NS2 Question
peentank
Join Date: 2010-09-01 Member: 73857Members
Join Date: 2010-09-01 Member: 73857Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Concerns and question</div>Now I always LOVED LOVED LOVED playing the original Natural-Selection. I would laugh all the time. About 4 - 5 years ago, the average player count was 250 people. Now I have heard its down to literally nothing. 0 players. Is this true?
Also, here is my concern. I would love to pre-order this game, to help you guys out, but there is no set date to when I would have access to the game... So that isn't really helping convince me to buy it.
My main concern is, as time goes on, we know that this engine, and the game, is getting old, quick. With a game like Starcraft 2 that has been released, with the most amazing and engaging and lag free multi player environment. New Diablo 3 is coming. Half-life 3 is coming. The new WOW expansion is coming (wow sucks, i know). All these amazing next gen games are on their way. Natural-selection 2, yeah, i know its only 34.95 and not 49.99 like most games. But honestly, who is going to buy a game that looks like it should have been released in late 2007.
I know this is all speculation. But I am genuinely concerned. Natural-Selection the original was free, yet it had a small (but loyal) population, community. Now its been so many years, the game is no where NEAR being fully developed, we have at least another Year before its actually playable to any extent. You have no incentive at this point for people to pre-order the game, hence the (TBD) page.
Also, from an outsiders, and uneducated person, in regards to development. It seems as though your priorities might be a little off. By reading the response of some individuals, the game is unplayable due to FPS and LAG issues. Now, that doesn't usually get fixed over night. Also, with whoever wrote the engine and did most of the actual programming, it will be near impossible for you to fix this issue with anyone's help but yourself. Yet, you guys seem more concerned about crag, and the skulks sprite. If its taking you days to fix something as minor as "Simple draw/select squads". How many years before you actually have a game that doesn't lag. Maybe you guys should have stuck with the Half-life 2 engine, since it does power many MULTI PLAYER ONLY games.
I know at this point, you may not being working on your dime. But, on the loyal people who have supported you. That doesn't give you an excuse to not give an estimated release date. It doesn't give you the right to keep people completely in the dark about your MAJOR problem that you have right now that might ultimately be the end of this game.
Every day that goes by at this point, is equivalent to a week in 2009. a month in 2008, 4 months in 2007 a year from 2004-2005-2006. in the sense that, its just getting old. Every day that passes at this point, is bringing that ultimate end that seems to near. That this will be in fact vaporware.
With it already being a month with the alpha being released. With no indication on how the lag/fps issues are going. This seems to be quite a make it or break it moment. Its as good as the HL2 mod, No MORE ROOM IN HELL..
Yeah you can say that this mod isn't an hl2 mod. However, we all know this is a lie. When it began being made, it was around the time HL2 was released. It is a hl2 mod. No one is making hl2 mods anymore. The hl2 community is l4d, cs:s, and tfc. It will be hard to steal whatever players play those games.
Believe me, I love Natural-Selection as much as you guys do. I would love for this game to be released and have us all playing. However, we know the community will be small to begin with and will die off really fast. However, with these random delays, that keep getting longer and longer, The community will be even smaller and die off even faster. Its the sad truth....
OFF TO STARCRAFT 2 :D:D::D:D
Id love to play, in my opinion, FPS Starcraft, Terran vs Zerg. Thats how I look at this game.
Remember, this is just my opinion, and if you can please teach me otherwise, I will be more than happy to know that I am wrong!
Also, here is my concern. I would love to pre-order this game, to help you guys out, but there is no set date to when I would have access to the game... So that isn't really helping convince me to buy it.
My main concern is, as time goes on, we know that this engine, and the game, is getting old, quick. With a game like Starcraft 2 that has been released, with the most amazing and engaging and lag free multi player environment. New Diablo 3 is coming. Half-life 3 is coming. The new WOW expansion is coming (wow sucks, i know). All these amazing next gen games are on their way. Natural-selection 2, yeah, i know its only 34.95 and not 49.99 like most games. But honestly, who is going to buy a game that looks like it should have been released in late 2007.
