<!--quoteo(post=1794852:date=Aug 18 2010, 03:21 AM:name=FocusedWolf)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (FocusedWolf @ Aug 18 2010, 03:21 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1794852"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What if we ditch E-building and add the solve-the-puzzle-to-build thing that you do as a tech in Alien Swarm.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then I'm probably never playing the game because I hate stupid minigames in multiplayer. I tolerate them in slow paced singleplayer games where the game freezes while I do it, but I will not play a game that expects me to do them while the game is running and certainly not when people are likely to shoot at me.
<!--quoteo(post=1794851:date=Aug 18 2010, 03:19 AM:name=Nicksaerian)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nicksaerian @ Aug 18 2010, 03:19 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1794851"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Atheists vs. Theologists is to religious conversations as w + mouse1 vs. holding e is to this conversation. You're never going to agree. The compromise is simple... allow building for those who wish to build but also let MACs build for those who wish to run off and pewpewpew. Issue resolved.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As I keep saying that isn't a solution, because it puts enjoyable gameplay at direct odds with teamplay, I want to support the team, to do that I have to build when instructed, I don't want to do boring crap, so give me a way to do the team-supporting stuff that isn't boring crap.
If you really want to be vulnerable there isn't anything stopping you staring at the res tower and not shooting anything while the tool or MAC builds. If that's your idea of fun it shouldn't be hard to make it a self-imposed challenge.
<!--quoteo(post=1792983:date=Aug 9 2010, 09:35 AM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Aug 9 2010, 09:35 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1792983"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But if you do have teamplay I don't consider one person building and one person defending to be teamplay, you don't work together, you do two entirely separate tasks next to each other, which isn't the same thing, two people defending on the other hand is teamplay, because there is a lot of interplay between your actions, you can coordinate and divide your efforts, and change them depending on the situation, with E building there isn't any of that, one person builds and the other defends, you don't ever really need to change that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> seriously, how often do you hear people delegating arcs and tasks when defending a point? cant say ive ever heard it while playing ns1. if 2 people cover a point they usually get tunnel vision when they hear a sound and face the most likely direction of approach.
<!--quoteo(post=1795137:date=Aug 19 2010, 02:46 PM:name=Loey)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Loey @ Aug 19 2010, 02:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1795137"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->seriously, how often do you hear people delegating arcs and tasks when defending a point? cant say ive ever heard it while playing ns1. if 2 people cover a point they usually get tunnel vision when they hear a sound and face the most likely direction of approach.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Very rarely, but I do usually see people covering a lot of different arcs.
It isn't something you neccesarily have to communicate through speech, you can usually just watch what others are doing and adjust your actions to compliment them.
Generally if nobody is watching a particular direction I will check it, I assume most good teamplayers do similar things. I'll probably focus on likely directions of attack but I'll spread out away from the others a bit and make sure I can fill any gaps in the defence.
It's not that unusual, I know a couple of other people who do it.
I don't ever really see people say 'you build I'll shoot' either, they just do it, so overt communication is not really neccesary for teamplay by any definition.
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited August 2010
Pointless thread is pointless...
You do have the option not to build, just go stand in a corner and play the game like you want. Heck the MAC's will do the job for you, but now that building is back you have the option to build or not to build...
See, while one player wants to build, you can cover that player with your weapons. Quite similar to NS1 actually. You didn't have to build there either if your team mates did that for you. With the MAC you still have the option, but the commander isn't completely dependent on marines anymore and also doesn't need a base monkey either...
This place is starting to get boring with all the circlestrafing topics floating around <img src="http://members.home.nl/m.borgman/ns-forum/smileys/youreallwrong.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" />
<!--quoteo(post=1795196:date=Aug 19 2010, 08:06 PM:name=Kouji_San)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kouji_San @ Aug 19 2010, 08:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1795196"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Pointless thread is pointless...
You do have the option not to build, just go stand in a corner and play the game like you want. Heck the MAC's will do the job for you, but now that building is back you have the option to build or not to build...
