<!--quoteo(post=1797251:date=Sep 2 2010, 10:45 AM:name=Insane)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Insane @ Sep 2 2010, 10:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1797251"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't get this. The engine and game can't be getting old if they're still in development. You can't accurately judge the final look of the game by the way it looks now. There are a whole bunch of graphical bells and whistles that we haven't implemented yet, both in terms of engine code and art assets.
As for development priorities, this has been explained before, but we have different people working on different things. Gameplay tasks aren't being prioritised over technical ones, they're being handled by different people.
This isn't an amateur operation. Networking bugs are not going to be the end of NS2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thank you for clarifying that there are different people working on the technical than the ones working on the game play. I didn't know how small of a team was working on the game. It seemed weird to be working on gameplay elements while there are/were? core element issues. Which I know now is possible due to the fact that there is a team big enough and you have different specialists for the different areas of developement. Like I said, I am completely uneducated when it comes to the full procedure of making a game, especially from scratch.
I can't wait for the final release, and I am sure it will be an amazing game, that will continue to make me laugh over and over like the original. Can't wait! As soon as they release a date for BETA for people to play that pre-ordered it. I will pre-order it :D :D
EDIT:
A quick thought I had. What interests me now is, in my opinion, when you want to be part of a team to develop a game, which task(s) would you want. It seems to me, like the core programmers (network, engine, etc.) don't have as much of a rewarding job as say, the people who create the player models? I mean, the programmers do all the gritty work, and then the modelers comes in and gets to use their work to create their own ideas. Level design is awesome too. The programmers do all the dirty work, then the level designers come in, and make a cool level, and get all the credit. Its like hockey, when you win, its the forwards who get the credit, when you lose, its the defense mens fault (just an example) or baseball, when you win, its the hitters who won, when you lose, its the pitchers fault (once again, just an example, and not accurate at all, but some people look at it this way). We all know, each person contributes what they contribute, and without it, it wouldn't be complete. But I guess what I am trying to say is, why would someone want to be a programmer, when they could be a moddeler, or texturer, or level designer (lol, I know these are probably not the proper titles). I guess I could answer my own question by saying, they are better at one thing than the other right?
Personally, I would want to be the level designer.
I don't like programming, it's frustrating and horribly complicated, whereas art is easy, I always know what I need to make, although actually making it is harder because real life doesn't quite have the same special effects as my brain and it never looks as good, but then in my head it is actually many things at once so whenever I condense it down to one thing it always loses something.
But some people aren't like that, I talk to people who do arty stuff and they complain about artists block, which I have never ever had in my life, so apparently some people don't have images of cool stuff in their head all the time. And I also talk to programmers who find doing programming really satisfying, it's like making this huge thing that you built from the ground up, with all of these problems you had to solve and every time you do the thing gets bigger, and eventually you have this massive engine of logic and mathematics which does all this crazy stuff and you can go 'I build this, how badass am I?' Probably feels like a massive power trip. And certainly the problem solving you have to do must be amazingly stimulating for someone who likes mathematics and logic.
Some people are built to do different things. Everyone has their talents.
<!--quoteo(post=1797364:date=Sep 2 2010, 09:37 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Sep 2 2010, 09:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1797364"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Some people are just built to program.
I don't like programming, it's frustrating and horribly complicated, whereas art is easy, I always know what I need to make, although actually making it is harder because real life doesn't quite have the same special effects as my brain and it never looks as good, but then in my head it is actually many things at once so whenever I condense it down to one thing it always loses something.
But some people aren't like that, I talk to people who do arty stuff and they complain about artists block, which I have never ever had in my life, so apparently some people don't have images of cool stuff in their head all the time. And I also talk to programmers who find doing programming really satisfying, it's like making this huge thing that you built from the ground up, with all of these problems you had to solve and every time you do the thing gets bigger, and eventually you have this massive engine of logic and mathematics which does all this crazy stuff and you can go 'I build this, how badass am I?' Probably feels like a massive power trip. And certainly the problem solving you have to do must be amazingly stimulating for someone who likes mathematics and logic.
Some people are built to do different things. Everyone has their talents.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm a programmer. I'd be an artist but every time I try to put what's in my head down on paper my hands decide that I need to make stickmen. I have what my music teacher called stupid fingers.
The modelers are artists but the programmer is god.
Would you rather set up the rules of the universe and watch it take birth from there or only take what you can understand of the universe and put it together to make something.
Essentially if you have a dream for a game - you want to be the programmer. They write the code that makes the story. The art designers fill in the space where our imagination would normally be left.
<!--quoteo(post=1797375:date=Sep 3 2010, 06:37 AM:name=Rulgrok)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Rulgrok @ Sep 3 2010, 06:37 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1797375"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Essentially if you have a dream for a game - you want to be the programmer. They write the code that makes the story. The art designers fill in the space where our imagination would normally be left.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thats not how game dev works. Programmers and artists create what their team leads tell them to. Team leads create what the game designer tells them to. Game designers create what production tells them to. Production passes on what Publishing wants the game to be like. The people with the money determine what the game is like. So basically if you have a dream for a game, get money.
