmg/la marines who can just run out and stomp all over expensive aliens. (Carapace is NECESSARY).
S/D
Oh then you have umbra... Oh wait, you dont have it, my bad. Non-constant umbra lets the lerk get flattened FAST, and from there, it is just a rushing marine and one less fade.
That is not even mentioning the lack of actual fighting the fades would be doing without adren. Fades without adrenalin take YEARS to destroy simple marine outposts, which would take CONSIDERABLY less time if the fades had adrenalin.
GOTCHA!
Read about military tactics. Go ahead, its fun and interesting. You will find that movement is possibly the most important factor of military combat. A small, underequipped but mobile force can defeat a slow, predictable force of greater numbers or firepower. (Vietnam, anyone?)
What advantages do the Kharaa have over the Marines? A) They are fast, B) They are versatile, and C) They work well alone or in groups. An experienced skulk can dart through marine turrets to take out an underdefended target or a lone marine. On the other hand, any marine with more than 12 functioning brain cells wouldn't be caught alone anywhere, let alone in the midst of a Kharaa emplacement in early game.
If you build your sensory chambers first, you can be guaranteed that 99.9% of your skulks will choose cloaking. It is the logical choice for early game play. (Or arguably any game play except hunting down fleeing marines after their base is decimated)
And what does that mean your skulks will be doing? Camping. Stripping them of advantages A, B, and C. They will be A) slow to respond to new information, A again) unlikely to give up their prized spot to respond to new information, B) Camping on the ceiling... camping on the walls or the floor... or perhaps camping, and C) Camping individually because unless you have a huge server size, you'll need to distribute to cover key points.
A lone skulk, even with the element of surprise, is no match for a group of three marines who know which side of the LMG the bullets come out of even WITH carapace. Without carapace you'd better hope for a blessing from the lag gods, or narcolepsy on the part of the marines.
And lastly, try digging marines out of a turret infested position with cloaking. Nuff said.
No, I cannot STRESS enough how wrong this statement is.
Versus ANY marine with decent aim, un-carapaced skulks turn into floor-grease in a matter of miliseconds.
To what Shufly said about silenced skulks: Yes silence works well, but even then, marines who bunny hop all over the place would still have more of a chance than if they were fighting carapaced skulks. Then even not counting that, gorge hunting marines, turn uncarapaced gorges into sacks of lead VERY easily. You cannot win the game with just skulks... Gorges have to be able to live beyond a few feet from the hive.
Celerity simply does not make skulks fast enough for it to be effective, and cloaking just plain sucks.
S/M
Then IF you get to middle game, your fades are EASILY killed by rushing lmg/la marines who can just run out and stomp all over expensive aliens. (Carapace is NECESSARY).
S/D
Oh then you have umbra... Oh wait, you dont have it, my bad. Non-constant umbra lets the lerk get flattened FAST, and from there, it is just a rushing marine and one less fade.
That is not even mentioning the lack of actual fighting the fades would be doing without adren. Fades without adrenalin take YEARS to destroy simple marine outposts, which would take CONSIDERABLY less time if the fades had adrenalin.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Do people NOT know how to sit in a hall cloaked, and just wait? Honestly, when your waiting for the Marines cloaked, you have every advantage.
1) You pick the location of the fight.
2) <b>You pick wheather to engage or not</b>.
3) If you don't engage, you're a perfect scout.
4) You completely have the advantgage of surprise.
5) Your making Marines paraniod to go down "X" hallway after a few kills, easily taking them out of there game.
Those are EXCELLENT qualties in a fight. You shouldn't have ANY problems taking Marines down with level 3 cloaking. And this applies to any Alien.
And level 3 cloaking is PERFECT for Gorges early game (or anytime actually).
Hear a potential Marine heading your way? Easy - cloak.
If the Marine starts to knife the resource tower you just built - stay cloaked & call for back-up. Simple.
Yes, going Sensory first requires a different style of play. But its every bit as effective, if not MORE effective as any other chamber first when used correctly. I can't wait untill more poeple realize that.
ONE SINGLE GORGE HUNTING MARINE CAN SINGLE-HANDEDLY WIPE OUT ALIEN CHANCES OF WINNING VERY EASILY
If aliens dont have carapace, they die nearly instantly.
Celerity does not do nearly as much benefit as carapace, AND you dont get healing DCs to run back to when you get hurt.
Even if the gorge has escort, he is still dead before the skulks get me 99% of the time.
Then there is the money issue.
Movement chambers are 14 RUs.
That is a hell of a lot for so little benefit.
I fealt really bad about it because i mostly play aliens and i know how annyoing it is when the gorges get killed. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
And yes, D>M>S is the only way to go if you are playing against experienced marines. But cloaking in the beginning of the game is so much fun..... <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
M>D>S is rare, but I wouldn't be upset.
S>*>* and *>S>* are absolutely terrible and deserve a public flogging.