See, while one player wants to build, you can cover that player with your weapons. Quite similar to NS1 actually. You didn't have to build there either if your team mates did that for you. With the MAC you still have the option, but the commander isn't completely dependent on marines anymore and also doesn't need a base monkey either...
This place is starting to get boring with all the circlestrafing topics floating around <img src="http://members.home.nl/m.borgman/ns-forum/smileys/youreallwrong.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Person who didn't read the thread didn't read the thread.
I pointed out that in order to play the game as a cooperative and intelligent player, I will have to build sometimes, but as I really don't like building I'd like the mechanic to be changed so that I can do it without it being annoying.
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited August 2010
Oh I read your post alright, but what you suggest is similar to a portable MAC. I was just putting emphasis on you and others who hate building, that it is optional...
What you are suggesting is nothing more then a "throw the people who like to build a bone". It completely ignores the actual building aspect of what building is all about.
I mean really? Throw on a tool that builds for you (MAC anyone?) and go stand in your corner with your weapon out... That is just the same as having no building option at all... All it does is give the marines a faster building time...
---- The only change that might be interesting is that suggestion made about buying a tool for building, while also being able to repair armor and maybe weld doors/vents open and shut (which works in a similar way as the welder from NS1 for building and the other stuff. You'd have to give up a weapon for this, but in the end turns you into a support class...
schkorpioI can mspaintJoin Date: 2003-05-23Member: 16635Members
i've always liked the idea of the commander spawn of a box/crate - when marines (or macs) get near it the crate collapses spilling the contents - which is of course the physical components that make up a structure.
The marines then have to put it together the right way (garry's mod style)- kind of jenga - a 3rd puzzle (but not as sensitive, you'd have things snap into place).
you put the legs into place first, then the middle bit, then the extension parts, etc etc - say each building would have 8 parts minumum, the longer you want the building to take to build, the more parts it has.
this means, that more marines can build something quickly, than one marine putting it together piece buy piece.
this method achieve 2 things, 1 the guarding and vunerability gameplay, and 2 the light puzzle element.
and 3 it would look cool (no other game has this)
you can't shoot while holding a piece of the structure.
(maybe macs would have a magnet that drags the peices together in the right order to save animation and sequences - so it looks like its backwards footage of something falling apart)
schkorpioI can mspaintJoin Date: 2003-05-23Member: 16635Members
and of course each building would have different components (since they look different) which would keep things interesting.
ALSO! : players that have built before, would have a slight advantage over new players, since they would be familiar with the building process - so its got a little bit of a skill curve in it
<!--quoteo(post=1795349:date=Aug 20 2010, 03:44 AM:name=Kouji_San)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kouji_San @ Aug 20 2010, 03:44 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1795349"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I mean really? Throw on a tool that builds for you (MAC anyone?) and go stand in your corner with your weapon out... That is just the same as having no building option at all... All it does is give the marines a faster building time...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
...What?
How on earth is having THE OPTION TO BUILD AS A MARINE the same as NOT BEING ABLE TO BUILD AS A MARINE.
I also didn't say it builds faster, there's no reason why it should.
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited August 2010
Simple, because this tool you're on about is just the same as having a MAC there. It removes the marine from the building aspect. And with faster building, I meant for the marine team with clamp tools and MAC's building together.
But it still removes the marine from the action of building, if aliens come over to harass or attack. You can simply engage them, while this tool keeps on building. That was a big part of building and this negates that...
Really... What is so damn boring about the <b>optional</b> building anyway, I really do not see this issue... You build/can't move, while listening for alien movement. As soon as you know something is near, you simply get out your weapon and start shooting. The aliens could kill you or at least slow down the construction time. Again, this was a big part of building and team interaction, which worked great. So why mess with a proven concept...
Because it is, as I said, boring. I didn't enjoy doing it in the slightest. As a marine I'm always vulnerable because aliens have an annoying tendency to be smart and ambush you. I don't need to be building something to feel threatened in the game. And sitting staring at a resource tower <i>is just plain boring.</i> It's less interesting than your normal activity because normally you move around and listen, you make progress, whereas sitting waiting for a building to finish is not fun, especially when you need to sit still while doing it. A tool is a concession made simply because marines may need to build sometimes, but it is also slightly more interesting because you can at least be a bit proactive when defending the ref, you can move around a bit and look for aliens as well as listening. I would much rather marines not be able to build at all and the AI do all the building, I simply accept that that may not be possible.