<!--quoteo(post=1797380:date=Sep 3 2010, 07:53 AM:name=zex)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (zex @ Sep 3 2010, 07:53 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1797380"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Thats not how game dev works. Programmers and artists create what their team leads tell them to. Team leads create what the game designer tells them to. Game designers create what production tells them to. Production passes on what Publishing wants the game to be like. The people with the money determine what the game is like. So basically if you have a dream for a game, get money.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> exactly the model employed here
<!--quoteo(post=1797130:date=Sep 1 2010, 06:14 PM:name=peentank)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (peentank @ Sep 1 2010, 06:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1797130"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Now I always LOVED LOVED LOVED playing the original Natural-Selection. I would laugh all the time. About 4 - 5 years ago, the average player count was 250 people. Now I have heard its down to literally nothing. 0 players. Is this true?
Also, here is my concern. I would love to pre-order this game, to help you guys out, but there is no set date to when I would have access to the game... So that isn't really helping convince me to buy it.
My main concern is, as time goes on, we know that this engine, and the game, is getting old, quick. With a game like Starcraft 2 that has been released, with the most amazing and engaging and lag free multi player environment. New Diablo 3 is coming. Half-life 3 is coming. The new WOW expansion is coming (wow sucks, i know). All these amazing next gen games are on their way. Natural-selection 2, yeah, i know its only 34.95 and not 49.99 like most games. But honestly, who is going to buy a game that looks like it should have been released in late 2007.
I know this is all speculation. But I am genuinely concerned. Natural-Selection the original was free, yet it had a small (but loyal) population, community. Now its been so many years, the game is no where NEAR being fully developed, we have at least another Year before its actually playable to any extent. You have no incentive at this point for people to pre-order the game, hence the (TBD) page.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Do you want a game that is released when it is ready and is what the developers wanted? or some junkfest quick high game like most recent games are?
I don't know about you but most games have very little replayability... take years to develop and cost an arm and a leg. Starcraft 2 is starcraft 1, with very little changed from the original formula, it still took a decade to be released and the single player was a weeks worth of play. Its a great game but hardly something to use as an example.
I don't know what world you live in but a month is not a long time in game development time, you just come off as entilted and impatient when you demand more information and start flinging doomsday predictions because the game isn't ready when you are.
<!--quoteo(post=1797130:date=Sep 1 2010, 06:14 PM:name=peentank)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (peentank @ Sep 1 2010, 06:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1797130"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I know at this point, you may not being working on your dime. But, on the loyal people who have supported you. That doesn't give you an excuse to not give an estimated release date. It doesn't give you the right to keep people completely in the dark about your MAJOR problem that you have right now that might ultimately be the end of this game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Excuse? major problem being that they graciously gave you access to an alpha and now you're making judgement on how it will fail and no-one will like it... if its good people will like it.
<!--quoteo(post=1797130:date=Sep 1 2010, 06:14 PM:name=peentank)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (peentank @ Sep 1 2010, 06:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1797130"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Every day that goes by at this point, is equivalent to a week in 2009. a month in 2008, 4 months in 2007 a year from 2004-2005-2006. in the sense that, its just getting old. Every day that passes at this point, is bringing that ultimate end that seems to near. That this will be in fact vaporware.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Very productive, because in gamer world delays are end of the world. Until the game is released and then everyone forgets. Ever heard of valve time? Did you mind waiting 12 years for starcraft? how about another year and a half for the second installment?
<!--quoteo(post=1797130:date=Sep 1 2010, 06:14 PM:name=peentank)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (peentank @ Sep 1 2010, 06:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1797130"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->With it already being a month with the alpha being released. With no indication on how the lag/fps issues are going. This seems to be quite a make it or break it moment. Its as good as the HL2 mod, No MORE ROOM IN HELL..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No indication? They've stated a few times in news updates that they are currently working on it and its not quite where they want it to be and they will release a new patch once its fixed, which they predict will be soon. Or did that information not suit your doomsday predictions and I want it now attitude?
<!--quoteo(post=1797130:date=Sep 1 2010, 06:14 PM:name=peentank)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (peentank @ Sep 1 2010, 06:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1797130"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Believe me, I love Natural-Selection as much as you guys do. I would love for this game to be released and have us all playing. However, we know the community will be small to begin with and will die off really fast. However, with these random delays, that keep getting longer and longer, The community will be even smaller and die off even faster. Its the sad truth....
OFF TO STARCRAFT 2 :D:D::D:D<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes because you sound like a very faithful and loyal customer. I understand your concern, but the way you communicate it is incredibly poor, and make very unproductive and uninformed statements.
Additionally, NS2 doesn't need to steal players from other games. Most gamers play multiple games.
<!--quoteo(post=1797375:date=Sep 3 2010, 01:37 AM:name=Rulgrok)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Rulgrok @ Sep 3 2010, 01:37 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1797375"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The modelers are artists but the programmer is god.
Would you rather set up the rules of the universe and watch it take birth from there or only take what you can understand of the universe and put it together to make something.
Essentially if you have a dream for a game - you want to be the programmer. They write the code that makes the story. The art designers fill in the space where our imagination would normally be left.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
actually, its the animator that is god. modelers make models, programmers make rules, animators give life to static things.