I know this is all speculation. But I am genuinely concerned. Natural-Selection the original was free, yet it had a small (but loyal) population, community. Now its been so many years, the game is no where NEAR being fully developed, we have at least another Year before its actually playable to any extent. You have no incentive at this point for people to pre-order the game, hence the (TBD) page.
Also, from an outsiders, and uneducated person, in regards to development. It seems as though your priorities might be a little off. By reading the response of some individuals, the game is unplayable due to FPS and LAG issues. Now, that doesn't usually get fixed over night. Also, with whoever wrote the engine and did most of the actual programming, it will be near impossible for you to fix this issue with anyone's help but yourself. Yet, you guys seem more concerned about crag, and the skulks sprite. If its taking you days to fix something as minor as "Simple draw/select squads". How many years before you actually have a game that doesn't lag. Maybe you guys should have stuck with the Half-life 2 engine, since it does power many MULTI PLAYER ONLY games.
I know at this point, you may not being working on your dime. But, on the loyal people who have supported you. That doesn't give you an excuse to not give an estimated release date. It doesn't give you the right to keep people completely in the dark about your MAJOR problem that you have right now that might ultimately be the end of this game.
Every day that goes by at this point, is equivalent to a week in 2009. a month in 2008, 4 months in 2007 a year from 2004-2005-2006. in the sense that, its just getting old. Every day that passes at this point, is bringing that ultimate end that seems to near. That this will be in fact vaporware.
With it already being a month with the alpha being released. With no indication on how the lag/fps issues are going. This seems to be quite a make it or break it moment. Its as good as the HL2 mod, No MORE ROOM IN HELL..
Yeah you can say that this mod isn't an hl2 mod. However, we all know this is a lie. When it began being made, it was around the time HL2 was released. It is a hl2 mod. No one is making hl2 mods anymore. The hl2 community is l4d, cs:s, and tfc. It will be hard to steal whatever players play those games.
Believe me, I love Natural-Selection as much as you guys do. I would love for this game to be released and have us all playing. However, we know the community will be small to begin with and will die off really fast. However, with these random delays, that keep getting longer and longer, The community will be even smaller and die off even faster. Its the sad truth....
OFF TO STARCRAFT 2 :D:D::D:D
Id love to play, in my opinion, FPS Starcraft, Terran vs Zerg. Thats how I look at this game.
Remember, this is just my opinion, and if you can please teach me otherwise, I will be more than happy to know that I am wrong!
Comments
How to interpret this...
Are you saying that whenever they do release, the game will look like it should have been released in late 2007 - so you're saying that now, the game looks like it should have been released in late 2007. That's a little insulting to the art and engine team, isn't it?
Or are you saying it in relative terms, so in the future at whenever date, it will be as if we were from late 2010 (now) looking back at a game from late 2007?
But seeing as the game is currently being developed in late 2010... that's a difference of 3 years from late 2007 and...
In which case you're projecting a late 2013 release.
We have a release date, gentlemen.
<i>Also, SC2 isn't that spectacular really, it just has a lot of cool effects that make it look good. Hopefully NS2's final product will also have all those bells and whistles.</i>
I assume this is your "question."
Nope! I play at least twice a week still.
Are you saying that whenever they do release, the game will look like it should have been released in late 2007 - so you're saying that now, the game looks like it should have been released in late 2007. That's a little insulting to the art and engine team, isn't it?
Or are you saying it in relative terms, so in the future at whenever date, it will be as if we were from late 2010 (now) looking back at a game from late 2007?
But seeing as the game is currently being developed in late 2010... that's a difference of 3 years from late 2007 and...
In which case you're projecting a late 2013 release.
We have a release date, gentlemen.
<i>Also, SC2 isn't that spectacular really, it just has a lot of cool effects that make it look good. Hopefully NS2's final product will also have all those bells and whistles.</i><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I was being nice. Fine.. It looks as though it should have been released late 2006, early 2007.
I personally, don't care about graphics, just gameplay.
Unfortunately, the masses of people, only care about HIGH DEF graphics (ie. the popular, yet atrocious, COD series)
I am concerned about how old this game looks vs how many people will actually play it.