I can accept that there is some neccesity to having marines able to build because the AI for the MACs might not be entirely up to scratch in all situations, and the last thing you want is for that to break the game, but there is no reason whatsoever that I should be expected to do some boring-ass hold-button-while-staring-at-blurry-texture activity in order to provide that failsafe.
Marines may need to be able to build, but they do not need to do it entirely manually, it should at least have some semblance of entertainment to it.
If you really really love doing boring crap then you can stare at the ref while using the tool, but for those of us who don't find that entertaining, don't expect every marine to do that.
schkorpioI can mspaintJoin Date: 2003-05-23Member: 16635Members
edited August 2010
lol you both are just saying the same thing consistantly longer posts - you obviously have different preferences
now did either of you read my post? its kind of like a combination of both - gets rid of "boring" aspect of building, but still keeps the marine building intact :)
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1795619:date=Aug 21 2010, 01:29 PM:name=schkorpio)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (schkorpio @ Aug 21 2010, 01:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1795619"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->lol you both are just saying the same thing consistantly longer posts - you obviously have different preferences
now did either of you read my post? its kind of like a combination of both - gets rid of "boring" aspect of building, but still keeps the marine building intact :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeah, but I had to rephrase mah post as it was misunderstood <img src="http://members.home.nl/m.borgman/ns-forum/smileys/tongue.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Minigames, reminds me of the repair-welding in that NASA game. That'll become tedious if you have to do this for every building o.O" Besides nanites > manual assembly <img src="http://members.home.nl/m.borgman/ns-forum/smileys/biggrin.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" />
i understand your complaint about the building however there are a few points which make it rather unimportant.
currently: you stand around holding e listening for enemies hear one and ready yourself and start fighting
your way: you stand around listening for enemies hear on and ready yourself and start fighting
i understand you remove the holding e and staring at a boring spot but i'm not sure its really that big an issue. mainly the problem is stuff would start getting built crazy fast because if you had 4 marines standing around now where before you'd have 1 or 2 marines building and the others cover now you'd have 4 building and covering at the same time, so that would require a fix (the building takes longer the bonus is less per person or something but again its a time consuming fix)
you'd make it much easier to build it high risk areas, part of hold e and build is too spot people from doing things like having 4 marines in the enemy base and the commander drops a turret and an ip or something, things that you would never do in a hold e and build mechanic but which people are capable of defending and building it now becomes a legit concern that the commander drops a turret and then they all start the build real quick, bam pretty soon your turret farming in the enemy base because there being built faster than the enemy can take them out.
so while you say oh well it wouldnt change anything except that now i can do something besides just build, well thats a big change.
This is a cumbersome discussion. Chris0132: I think everyone has understood your idea very well by now but it seems some people still don't like it. E building is an essential gameplay aspect of NS1. The developers didn't want the marines to rush in somewhere, start the building process and then continue fighting. Its meant to distract a number of marines from fighting, exposing them to attacks and with that giving base building more of a strategic component (where will i build it) and not just a tactical one (how will i build it). As a NS player you are a unit in a RTS game. Actually i find it very thrilling to build something in NS1 all alone, not knowing if there are aliens around. The developers are giving you the drone at least so you don't have to do all the work alone anymore. Hopefully this will not cut the connection between strategy and tactic that made NS1 gameplay so unique.
PS: In an early post you explained what teamplay not is and how funny you nearly succeeded in explaining what it actually is: Let different people do different jobs.
No. Because the whole point of using is the intelligent timing with it. When you make the decision to build, you're prone to attacks. It takes experience to know when to build, from which direction to build, espcially against good players.
Comments
Then I'm probably never playing the game because I hate stupid minigames in multiplayer. I tolerate them in slow paced singleplayer games where the game freezes while I do it, but I will not play a game that expects me to do them while the game is running and certainly not when people are likely to shoot at me.