<!--quoteo(post=1797392:date=Sep 3 2010, 10:48 AM:name=alphz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (alphz @ Sep 3 2010, 10:48 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1797392"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Do you want a game that is released when it is ready and is what the developers wanted? or some junkfest quick high game like most recent games are?
I don't know about you but most games have very little replayability... take years to develop and cost an arm and a leg. Starcraft 2 is starcraft 1, with very little changed from the original formula, it still took a decade to be released and the single player was a weeks worth of play. Its a great game but hardly something to use as an example.
I don't know what world you live in but a month is not a long time in game development time, you just come off as entilted and impatient when you demand more information and start flinging doomsday predictions because the game isn't ready when you are.
Excuse? major problem being that they graciously gave you access to an alpha and now you're making judgement on how it will fail and no-one will like it... if its good people will like it.
Very productive, because in gamer world delays are end of the world. Until the game is released and then everyone forgets. Ever heard of valve time? Did you mind waiting 12 years for starcraft? how about another year and a half for the second installment?
No indication? They've stated a few times in news updates that they are currently working on it and its not quite where they want it to be and they will release a new patch once its fixed, which they predict will be soon. Or did that information not suit your doomsday predictions and I want it now attitude?
Yes because you sound like a very faithful and loyal customer. I understand your concern, but the way you communicate it is incredibly poor, and make very unproductive and uninformed statements.
Additionally, NS2 doesn't need to steal players from other games. Most gamers play multiple games.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
God? is that you lord?? PLEASE SHOW ME THE WAY!
Your argument about sc1 being sc2 is ridiculous. That is a simplification on how unclear you think and voids any validity in anything else you had to say. If you would like, I could say that about NS1 and NS2 that you are supporting.
I wouldn't say that, because I am not as unfortunate as you.
<!--quoteo(post=1797373:date=Sep 3 2010, 05:46 AM:name=Walfisch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Walfisch @ Sep 3 2010, 05:46 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1797373"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm a programmer. I'd be an artist but every time I try to put what's in my head down on paper my hands decide that I need to make stickmen. I have what my music teacher called stupid fingers.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I can't draw to save my life, hence why I use 3d packages, don't need clever hands to use them, just a clever head.
The 'god' if there is one on a dev team is the producer, given that they appoint everyone else on the team and lead the project as the whole, they also interface with the production company to get money, and spend a lot of time tying the programming and artistic sides together.
They also are the person who gets their name on the box at the end, if the company is so inclined, so will wright and sid meier would almost certainly be producers.
But then you could also have a company which works entirely differenty, games companies sometimes have odd structures, probably because they're generally full of odd people, so there's no concrete answer I suppose.
<!--quoteo(post=1797461:date=Sep 3 2010, 10:15 PM:name=peentank)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (peentank @ Sep 3 2010, 10:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1797461"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->God? is that you lord?? PLEASE SHOW ME THE WAY!
Your argument about sc1 being sc2 is ridiculous. That is a simplification on how unclear you think and voids any validity in anything else you had to say. If you would like, I could say that about NS1 and NS2 that you are supporting.
I wouldn't say that, because I am not as unfortunate as you.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm really not sure why you bothered quoting the post to then not even address anything within in.
My opinion is different from yours, this voids any validity of anything I had to say...oh wait, this logic is "unfortunate".
For more topic related material read here:
I am of the opinion that specialisation is the way to go for efficiency, it also generally results in higher quality. its just easier to be really really good in one area of related skills.
It has also been pointed out that this is the practice used by UWE.
On the few hours per day on weekdays i have availible i think NS1 + future NS2 will cover up what little time i have with joy and merriment. Maybe NS1 will be replaced by another game on my computer. I've to little time to spend to dilute choices much further.
<!--quoteo(post=1797165:date=Sep 2 2010, 04:27 AM:name=Wheeee)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wheeee @ Sep 2 2010, 04:27 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1797165"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->christ, not everything's about you. i was replying to the OP, who suggested that NS2 scrap its own engine and go back to using Source.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I know who you were replying to, I just didn't come to the same inference, and I thought your inference was a bit absurd.
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited September 2010
<!--quoteo(post=1797687:date=Sep 6 2010, 12:54 PM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Sep 6 2010, 12:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1797687"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I know who you were replying to, I just didn't come to the same inference, and I thought your inference was a bit absurd.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This looks like a "suggestion" though <img src="http://members.home.nl/m.borgman/ns-forum/smileys/tongue.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" />
<!--quoteo(post=1797130:date=Sep 1 2010, 08:14 PM:name=peentank)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (peentank @ Sep 1 2010, 08:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1797130"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Maybe you guys should have stuck with the Half-life 2 engine, since it does power many MULTI PLAYER ONLY games.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Also what's with this doomsday speech about the engine being outdated... It is in development, meaning it is probably also lacking a few shiny shaders and stuff (but even without them it looks very nice)... And no, HL2 does not look better... It fakes most things it does and if you look closely you can see how obvious it does this. Heck it still doesn't have real dynamic lighting, L4D flashlight is close though. Not to mention the unoptimized stutter and fps issues a lot of people seem to have, even on very powerful rigs... And it likes to hog the CPU as well, which seems odd compared to other current gen engines...