And why do these people always end up being like 3-15?
If EVERY GAME the aliens put up the same upgrades in the same exact order, in the same exact way, what have they become? Predictable. The Marines know that in the early game, the Kharaa will have defense, then movement, then sensory. Therefore, they know they aren't going to be encountering cloaked aliens or fast-moving skulks before at least 15 minutes into the game. This gives them a distinct information advantage. As aliens, you have many variables to contend with. "Is the commander going to research the HMG or HA first? What if he forgoes all that and just upgrades the regular LA/LMG marine?" So, as an alien, you have many more possibilities that the opposition can be than the marines.
I agree that defense is sometimes needed early game. But I also believe that predictability is a bad, bad thing. As marine (and, consequently, alien) players get smarter and adjust to Natural Selection's game mechanics, it's going to become apparent that predictability is not going to be what you want as either side. The fact of the matter is, if an LMG marine can put all of his rounds into a skulk because it didn't maneuver enough, the marine deserves to win the fight, carapace or not.
Aliens need to change up their tactics as conditions require. Have marines that are dead-on shots? Get defense, make yourself feel better even though you're going to die. Marines can't shoot the broad side of a barn? Get movement, it'll make you that much harder to shoot.
Anyhow, that's my opinion. I'm entitled to it.
Let the flames cometh. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Movement first: It's ok. Especially in games with very large rooms or wide corridors.
Defense: Definitely must be first or second. By the time you hit 2 hives i expect marines to have level 1 weapons upgrade. and in most games the third hive location will be full of marines, so the lack of defense against upgraded marine weapons is a BAD idea.
So... I will accept
d/m/s ->standard
d/s/m ->suggests a more static harassment technique
m/d/s ->tried for a quick win, didn't happen so defenses went up second. Or they all got celerity to cover more ground for resource rush.
others such as
m/s/d ->fast and dirty. While there are no defenses in the early game, most OCs should be posted near the hives ONLY and movement chambers built at quick to reach places. This needs more hive conscious aliens who WILL look when a structure is being attacked. sensory second is a mystery, probably to take advantage of the presence of the silence upgrade. in this setup scattering the chambers across the map is the way to go. But not recommended.
s/m/d is just plain bad. by the time you hit two hives you will want static defenses you can leave alone. It is possible that marines will realize you have sensory first, and rush your base from the start.
s/d/m is ok, but you might get complaints from fades, many of whom are currently used to acid launching to kill marines.
2) <b>You pick wheather to engage or not</b>.
3) If you don't engage, you're a perfect scout.
4) You completely have the advantgage of surprise.
5) Your making Marines paraniod to go down "X" hallway after a few kills, easily taking them out of there game.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So I guess you are saying that simply camping lmg/la marines down a hallway is more effective than destroying them with equal/more ease, WHILE taking down a base?
Wow, you can camp a hallway and keep marines from coming by, but you are
A: easy to kill
or
B: unable to achieve much damage over time
Either way, it is a HUGE handicap.
Fades with cara/adren do not need to cloak, they can just run in and kill things without worrying about dying. Cloaking is good for killing marines, which is not the objective of the game.
It is flat out more effective to use a d/m/s chamber order.
Cloaking is reliable for a gorge, but if any decent marine sees an unfinished RT without a gorge nearby is an almost 100% guarantee that the gorge is either hiding inside the RT or cloaked. Plus you will see the sensory towers, and be able to fire off a couple of shots in likely hiding spots, and then splatter the gorge all over the wall when you see him.
Personally In the early game I rarely use any upgrades, as a skulk. Yet usually I am still killing the most marines.
Also carapace is not so very important as it may seem, I often go lerk and umbra for the fades, they barely get hit, we can stomp out all the marine outposts. Sometimes we even get a gorge with us so that we dont have to fall back to heal.
Basically sensory is built to late to be effective, D>M>S you get sensory on the 3rd hive well thats great you have 3 hives you've already won you dont need cloaking to take out the marines.
Well whats the marine gonna do if your cloaked?
Often I will plop res towers down and not finish them if im going to be over 22 when i get to the next res node.
What I'm saying is level three cloaking can be just as effective as level 3 carapace if used correctly.
I am also saying it requires a different style of play - a style much different than using level 3 carapace first.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Wow, you can camp a hallway and keep marines from coming by, but you are
A: easy to kill
or
B: unable to achieve much damage over time<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, its true - you will die to fewer bullets. But if you use cloaking correctly they'll barely have time to fire.
Unable to achieve much damage? How so? When you're chomping on that resource node by yourself, do you listen for Marine footsteps? Well, what do you do when you hear them, just keep chomping away?
I cloak, & if time allows I'll quickly move to another position and cloak. If it's one or two Marines I think I can take, I'll attack - then continue chomping away on the node. If it's 3 or more I'll hold back and wiat for them to move on.