<!--quoteo(post=1794851:date=Aug 18 2010, 03:19 AM:name=Nicksaerian)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nicksaerian @ Aug 18 2010, 03:19 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1794851"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Atheists vs. Theologists is to religious conversations as w + mouse1 vs. holding e is to this conversation. You're never going to agree. The compromise is simple... allow building for those who wish to build but also let MACs build for those who wish to run off and pewpewpew. Issue resolved.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As I keep saying that isn't a solution, because it puts enjoyable gameplay at direct odds with teamplay, I want to support the team, to do that I have to build when instructed, I don't want to do boring crap, so give me a way to do the team-supporting stuff that isn't boring crap.
If you really want to be vulnerable there isn't anything stopping you staring at the res tower and not shooting anything while the tool or MAC builds. If that's your idea of fun it shouldn't be hard to make it a self-imposed challenge.
seriously, how often do you hear people delegating arcs and tasks when defending a point? cant say ive ever heard it while playing ns1. if 2 people cover a point they usually get tunnel vision when they hear a sound and face the most likely direction of approach.
Very rarely, but I do usually see people covering a lot of different arcs.
It isn't something you neccesarily have to communicate through speech, you can usually just watch what others are doing and adjust your actions to compliment them.
Generally if nobody is watching a particular direction I will check it, I assume most good teamplayers do similar things. I'll probably focus on likely directions of attack but I'll spread out away from the others a bit and make sure I can fill any gaps in the defence.
It's not that unusual, I know a couple of other people who do it.
I don't ever really see people say 'you build I'll shoot' either, they just do it, so overt communication is not really neccesary for teamplay by any definition.
You do have the option not to build, just go stand in a corner and play the game like you want. Heck the MAC's will do the job for you, but now that building is back you have the option to build or not to build...
See, while one player wants to build, you can cover that player with your weapons. Quite similar to NS1 actually. You didn't have to build there either if your team mates did that for you. With the MAC you still have the option, but the commander isn't completely dependent on marines anymore and also doesn't need a base monkey either...
This place is starting to get boring with all the circlestrafing topics floating around <img src="http://members.home.nl/m.borgman/ns-forum/smileys/youreallwrong.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" />
You do have the option not to build, just go stand in a corner and play the game like you want. Heck the MAC's will do the job for you, but now that building is back you have the option to build or not to build...
See, while one player wants to build, you can cover that player with your weapons. Quite similar to NS1 actually. You didn't have to build there either if your team mates did that for you. With the MAC you still have the option, but the commander isn't completely dependent on marines anymore and also doesn't need a base monkey either...
This place is starting to get boring with all the circlestrafing topics floating around <img src="http://members.home.nl/m.borgman/ns-forum/smileys/youreallwrong.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Person who didn't read the thread didn't read the thread.
I pointed out that in order to play the game as a cooperative and intelligent player, I will have to build sometimes, but as I really don't like building I'd like the mechanic to be changed so that I can do it without it being annoying.
What you are suggesting is nothing more then a "throw the people who like to build a bone". It completely ignores the actual building aspect of what building is all about.
I mean really? Throw on a tool that builds for you (MAC anyone?) and go stand in your corner with your weapon out... That is just the same as having no building option at all... All it does is give the marines a faster building time...
----
The only change that might be interesting is that suggestion made about buying a tool for building, while also being able to repair armor and maybe weld doors/vents open and shut (which works in a similar way as the welder from NS1 for building and the other stuff. You'd have to give up a weapon for this, but in the end turns you into a support class...
The marines then have to put it together the right way (garry's mod style)- kind of jenga - a 3rd puzzle (but not as sensitive, you'd have things snap into place).
you put the legs into place first, then the middle bit, then the extension parts, etc etc - say each building would have 8 parts minumum, the longer you want the building to take to build, the more parts it has.
this means, that more marines can build something quickly, than one marine putting it together piece buy piece.
this method achieve 2 things, 1 the guarding and vunerability gameplay, and 2 the light puzzle element.
and 3 it would look cool (no other game has this)
you can't shoot while holding a piece of the structure.