I know it will be extremely fun, once you play it, but the key thing is, once you play it. Who will try it, when they see it? not the kiddies that play COD4. Yeah, I don't even really want them in the NS community to begin with. but its always fun to have waves of nubs to eat them alive.
Nope! I play at least twice a week still.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How many, on average, people play it? if you go to find servers, and then sort by player count, you can guesstimate.
The somewhat longer answer is: It's not playable, and not really testable (after a point) at the moment either, and it's been some time since the last patch (they're currently working on a big one to solve the networking issues at the very least) so of course there aren't many testers anymore - the greatest influx of testers is generally straight after a new patch. I'm personally not going to reinstall the alpha until I've heard much praise about how all the main issues have been fixed. I don't mind testing an incomplete and unbalanced game, but I can't do much with something unplayable.
But yes, I and many others share your concern about the potential size of the playerbase. What good's a multiplayer game without other players to play against?
That's primarily an advertising and PR concern though, really - once the game's complete. Could also be a graphical concern though, as you say. It's hard to sell something that doesn't look (relatively) good.
graphics and art are beyond my expectations =D.
If graphics and looks are all that matter, why then is broodwar still massively more popular than sc2 in korea?
THIS!
I think we've tested about as much as we can with Build 151. Now we're just waiting for the next release.
Some people, amazingly, still don't get what an Alpha really is.
And whats wrong with 2007 graphics? Crysis came out in 2007! It still looks better than 99.9% of games out there today. NS2 looks pretty good. Really, it kind of seems like PC graphics have tapered off a bit, we've not had a jump in gfx for awhile. DX11's tessellation is about the only interesting new tech.
christ, not everything's about you. i was replying to the OP, who suggested that NS2 scrap its own engine and go back to using Source.
Happy to tell you that the graphics are not going to be outdated things like hive are exceptionally well made, however I too fear that this game will be just a couple months old until it starts declining.
There are things that will make a difference when they come along, such as the ability to run particle physics. Running water for instance, will make a huge difference.
People think that because you have an 'open canvas' with games, that sticking more in will make it better. Having infinitely detailed worlds, with every possible kind of object that you can pick up, etc, etc...
This is to the error of the people who make them and don't consider the human factor on the other end, they are dreamers (not saying that is a bad thing).
A good example of this was the first battlefield. I loved that game, it was a step forward. Online FPS on a monster scale where it actually took off.
The problem was though, that unless you had access to a vehicle, you couldn't get anywhere on some maps. The vehicles just piss people off. Look at BF2 for example, a lot of the good games and servers are running non vehicle based servers. BF:BC identified the issues with these (so I hear, I haven't played) by making the maps smaller, and thus more intense. The BF series has found its USP (unique selling point), the combination of fast semi-realistic combat, with the ability to drive vehicles, blow up buildings etc, and makes for great combat. It has taken this dream and refined it to perfection.
The industry is fairly inward, in the sense that it looks to create your dreams, but this can lead to being a nightmare.
Take something real world for example, poker. This game has been around for a long time, it hasn't changed that much apart from the bells and whistles surrounding it. No one has thought, 'LETS CHANGE THE DECK AND ADD SHINYS'.
NS2 is sticking to it's guns. I think the team understand their limitations as a company, which is a good thing. But they have something unique that no other game has, and it is the RTS/FPS combination that this time round (from what the recent updates seem to be indicating) they are really pushing for, especially the development of the RTS aspect.
They understand that sometimes commanders are ######, this is a good thing for publics. They have identified how intense games like SC2 are, and I imagine clan matches for this game are going to be insane.
Small/medium sized maps, RTS/FPS and dynamic infestation (something I haven't seen in any game) with a desire to create an intelligent resource based game.
I think that if they really refine their older ideas, this game is going to be great. As for graphics, this isn't going to be an issue. They look great, they seem to have a dynamic engine that they can add to if they wish and people still play games like CS professionally in countries like Korea.
I think games are like any kind of design project. Find a USP, discover issues and insights into how people play games and how past games have been played and produce a unique product that stands its ground.