But you know what, that node never existed because the Marines couldn't get out of there base. Why? Because of the eight cloaked Skulks outside there base working together.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Either way, it is a HUGE handicap.
Fades with cara/adren do not need to cloak, they can just run in and kill things without worrying about dying. Cloaking is good for killing marines, which is not the objective of the game.
It is flat out more effective to use a d/m/s chamber order.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's not a handicap at all. You're just not adjusting to the style of play required to use it properly.
And you're right about the objective. I mean, it's a game - the objectives to have fun. But I think you meant about winning. And killing the Marines is the COMPLETE objective.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Cloaking is reliable for a gorge, but if any decent marine sees an unfinished RT without a gorge nearby is an almost 100% guarantee that the gorge is either hiding inside the RT or cloaked. Plus you will see the sensory towers, and be able to fire off a couple of shots in likely hiding spots, and then splatter the gorge all over the wall when you see him.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ok, so you're saying that a Gorge with level 3 carapace will have a longer time of survival against a Marine versus a gorge with level 3 cloaking (when the Gorge is cloaked)? And you're saying that I build my Sensory Towers next to half-built Resource Towers?
Actually I think you're only trying to come up with a (lackluster) explanation trying to show how level 3 cloaking would be bad for a Gorge. But you know what, what should that Gorge chose for an upgrade then? He's not going to live any longer with carapace or regeneration. Possibly redemption though, that could actually be a worthy upgrade (never thought of that) for a Gorge. But I would still chose cloaking. Not to be hard headed, but I believe it has more Pros then Cons then any other upgrade for a Gorge.
There, now I splattered your post all over the wall. jk 8^)
That just won't work.
If you want to go S/M, then your team is clearly on the same page. As such, how do you attack?
IN GROUPS.
A lerk, a fade, and a gorge.
Why on earth would you need defense chambers when you have the gorge right there to heal (and web)?
Why would you need carapace if you have the lerk using Umbra?
A different chamber order means a different <i>play style</i>.
The mighty trio of Fade/Lerk/Gorge might upgrade like this:
Fade: Adren/Scent of Fear (Or Silence/Cloak. That's damn fun.)
Lerk: Adren/Cloak
Gorge: Adren/Cloak (Or Celerity/Cloak if they don't need to be healing much.)
A good team that uses S/M is just that: <b>a good team</b>. Sensory/Movement doesn't let you take out a base by yourself, but if you need to take down a base it's more than possible.
It's also tons of fun to play as Solid Skulk with Cloak/Silence. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
You just made my day. Thank you.
In my opinion, I don't believe we should be arguing, possibly raising tempers over something so subjective as the way you play a game. Whatever your play style, use it to your advantage. We all play different. Accept it. Move on. But instead of arguing over what order is best, perhaps we should be discussing (read: discussing, not arguing) what the best possible strategy is for each combination. Be constructive, not destructive. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
I actually don't mind much if my team's got sensory up as second; I'm obsessed with cloaking, and a cloaked Fade is a real **obscenity** to advancing marines. A decent score usually results, but it's best employed as a support ability for retreating allies.
Honestly, defense chambers are nice but I'm noticing I've been in a number of situations where I wished I could cloak instead of take more damage before I'm caught. What aliens should be doing is thinking the same way as anybody in an RTS: adapt to the situation and strategy of your opponent.
Early Defense is good for:
Rushing marine spawn/captured hive
Protecting the hive against kamakaze marine rushes
Setting up solid forward bases before siege
Giving gorges a chance to run from marines with carapace/redemption
Bringing damaged troops back to action quicker (either with forward towers or regen)
Early Movement is good for:
Lots of energy use (parasite/healing spray spammers)
Getting to multiple groups of marines
Sneaking up on building/scouting marines
Getting back to the hive ASAP (no rule saying they can only be built at hives)
Allowing gorges to expand quicker
Early Sensory is good for:
Containment
Keeping track of any marines at sensative points (they can't walk past SCs like they can OCs to avoid detection)
Spotting hiding marines (Elric fails to get excited)
"Parasiting" marines by damaging them
So in general, defense is for being agressive and trying to overcome a disadvantage like an agressive marine rush or taking back a turreted hive, movement is for flanking and fighting 2-3 groups of marines and scouting, sensory is for cementing map control (but you have to already have it).
So, yeah, d>m>s is probably the best idea for pubs unfamiliar with each other, but for a group that knows each other and especially in league play, I'd have to bonk someone who decided the only way to win is to follow one strategy no matter the conditions of the game. As a matter of fact, from now on I think I'll suggest that gorge building at the time consider building so and so structure depending on how the game is going and if I know a few people on the aliens well. If the situation calls for defense, go defense, otherwise I think it's better playing the game at hand and not the game from last round.
P.S. Admittedly, I think movement has the least situations to be useful early game but I could very well be wrong.