(maybe macs would have a magnet that drags the peices together in the right order to save animation and sequences - so it looks like its backwards footage of something falling apart)
ALSO! : players that have built before, would have a slight advantage over new players, since they would be familiar with the building process - so its got a little bit of a skill curve in it
...What?
How on earth is having THE OPTION TO BUILD AS A MARINE the same as NOT BEING ABLE TO BUILD AS A MARINE.
I also didn't say it builds faster, there's no reason why it should.
But it still removes the marine from the action of building, if aliens come over to harass or attack. You can simply engage them, while this tool keeps on building. That was a big part of building and this negates that...
Really... What is so damn boring about the <b>optional</b> building anyway, I really do not see this issue... You build/can't move, while listening for alien movement. As soon as you know something is near, you simply get out your weapon and start shooting. The aliens could kill you or at least slow down the construction time. Again, this was a big part of building and team interaction, which worked great. So why mess with a proven concept...
I can accept that there is some neccesity to having marines able to build because the AI for the MACs might not be entirely up to scratch in all situations, and the last thing you want is for that to break the game, but there is no reason whatsoever that I should be expected to do some boring-ass hold-button-while-staring-at-blurry-texture activity in order to provide that failsafe.
Marines may need to be able to build, but they do not need to do it entirely manually, it should at least have some semblance of entertainment to it.
If you really really love doing boring crap then you can stare at the ref while using the tool, but for those of us who don't find that entertaining, don't expect every marine to do that.
now did either of you read my post? its kind of like a combination of both - gets rid of "boring" aspect of building, but still keeps the marine building intact :)
now did either of you read my post? its kind of like a combination of both - gets rid of "boring" aspect of building, but still keeps the marine building intact :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, but I had to rephrase mah post as it was misunderstood <img src="http://members.home.nl/m.borgman/ns-forum/smileys/tongue.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Minigames, reminds me of the repair-welding in that NASA game. That'll become tedious if you have to do this for every building o.O" Besides nanites > manual assembly <img src="http://members.home.nl/m.borgman/ns-forum/smileys/biggrin.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" />
currently:
you stand around holding e listening for enemies
hear one and ready yourself and start fighting
your way:
you stand around listening for enemies
hear on and ready yourself and start fighting
i understand you remove the holding e and staring at a boring spot but i'm not sure its really that big an issue.
mainly the problem is stuff would start getting built crazy fast because if you had 4 marines standing around now where before you'd have 1 or 2 marines building and the others cover now you'd have 4 building and covering at the same time, so that would require a fix (the building takes longer the bonus is less per person or something but again its a time consuming fix)
you'd make it much easier to build it high risk areas, part of hold e and build is too spot people from doing things like having 4 marines in the enemy base and the commander drops a turret and an ip or something, things that you would never do in a hold e and build mechanic but which people are capable of defending and building it now becomes a legit concern that the commander drops a turret and then they all start the build real quick, bam pretty soon your turret farming in the enemy base because there being built faster than the enemy can take them out.
so while you say oh well it wouldnt change anything except that now i can do something besides just build, well thats a big change.
Chris0132: I think everyone has understood your idea very well by now but it seems some people still don't like it. E building is an essential gameplay aspect of NS1. The developers didn't want the marines to rush in somewhere, start the building process and then continue fighting. Its meant to distract a number of marines from fighting, exposing them to attacks and with that giving base building more of a strategic component (where will i build it) and not just a tactical one (how will i build it). As a NS player you are a unit in a RTS game. Actually i find it very thrilling to build something in NS1 all alone, not knowing if there are aliens around. The developers are giving you the drone at least so you don't have to do all the work alone anymore. Hopefully this will not cut the connection between strategy and tactic that made NS1 gameplay so unique.
PS: In an early post you explained what teamplay not is and how funny you nearly succeeded in explaining what it actually is: Let different people do different jobs.
That's nothin'<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?act=findpost&pid=1599235" target="_blank">!</a>