Not to mention that bugs will be there in a "from scratch" <u><b>ALPHA VERSION</b></u> of the engine, these will get fixed. But mind you, Spark looks just as good as some other "big licensed" engines (even in it's uncompleted state)
<!--quoteo(post=1797697:date=Sep 6 2010, 09:05 PM:name=Kouji_San)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kouji_San @ Sep 6 2010, 09:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1797697"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This looks like a "suggestion" though <img src="http://members.home.nl/m.borgman/ns-forum/smileys/tongue.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Again, not coming to the same inference.
<!--quoteo(post=1797697:date=Sep 6 2010, 09:05 PM:name=Kouji_San)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kouji_San @ Sep 6 2010, 09:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1797697"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also what's with this doomsday speech about the engine being outdated... It is in development, meaning it is probably also lacking a few shiny shaders and stuff (but even without them it looks very nice)...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> What makes an engine outdated anyway? In my opinion, the criteria would be a lack of flexibility. An inability to do the things you want to do with the engine.
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited September 2010
<!--quoteo(post=1797940:date=Sep 8 2010, 08:37 PM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Sep 8 2010, 08:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1797940"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Again, not coming to the same inference.
What makes an engine outdated anyway? In my opinion, the criteria would be a lack of flexibility. An inability to do the things you want to do with the engine.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Keywords "looks like"
And indeed, a flexible engine has longevity. But most game engine are flexible enough to last a long time, that's why Source is still alive and kicking. Even if it does fake a few things, these things do look pretty good. Didn't some people even implement dynamic lighting or "dynamic shadows" in goldSRC a few years back?
For me personally graphics will always take a back-seat versus a good game with "dated" graphics. Shiny with no real content or good game design, will just end up collecting dust on the shelf (that is if people still buy retail games <img src="http://members.home.nl/m.borgman/ns-forum/smileys/tongue.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" />)
If it looks that way to you then that is your inference...
The problem is that when you go with 'realistic', the game <b>will</b> become dated, graphically. As much as someone might say "but NS has marines fighting aliens in space so it's not realistic", we're talking about the art design - and it *does* strive for a sense of realism. Things that are graphically dated are harder to look at, and thus harder to play. Games that have a particular non-realistic artstyle stand the test of time much better. Mario? Tetris? Worms? All good. Who complains that they're dated? When I say that the criteria is flexibility, I'm asking, <b>how well</b> and <b>how easily</b> can you do what you want to do with this engine? That's an incredibly broad question - and incredibly subjective, it all depends on what you want to do. For example, Can this engine implement a feature you want in your game? Can this engine use the latest effects? Can you market this engine, or a game made with this engine?
I don't feel that, from what I have seen, the Spark engine for the not-<b>too</b>-distant future will fail the test in any of these regards.
But can the Art and Design teams deliver? That's the real question.
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited September 2010
lesigh... It "<u><b>looks like</b></u>" a suggestion, I'm not assuming it is one. And some people might think the OP is actually suggesting a engine change.
The real question concerning the engine is simply:
<i>How flexible and extensible is Spark?</i>
Something we can't judge with the currently available information, video's/screenshots or even the alpha release. You're making assumptions on an engine that isn't finished yet. And from what I've seen, the models/textures in the alpha release are of top-notch quality.
Rumor has it, they are modeling at a much higher poly/resolution then the models/textures we see ingame. Making a future high-poly pack a possibility if they ever wanted to do such a thing...
You're sending me mixed messages here. Be clear. Does it look like a suggestion to you? If it does, then that is your inference, one that I do not agree with. That's all. It doesn't look like a suggestion to me at all. Just a veeeeery long post - a rant, a concern, a question, but not a suggestion.
<i>Who</i>'s making assumptions? It <b>looks like</b> you didn't really read my post. (I'm inferring this from the fact that you think I'm making assumptions, and that you have somewhat touched on ideas that I have already expressed, without any kind of mental acknowledgement.)
What I'm really saying is, (from what I have seen/read/heard) it doesn't look like the engine will be an issue when it comes to becoming dated, in the near future (up until release and for quite some time after it) - but the art and possibly game design <b>will definitely be</b> an issue. (They are always an issue, with a 'realistic' game like NS.) So whether this game is marketable depends on the artists and the gameplay designer.
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited September 2010
<!--quoteo(post=1797967:date=Sep 8 2010, 10:26 PM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Sep 8 2010, 10:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1797967"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You're sending me mixed messages here. Be clear. Does it look like a suggestion to you? If it does, then that is your inference, one that I do not agree with. That's all. It doesn't look like a suggestion to me at all. Just a veeeeery long post - a rant, a concern, a question, but not a suggestion.
<i>Who</i>'s making assumptions? It <b>looks like</b> you didn't really read my post. (I'm inferring this from the fact that you think I'm making assumptions, and that you have somewhat touched on ideas that I have already expressed, without any kind of mental acknowledgement.)
