<!--quoteo(post=1791804:date=Aug 4 2010, 06:19 PM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Aug 4 2010, 06:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1791804"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I agree with this. While the skulk needs offensive tools, skulks having the current leap from the start ruins the early game skulk vs. lmg we all know and love from NS1. I like that the devs are trying to put more focus on the skulk vs. marine gameplay, but when all those people told them what they liked the most was skulk vs. marine gameplay, I don't think anyone was talking about leapskulk vs. marine gameplay. Leap should be an upgrade, a costly one at that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> this. 1 hive leap vs. marine ruins ns' basic gameplay. It removes all need for skulks to be sneaky and discourages alien teamwork.
<!--quoteo(post=1792938:date=Aug 8 2010, 04:42 PM:name=Thief)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Thief @ Aug 8 2010, 04:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1792938"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Skulks should be able to leap off of any surface they come in contact with, including while airborne after the first leap. People are arguing that the old air leap of the HL1 engine allowed more "skill" because it let skulks pretty much move and turn wherever they want on a dime, including when floating in midair. Don't you think it would take more "skill" to plan your leap attacks 2 or 3 jumps in advance (Leap from the floor towards this wall, then leap again off the ceiling, then back down on to their heads)?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Depends a bit. On the other hand spamming isn't really cool, it's part of the reason why NS1 leapskulking isn't that exiting either. Then again skulk needs to be able to adapt extremely quickly, be somewhat unpredictable and so on. If marines are moving around even one bit, you're not going to have more than one leap in advanced roughly planned out and you're not going to have more than one leap under decent marine aiming anyway. Planning out stops being cool at the point where you're too tied to the original one instead of having a dynamic flow of decisions.
I'm still having some trouble how they are going to sort out the leap 1st gameplay in the first place. There are so many design questions unanswered that I'm not even going to take a guess how the midair leap is going to affect everything on way or the other. They have to add some kind of extra punch to the leapskulking if it's to stay as the main form of early game fighting and so far we haven't heard much of it.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->this. 1 hive leap vs. marine ruins ns' basic gameplay. It removes all need for skulks to be sneaky and discourages alien teamwork.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think it has got teamwork of it's own in a way, which is basically a good addition to the diversity. However, it's nowhere close to the awesomeness of early game style and stays bearable mostly because it hasn't been played all that much until now. It needs heavy rework to be able to stand out as the main body of gameplay, if it's possible at all.
What can you do though? Leap hive1 helps water-down movement skills and stealth for starting skulks. I don't understand the need to break a part flawless fundamentals, but hey we can only wait and see. The leap in Alpha feels so gimmicky, and not being able to leap mid air just adds to the simplification. At this rate we could just end up with a completely different game that uses similar art+design as our only means to help identify with it. I am feel a bit pessimistic today. ><
<!--quoteo(post=1791391:date=Aug 3 2010, 06:50 PM:name=Kouji_San)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kouji_San @ Aug 3 2010, 06:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1791391"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Skulk creates little pockets of bacteria underneath his claws when leaping, from which he pushes off into another direction <img src="http://members.home.nl/m.borgman/ns-forum/smileys/youreallwrong.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> lolol The physics behind that makes no sense when you think of the mass of the skulk vs the bacteria. Idk who came up with that idea, but they should have take a science class or two instead of that 1 extra art class : /
This is how I feel the mid-air-leap could be <!--coloro:#FFA500--><span style="color:#FFA500"><!--/coloro-->resolved/explained/balanced<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->.
For balancing purposes it would only be available in mid-game, you could have it so that T1 leaping enabled from game start only allows you to leap once of the ground and also to leap when in close proximity to a surface so it could be explained away with an animation.
Then at T2 mid-air-leap is enabled as either a a default upgrade, commander upgrade or player evolution upgrade, and that it is in fact a mini-blink ability tied in with the skulks jump. So the mid-air-leap would have a similar effect as the Fade blink, but would only last for a split second as opposed to the Fade's blink. So the mini-blink is what allows the skulk to change momentum/direction in mid-air. So skulk jumps, jumps again, *poof* model disappears for a split secon (same particle effect as fade blink, only less developed), reappears again in roughly same spot, but has changed orientation of model and velocity to whatever direction player was aiming when mid-air-jumping.
I'm going to thumbs down the midair leap as well. I remember it in NS1 and it looked hokey there as well.
Some people had some good ideas on how leap could be upgraded though. Just upgrading to a bigger leap or a charged leap (you hold the trigger longer) would be a welcome addition to the skulk's arsenal.
Then in game instead of wishing it was the HL1 engine you would be begging your commander to give you the upgraded leap. Just so you could bite that marine (who keeps killing you) in the face...and he never forgets your handle.
Instead of this "Bring back the old thingamajig" attitude that people take why not come up with fresh ideas for upgrades. Remember this is an RTS, which when played well keeps buffing your base fighting units (marine, skulk).
The more options for upgrades makes it more interesting.