P.s Oh and as a player base concern, this is the internet. The numbers who play this will be dependent on the quality of the game, and I think they know this from how harsh these forums are.
I can only hope that for the sake of games being different, like this 1, that it succeeds and draws some attention to independent developers that have a good idea and pursue it and definitely deserve it.
Unfortunately, in my experience, the masses of people aren't generally smart and don't really know a good game unless it bit them in the ass. They base their game choices on WHAT GAME DOES EVERYONE HAVE. I WANNA BE LIKE EVERYONE ELSE. They don't base their decision on, I want to try something unique, and learn something new. So I really hope that in this case, its different. Once this game is released, I will help bring attention to it by posting on all sorts of forums. Also, with the price tag which is quite reasonable, and combination of STEAM advertising for them and allowing people to buy the game through them. There might be some hope for the game.
Crysis was released in late 2007. Are you saying this looks as good as Crysis?! Sweet!
Denial is an ugly thing.
I used to sink to a low level and respond to these sort of things. But, since I have realized that there are in fact people with such low confidence that they need to go online and start a war, exist. I will not dignify your sad, lonely, hateful, shameful, full of blame life, with anything further.
So you're saying you already found a lint brush and gum? Hook a brother up.
Maybe. I don't think you have be smart to know if something is good or not to your own self. To each his own. To appeal to a large audience is a different matter, then it has to be really good for a lot of people to have a good opinion about it. If a game is really good to appeal to a lot of people, then it will have the success it deserves even by the power of word and mouth.
But there's a big gap in the market, the success of the first game and 16000 pre orders proove that. I can't see that situation changing within the release window of the next 6 months.
Not sure what I'm talking about since the graphics are going to be leaps and bounds ahead of the source engine.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
On top of that, I can't think of any new game coming out that actually has graphics superior to Crysis, and it's 2010 already. Metro looks decent, Stalker was alright...that's about it. SC2 has some good effects, but doesn't look good, Valve still hasn't even released Episode 3, and Diablo 3 is a few years out.
Just saying.
And then, when i gets right down to it, its all or nothing.
Remember half life 2? It had so many problems with hackers, deadlines, too much bugs, phsyics, too much features and too little time. They had to work long nights to fix countless things. It took 7 years to make hl2. But the result, was amazing.
Will Ns2 make it? Only time will tell.
I can hardly imagine that NS2 will be the big money for UWE. I am very concerned about the budget and afraid of upcoming times where its just running out. "2 million downloads and 10,000 unique players every day" - how large can you expect future purchaser amounts to be just looking at NS players.
What sort of players can be attracted by the very special NS2 gameplay? The major problem will be to be suggestive of the unique gameplay, that NS2 is more than the typical CTF shooter in different colors. (only other games i remember mixing FPS & RTS were Dungeon Keeper and that C&C game [does Tremoulus have a commander view?]) Maybe its just only fitting for a small circle of players, oposite of more or less brainless shooters.
Is it maybe a prestige project to make the engine attractive for big developers? And use that money to get REALLY started in the business?
And I miss the podcasts very much. Are the devs afraid of showing their new zombielooks obtained programming hardcore? Or are they pissed of by the large ammount of very immature feedback and behavior in this forum?
On the one hand, it is raising, we have the alpha. On the other hand I feel a decrease, in communication (go to hell with facebook shouts!) and therefore in overall vibe (not to mention performance issues).
I don't get this. The engine and game can't be getting old if they're still in development. You can't accurately judge the final look of the game by the way it looks now. There are a whole bunch of graphical bells and whistles that we haven't implemented yet, both in terms of engine code and art assets.
As for development priorities, this has been explained before, but we have different people working on different things. Gameplay tasks aren't being prioritised over technical ones, they're being handled by different people.
This isn't an amateur operation. Networking bugs are not going to be the end of NS2.
Lag and FPS are being fixed patch by patch, but since the game is in alpha you shouldn't worry about it looking from the outside in. If the game has these issues at beta, then worry. Otherwise you can rest your pretty little head on the sweet cash cow teet that is NS2.