What I'm really saying is, (from what I have seen/read/heard) it doesn't look like the engine will be an issue when it comes to becoming dated, in the near future (up until release and for quite some time after it) - but the art and possibly game design <b>will definitely be</b> an issue. (They are always an issue, with a 'realistic' game like NS.) So whether this game is marketable depends on the artists and the gameplay designer.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That one sentence I quoted... It looks like a suggestion, I was explaining why Wheeee (and probably others) could assume it was a suggestion for an engine change. I wasn't talking about myself <img src="http://members.home.nl/m.borgman/ns-forum/smileys/rolleyes.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Also I missed a small part in your post "I don't feel that", which I misread as "I do feel that". My mistake, I agree Spark is pretty solid and has a long future if it is flexible enough. Which it probably is.
<i>On a side-note (<b>Not a flame,</b> just an observation...)
Are you just intentionally nitpicking trough posts, to simply start an argument on arbitrary things? I've seen you misinterpret some posts and then blame them for not being clear. But if one reads those posts (even none-English speaking folk), it is pretty clear what they actually meant...
In fact, I was actually very clear about the part where people could misinterpreted the OP for suggesting an engine change (obvious sarcasm, unless my sarcasm meter is broken <img src="http://members.home.nl/m.borgman/ns-forum/smileys/tongue.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" />). Then you come in and assume, I was the one actually thinking the OP was suggesting an engine change... When I clearly used the words "looks like" quoted the word "suggestion" and even posted a tongue in cheek smiley with it.
That is a total of 3 indicators, which should have at least indicated I was just jerking your chain, so to speak...
Your posts are usually very flame-bait-ish (word?) and just turn this forum into a grim place. I am usually very tolerant of most things, but this behavior is just so, for lack of better word, WTFMAN <img src="http://members.home.nl/m.borgman/ns-forum/smileys/wtf.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" /></i>
Had anyone noticed that peentank wrote that "Half-life 3 is coming". WTF!!!! <img src="http://members.home.nl/m.borgman/ns-forum/smileys/wtf.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" /> With that sentence is enough.
Nah, like I said to someone else: I don't argue with people. I call it how I see it, and people argue with me. Also, I never misinterpret (unless it is deliberate, but I haven't done that here). If something isn't clear, it isn't clear. Notice that I'm not saying that I, myself, don't understand what they are saying. ;)
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1797976:date=Sep 8 2010, 11:17 PM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Sep 8 2010, 11:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1797976"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Nah, like I said to someone else: I don't argue with people. I call it how I see it, and people argue with me. Also, I never misinterpret (unless it is deliberate, but I haven't done that here). If something isn't clear, it isn't clear. Notice that I'm not saying that I, myself, don't understand what they are saying. ;)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I see what you did there <img src="http://members.home.nl/m.borgman/ns-forum/smileys/shifty.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" />
InsaneAnomalyJoin Date: 2002-05-13Member: 605Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Subnautica Developer, Pistachionauts, Future Perfect Developer
<!--quoteo(post=1797958:date=Sep 8 2010, 07:50 PM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Sep 8 2010, 07:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1797958"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But can the Art and Design teams deliver? That's the real question.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Comments
As for development priorities, this has been explained before, but we have different people working on different things. Gameplay tasks aren't being prioritised over technical ones, they're being handled by different people.
This isn't an amateur operation. Networking bugs are not going to be the end of NS2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thank you for clarifying that there are different people working on the technical than the ones working on the game play. I didn't know how small of a team was working on the game. It seemed weird to be working on gameplay elements while there are/were? core element issues. Which I know now is possible due to the fact that there is a team big enough and you have different specialists for the different areas of developement. Like I said, I am completely uneducated when it comes to the full procedure of making a game, especially from scratch.
I can't wait for the final release, and I am sure it will be an amazing game, that will continue to make me laugh over and over like the original. Can't wait! As soon as they release a date for BETA for people to play that pre-ordered it. I will pre-order it :D :D
EDIT:
A quick thought I had. What interests me now is, in my opinion, when you want to be part of a team to develop a game, which task(s) would you want. It seems to me, like the core programmers (network, engine, etc.) don't have as much of a rewarding job as say, the people who create the player models? I mean, the programmers do all the gritty work, and then the modelers comes in and gets to use their work to create their own ideas. Level design is awesome too. The programmers do all the dirty work, then the level designers come in, and make a cool level, and get all the credit. Its like hockey, when you win, its the forwards who get the credit, when you lose, its the defense mens fault (just an example) or baseball, when you win, its the hitters who won, when you lose, its the pitchers fault (once again, just an example, and not accurate at all, but some people look at it this way). We all know, each person contributes what they contribute, and without it, it wouldn't be complete. But I guess what I am trying to say is, why would someone want to be a programmer, when they could be a moddeler, or texturer, or level designer (lol, I know these are probably not the proper titles). I guess I could answer my own question by saying, they are better at one thing than the other right?
Personally, I would want to be the level designer.
I don't like programming, it's frustrating and horribly complicated, whereas art is easy, I always know what I need to make, although actually making it is harder because real life doesn't quite have the same special effects as my brain and it never looks as good, but then in my head it is actually many things at once so whenever I condense it down to one thing it always loses something.
But some people aren't like that, I talk to people who do arty stuff and they complain about artists block, which I have never ever had in my life, so apparently some people don't have images of cool stuff in their head all the time. And I also talk to programmers who find doing programming really satisfying, it's like making this huge thing that you built from the ground up, with all of these problems you had to solve and every time you do the thing gets bigger, and eventually you have this massive engine of logic and mathematics which does all this crazy stuff and you can go 'I build this, how badass am I?' Probably feels like a massive power trip. And certainly the problem solving you have to do must be amazingly stimulating for someone who likes mathematics and logic.