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1801981:date=Oct 19 2010, 04:33 AM:name=social3ngin33rin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (social3ngin33rin @ Oct 19 2010, 04:33 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1801981"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->lolol The physics behind that makes no sense when you think of the mass of the skulk vs the bacteria. Idk who came up with that idea, but they should have take a science class or two instead of that 1 extra art class : /<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> If this is addressed at me (instead of the NS1 leap mechanics). Maybe you should take some classes in sarcasm, because if you took that seriously you seriously fail at sarcasm <img src="http://members.home.nl/m.borgman/ns-forum/smileys/tongue.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" />
However since you brought up a point to use physics as a counter argument. How do we know what bacteria does or how much it weighs. Heck it might even be possible for the skulk to change it's inertia on the fly, we canae know this without further testing. What's that? It's a game, oh crud...
<span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'>I'm sorry if some of you lot their sarcasm meter just blew up</span>
I always thought leap was a compromise for how difficult it was to wall walk on uneven surfaces that often you fell off because of bad implementation (Probably more to do with the engine than coding I expect).
As for whether it is realistic or not, we are talking about a game with aliens right?
<!--quoteo(post=1802049:date=Oct 19 2010, 05:40 PM:name=Racer1)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Racer1 @ Oct 19 2010, 05:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1802049"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I find it especially annoying when you are moving down steps, etc. and leap doesn't work because you happen to be a few inches off the ground.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Dude that sounds more like a bug. Are you saying it didn't work walking down steps?
<!--quoteo(post=1793112:date=Aug 9 2010, 09:49 AM:name=QuadLMGkill)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (QuadLMGkill @ Aug 9 2010, 09:49 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1793112"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What can you do though? Leap hive1 helps water-down movement skills and stealth for starting skulks. I don't understand the need to break a part flawless fundamentals, but hey we can only wait and see. <b>The leap in Alpha feels so gimmicky, and not being able to leap mid air just adds to the simplification.</b> At this rate we could just end up with a completely different game that uses similar art+design as our only means to help identify with it. I am feel a bit pessimistic today. ><<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How is taking away mid air leap simplifying? I think you have it backwards. Lets see.... The lack of needing to be on the ground. That is one less requirement needed to leap.
Needing to be on the ground. That is adding a requirement. This makes the act of leaping more complex. You actually have to make sure you're on the ground instead of just being able to spam leap at will.
I think this is all just a big issue of people wanting it how it was. Which I can understand. But half of these arguments are just bad... Should just say, "I want it how it was because I don't like change." I hate change too sometimes but this is one that I am willing to trust them with because as someone else has said, it could help the game look more polished. Being able to leap while in mid air can, to the unbiased/new viewer, look like a bug and seem silly.
"it felt wrong so it should be changed back." Of course it is going to feel "wrong", its different. But give it a chance. Wait for more testing, approach it as a new feature and don't complain just because something is different.
I enjoyed the leap as it was, but if you go about every aspect of the game with that same mindset then you're asking for a reskinned NS1. NS1 was awesome, but lets play around with their NS2 for a while before we complain too much. If its negatively affecting gameplay, then we will post our arguments of why the addition of mid-air leap would make the game better. I know they want our ideas and suggestions but at this point it is all just fear of change and no incite as to what it will actually be like in gameplay.
By using leap while being in midair you could pull off some interesting moves. But being able or not being able to use leap in midair isn't even the real problem; leap shouldn't be a hive1 ability in the first place
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1802121:date=Oct 20 2010, 01:14 PM:name=enigmatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (enigmatic @ Oct 20 2010, 01:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1802121"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->By using leap while being in midair you could pull off some interesting moves. But being able or not being able to use leap in midair isn't even the real problem; leap shouldn't be a hive1 ability in the first place<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> They probably made it so (leap and bellyslide), because marines now have sprint.
<!--quoteo(post=1802132:date=Oct 20 2010, 08:45 PM:name=Kouji_San)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kouji_San @ Oct 20 2010, 08:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1802132"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->They probably made it so (leap and bellyslide), because marines now have sprint.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> As if turning back to the enemy ever brought results it is a terrible movement skill as well.
<!--quoteo(post=1802135:date=Oct 20 2010, 02:20 PM:name=TrC)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TrC @ Oct 20 2010, 02:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1802135"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As if turning back to the enemy ever brought results it is a terrible movement skill as well.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How about getting somewhere quicker to help your teammates or trying to chase someone down.
Don't know if this has been said already but does anyone else feel the way I do about leap keeping its momentum? In Ns1 when you would land you would keep your speed created by the leap. It makes sense that way. In the alpha when you land back on the ground you stick to that spot. Just a matter of keeping movements a little smoother that's all. -Not sure if they purposefully did that or not
If you don't make them leap IN the air, make it so that consecutive leaps make you faster. Imagine 5 skulks coming down a cooridor, leaping wall to ceiling to floor in order to gain momentum to come at you FASTER. That's the kind of excitement I'm looking for :)
Comments
this. 1 hive leap vs. marine ruins ns' basic gameplay. It removes all need for skulks to be sneaky and discourages alien teamwork.