Some people are built to do different things. Everyone has their talents.
I don't like programming, it's frustrating and horribly complicated, whereas art is easy, I always know what I need to make, although actually making it is harder because real life doesn't quite have the same special effects as my brain and it never looks as good, but then in my head it is actually many things at once so whenever I condense it down to one thing it always loses something.
But some people aren't like that, I talk to people who do arty stuff and they complain about artists block, which I have never ever had in my life, so apparently some people don't have images of cool stuff in their head all the time. And I also talk to programmers who find doing programming really satisfying, it's like making this huge thing that you built from the ground up, with all of these problems you had to solve and every time you do the thing gets bigger, and eventually you have this massive engine of logic and mathematics which does all this crazy stuff and you can go 'I build this, how badass am I?' Probably feels like a massive power trip. And certainly the problem solving you have to do must be amazingly stimulating for someone who likes mathematics and logic.
Some people are built to do different things. Everyone has their talents.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm a programmer. I'd be an artist but every time I try to put what's in my head down on paper my hands decide that I need to make stickmen. I have what my music teacher called stupid fingers.
Would you rather set up the rules of the universe and watch it take birth from there or only take what you can understand of the universe and put it together to make something.
Essentially if you have a dream for a game - you want to be the programmer. They write the code that makes the story. The art designers fill in the space where our imagination would normally be left.
A long, eloquent argument does not equate to a good argument.
To any Dev that reads this thread, keep it up, don't let threads like this get you down, the silent majority on these forums is with you.
EDIT: Spelling
Thats not how game dev works. Programmers and artists create what their team leads tell them to. Team leads create what the game designer tells them to. Game designers create what production tells them to. Production passes on what Publishing wants the game to be like. The people with the money determine what the game is like. So basically if you have a dream for a game, get money.
exactly the model employed here
Also, here is my concern. I would love to pre-order this game, to help you guys out, but there is no set date to when I would have access to the game... So that isn't really helping convince me to buy it.
My main concern is, as time goes on, we know that this engine, and the game, is getting old, quick. With a game like Starcraft 2 that has been released, with the most amazing and engaging and lag free multi player environment. New Diablo 3 is coming. Half-life 3 is coming. The new WOW expansion is coming (wow sucks, i know). All these amazing next gen games are on their way. Natural-selection 2, yeah, i know its only 34.95 and not 49.99 like most games. But honestly, who is going to buy a game that looks like it should have been released in late 2007.
I know this is all speculation. But I am genuinely concerned. Natural-Selection the original was free, yet it had a small (but loyal) population, community. Now its been so many years, the game is no where NEAR being fully developed, we have at least another Year before its actually playable to any extent. You have no incentive at this point for people to pre-order the game, hence the (TBD) page.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Do you want a game that is released when it is ready and is what the developers wanted? or some junkfest quick high game like most recent games are?
I don't know about you but most games have very little replayability... take years to develop and cost an arm and a leg. Starcraft 2 is starcraft 1, with very little changed from the original formula, it still took a decade to be released and the single player was a weeks worth of play. Its a great game but hardly something to use as an example.
I don't know what world you live in but a month is not a long time in game development time, you just come off as entilted and impatient when you demand more information and start flinging doomsday predictions because the game isn't ready when you are.
<!--quoteo(post=1797130:date=Sep 1 2010, 06:14 PM:name=peentank)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (peentank @ Sep 1 2010, 06:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1797130"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I know at this point, you may not being working on your dime. But, on the loyal people who have supported you. That doesn't give you an excuse to not give an estimated release date. It doesn't give you the right to keep people completely in the dark about your MAJOR problem that you have right now that might ultimately be the end of this game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Excuse? major problem being that they graciously gave you access to an alpha and now you're making judgement on how it will fail and no-one will like it... if its good people will like it.
<!--quoteo(post=1797130:date=Sep 1 2010, 06:14 PM:name=peentank)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (peentank @ Sep 1 2010, 06:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1797130"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Every day that goes by at this point, is equivalent to a week in 2009. a month in 2008, 4 months in 2007 a year from 2004-2005-2006. in the sense that, its just getting old. Every day that passes at this point, is bringing that ultimate end that seems to near. That this will be in fact vaporware.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Very productive, because in gamer world delays are end of the world. Until the game is released and then everyone forgets. Ever heard of valve time? Did you mind waiting 12 years for starcraft? how about another year and a half for the second installment?
<!--quoteo(post=1797130:date=Sep 1 2010, 06:14 PM:name=peentank)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (peentank @ Sep 1 2010, 06:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1797130"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->With it already being a month with the alpha being released. With no indication on how the lag/fps issues are going. This seems to be quite a make it or break it moment. Its as good as the HL2 mod, No MORE ROOM IN HELL..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No indication? They've stated a few times in news updates that they are currently working on it and its not quite where they want it to be and they will release a new patch once its fixed, which they predict will be soon. Or did that information not suit your doomsday predictions and I want it now attitude?
<!--quoteo(post=1797130:date=Sep 1 2010, 06:14 PM:name=peentank)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (peentank @ Sep 1 2010, 06:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1797130"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Believe me, I love Natural-Selection as much as you guys do. I would love for this game to be released and have us all playing. However, we know the community will be small to begin with and will die off really fast. However, with these random delays, that keep getting longer and longer, The community will be even smaller and die off even faster. Its the sad truth....
OFF TO STARCRAFT 2 :D:D::D:D<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes because you sound like a very faithful and loyal customer. I understand your concern, but the way you communicate it is incredibly poor, and make very unproductive and uninformed statements.
Additionally, NS2 doesn't need to steal players from other games. Most gamers play multiple games.
Would you rather set up the rules of the universe and watch it take birth from there or only take what you can understand of the universe and put it together to make something.
Essentially if you have a dream for a game - you want to be the programmer. They write the code that makes the story. The art designers fill in the space where our imagination would normally be left.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
actually, its the animator that is god. modelers make models, programmers make rules, animators give life to static things.
I don't know about you but most games have very little replayability... take years to develop and cost an arm and a leg. Starcraft 2 is starcraft 1, with very little changed from the original formula, it still took a decade to be released and the single player was a weeks worth of play. Its a great game but hardly something to use as an example.
I don't know what world you live in but a month is not a long time in game development time, you just come off as entilted and impatient when you demand more information and start flinging doomsday predictions because the game isn't ready when you are.
Excuse? major problem being that they graciously gave you access to an alpha and now you're making judgement on how it will fail and no-one will like it... if its good people will like it.
Very productive, because in gamer world delays are end of the world. Until the game is released and then everyone forgets. Ever heard of valve time? Did you mind waiting 12 years for starcraft? how about another year and a half for the second installment?
No indication? They've stated a few times in news updates that they are currently working on it and its not quite where they want it to be and they will release a new patch once its fixed, which they predict will be soon. Or did that information not suit your doomsday predictions and I want it now attitude?
Yes because you sound like a very faithful and loyal customer. I understand your concern, but the way you communicate it is incredibly poor, and make very unproductive and uninformed statements.
Additionally, NS2 doesn't need to steal players from other games. Most gamers play multiple games.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
God? is that you lord?? PLEASE SHOW ME THE WAY!
Your argument about sc1 being sc2 is ridiculous. That is a simplification on how unclear you think and voids any validity in anything else you had to say.
If you would like, I could say that about NS1 and NS2 that you are supporting.
I wouldn't say that, because I am not as unfortunate as you.
I can't draw to save my life, hence why I use 3d packages, don't need clever hands to use them, just a clever head.
The 'god' if there is one on a dev team is the producer, given that they appoint everyone else on the team and lead the project as the whole, they also interface with the production company to get money, and spend a lot of time tying the programming and artistic sides together.
They also are the person who gets their name on the box at the end, if the company is so inclined, so will wright and sid meier would almost certainly be producers.
But then you could also have a company which works entirely differenty, games companies sometimes have odd structures, probably because they're generally full of odd people, so there's no concrete answer I suppose.
Your argument about sc1 being sc2 is ridiculous. That is a simplification on how unclear you think and voids any validity in anything else you had to say.
If you would like, I could say that about NS1 and NS2 that you are supporting.
I wouldn't say that, because I am not as unfortunate as you.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm really not sure why you bothered quoting the post to then not even address anything within in.
My opinion is different from yours, this voids any validity of anything I had to say...oh wait, this logic is "unfortunate".
For more topic related material read here:
I am of the opinion that specialisation is the way to go for efficiency, it also generally results in higher quality. its just easier to be really really good in one area of related skills.
It has also been pointed out that this is the practice used by UWE.
Maybe NS1 will be replaced by another game on my computer.
I've to little time to spend to dilute choices much further.
I know who you were replying to, I just didn't come to the same inference, and I thought your inference was a bit absurd.
This looks like a "suggestion" though <img src="http://members.home.nl/m.borgman/ns-forum/smileys/tongue.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" />
<!--quoteo(post=1797130:date=Sep 1 2010, 08:14 PM:name=peentank)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (peentank @ Sep 1 2010, 08:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1797130"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Maybe you guys should have stuck with the Half-life 2 engine, since it does power many MULTI PLAYER ONLY games.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Also what's with this doomsday speech about the engine being outdated... It is in development, meaning it is probably also lacking a few shiny shaders and stuff (but even without them it looks very nice)... And no, HL2 does not look better... It fakes most things it does and if you look closely you can see how obvious it does this. Heck it still doesn't have real dynamic lighting, L4D flashlight is close though. Not to mention the unoptimized stutter and fps issues a lot of people seem to have, even on very powerful rigs... And it likes to hog the CPU as well, which seems odd compared to other current gen engines...
Not to mention that bugs will be there in a "from scratch" <u><b>ALPHA VERSION</b></u> of the engine, these will get fixed. But mind you, Spark looks just as good as some other "big licensed" engines (even in it's uncompleted state)
Again, not coming to the same inference.