Depends a bit. On the other hand spamming isn't really cool, it's part of the reason why NS1 leapskulking isn't that exiting either. Then again skulk needs to be able to adapt extremely quickly, be somewhat unpredictable and so on. If marines are moving around even one bit, you're not going to have more than one leap in advanced roughly planned out and you're not going to have more than one leap under decent marine aiming anyway. Planning out stops being cool at the point where you're too tied to the original one instead of having a dynamic flow of decisions.
I'm still having some trouble how they are going to sort out the leap 1st gameplay in the first place. There are so many design questions unanswered that I'm not even going to take a guess how the midair leap is going to affect everything on way or the other. They have to add some kind of extra punch to the leapskulking if it's to stay as the main form of early game fighting and so far we haven't heard much of it.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->this. 1 hive leap vs. marine ruins ns' basic gameplay. It removes all need for skulks to be sneaky and discourages alien teamwork.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think it has got teamwork of it's own in a way, which is basically a good addition to the diversity. However, it's nowhere close to the awesomeness of early game style and stays bearable mostly because it hasn't been played all that much until now. It needs heavy rework to be able to stand out as the main body of gameplay, if it's possible at all.
lolol
The physics behind that makes no sense when you think of the mass of the skulk vs the bacteria.
Idk who came up with that idea, but they should have take a science class or two instead of that 1 extra art class : /
For balancing purposes it would only be available in mid-game, you could have it so that T1 leaping enabled from game start only allows you to leap once of the ground and also to leap when in close proximity to a surface so it could be explained away with an animation.
Then at T2 mid-air-leap is enabled as either a a default upgrade, commander upgrade or player evolution upgrade, and that it is in fact a mini-blink ability tied in with the skulks jump. So the mid-air-leap would have a similar effect as the Fade blink, but would only last for a split second as opposed to the Fade's blink. So the mini-blink is what allows the skulk to change momentum/direction in mid-air. So skulk jumps, jumps again, *poof* model disappears for a split secon (same particle effect as fade blink, only less developed), reappears again in roughly same spot, but has changed orientation of model and velocity to whatever direction player was aiming when mid-air-jumping.
I remember it in NS1 and it looked hokey there as well.
Some people had some good ideas on how leap could be upgraded though.
Just upgrading to a bigger leap or a charged leap (you hold the trigger longer) would be a welcome addition to the skulk's arsenal.
Then in game instead of wishing it was the HL1 engine you would be begging your commander to give you the upgraded leap.
Just so you could bite that marine (who keeps killing you) in the face...and he never forgets your handle.
Instead of this "Bring back the old thingamajig" attitude that people take
why not come up with fresh ideas for upgrades.
Remember this is an RTS, which when played well keeps buffing your base fighting units (marine, skulk).
The more options for upgrades makes it more interesting.
The physics behind that makes no sense when you think of the mass of the skulk vs the bacteria.
Idk who came up with that idea, but they should have take a science class or two instead of that 1 extra art class : /<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If this is addressed at me (instead of the NS1 leap mechanics). Maybe you should take some classes in sarcasm, because if you took that seriously you seriously fail at sarcasm <img src="http://members.home.nl/m.borgman/ns-forum/smileys/tongue.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" />
However since you brought up a point to use physics as a counter argument. How do we know what bacteria does or how much it weighs. Heck it might even be possible for the skulk to change it's inertia on the fly, we canae know this without further testing. What's that? It's a game, oh crud...
<span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'>I'm sorry if some of you lot their sarcasm meter just blew up</span>
As for whether it is realistic or not, we are talking about a game with aliens right?
I find it especially annoying when you are moving down steps, etc. and leap doesn't work because you happen to be a few inches off the ground.
As for limitations, I think that only a single leap in the air (before touching ground) should be allowed.
Dude that sounds more like a bug.
Are you saying it didn't work walking down steps?
How is taking away mid air leap simplifying? I think you have it backwards. Lets see.... The lack of needing to be on the ground. That is one less requirement needed to leap.
Needing to be on the ground. That is adding a requirement. This makes the act of leaping more complex. You actually have to make sure you're on the ground instead of just being able to spam leap at will.
I think this is all just a big issue of people wanting it how it was. Which I can understand. But half of these arguments are just bad... Should just say, "I want it how it was because I don't like change." I hate change too sometimes but this is one that I am willing to trust them with because as someone else has said, it could help the game look more polished. Being able to leap while in mid air can, to the unbiased/new viewer, look like a bug and seem silly.
"it felt wrong so it should be changed back." Of course it is going to feel "wrong", its different. But give it a chance. Wait for more testing, approach it as a new feature and don't complain just because something is different.
I enjoyed the leap as it was, but if you go about every aspect of the game with that same mindset then you're asking for a reskinned NS1. NS1 was awesome, but lets play around with their NS2 for a while before we complain too much. If its negatively affecting gameplay, then we will post our arguments of why the addition of mid-air leap would make the game better. I know they want our ideas and suggestions but at this point it is all just fear of change and no incite as to what it will actually be like in gameplay.
They probably made it so (leap and bellyslide), because marines now have sprint.
As if turning back to the enemy ever brought results it is a terrible movement skill as well.
How about getting somewhere quicker to help your teammates or trying to chase someone down.