<!--quoteo(post=1797697:date=Sep 6 2010, 09:05 PM:name=Kouji_San)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kouji_San @ Sep 6 2010, 09:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1797697"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also what's with this doomsday speech about the engine being outdated... It is in development, meaning it is probably also lacking a few shiny shaders and stuff (but even without them it looks very nice)...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What makes an engine outdated anyway? In my opinion, the criteria would be a lack of flexibility. An inability to do the things you want to do with the engine.
What makes an engine outdated anyway? In my opinion, the criteria would be a lack of flexibility. An inability to do the things you want to do with the engine.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Keywords "looks like"
And indeed, a flexible engine has longevity. But most game engine are flexible enough to last a long time, that's why Source is still alive and kicking. Even if it does fake a few things, these things do look pretty good. Didn't some people even implement dynamic lighting or "dynamic shadows" in goldSRC a few years back?
For me personally graphics will always take a back-seat versus a good game with "dated" graphics. Shiny with no real content or good game design, will just end up collecting dust on the shelf (that is if people still buy retail games <img src="http://members.home.nl/m.borgman/ns-forum/smileys/tongue.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" />)
The problem is that when you go with 'realistic', the game <b>will</b> become dated, graphically. As much as someone might say "but NS has marines fighting aliens in space so it's not realistic", we're talking about the art design - and it *does* strive for a sense of realism. Things that are graphically dated are harder to look at, and thus harder to play.
Games that have a particular non-realistic artstyle stand the test of time much better. Mario? Tetris? Worms? All good. Who complains that they're dated?
When I say that the criteria is flexibility, I'm asking, <b>how well</b> and <b>how easily</b> can you do what you want to do with this engine? That's an incredibly broad question - and incredibly subjective, it all depends on what you want to do.
For example,
Can this engine implement a feature you want in your game?
Can this engine use the latest effects?
Can you market this engine, or a game made with this engine?
I don't feel that, from what I have seen, the Spark engine for the not-<b>too</b>-distant future will fail the test in any of these regards.
But can the Art and Design teams deliver? That's the real question.
The real question concerning the engine is simply:
<i>How flexible and extensible is Spark?</i>
Something we can't judge with the currently available information, video's/screenshots or even the alpha release. You're making assumptions on an engine that isn't finished yet. And from what I've seen, the models/textures in the alpha release are of top-notch quality.
Rumor has it, they are modeling at a much higher poly/resolution then the models/textures we see ingame. Making a future high-poly pack a possibility if they ever wanted to do such a thing...
<i>Who</i>'s making assumptions? It <b>looks like</b> you didn't really read my post. (I'm inferring this from the fact that you think I'm making assumptions, and that you have somewhat touched on ideas that I have already expressed, without any kind of mental acknowledgement.)
What I'm really saying is, (from what I have seen/read/heard) it doesn't look like the engine will be an issue when it comes to becoming dated, in the near future (up until release and for quite some time after it) - but the art and possibly game design <b>will definitely be</b> an issue. (They are always an issue, with a 'realistic' game like NS.) So whether this game is marketable depends on the artists and the gameplay designer.
<i>Who</i>'s making assumptions? It <b>looks like</b> you didn't really read my post. (I'm inferring this from the fact that you think I'm making assumptions, and that you have somewhat touched on ideas that I have already expressed, without any kind of mental acknowledgement.)
What I'm really saying is, (from what I have seen/read/heard) it doesn't look like the engine will be an issue when it comes to becoming dated, in the near future (up until release and for quite some time after it) - but the art and possibly game design <b>will definitely be</b> an issue. (They are always an issue, with a 'realistic' game like NS.) So whether this game is marketable depends on the artists and the gameplay designer.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That one sentence I quoted... It looks like a suggestion, I was explaining why Wheeee (and probably others) could assume it was a suggestion for an engine change. I wasn't talking about myself <img src="http://members.home.nl/m.borgman/ns-forum/smileys/rolleyes.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Also I missed a small part in your post "I don't feel that", which I misread as "I do feel that". My mistake, I agree Spark is pretty solid and has a long future if it is flexible enough. Which it probably is.
<i>On a side-note (<b>Not a flame,</b> just an observation...)
Are you just intentionally nitpicking trough posts, to simply start an argument on arbitrary things? I've seen you misinterpret some posts and then blame them for not being clear. But if one reads those posts (even none-English speaking folk), it is pretty clear what they actually meant...
In fact, I was actually very clear about the part where people could misinterpreted the OP for suggesting an engine change (obvious sarcasm, unless my sarcasm meter is broken <img src="http://members.home.nl/m.borgman/ns-forum/smileys/tongue.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" />). Then you come in and assume, I was the one actually thinking the OP was suggesting an engine change... When I clearly used the words "looks like" quoted the word "suggestion" and even posted a tongue in cheek smiley with it.
That is a total of 3 indicators, which should have at least indicated I was just jerking your chain, so to speak...
Your posts are usually very flame-bait-ish (word?) and just turn this forum into a grim place. I am usually very tolerant of most things, but this behavior is just so, for lack of better word, WTFMAN <img src="http://members.home.nl/m.borgman/ns-forum/smileys/wtf.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" /></i>
With that sentence is enough.
I see what you did there <img src="http://members.home.nl/m.borgman/ns-forum/smileys/shifty.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Yes.
The name, join date, post count, original post matter give it away.