Damn, sorry there are so many problems. We've been testing mostly on a LAN with 4-6 players at a time (although we do some larger scale testing too) and we haven't seen issues like this.
We're trying to figure out what's causing these problems right now!
<!--quoteo(post=1803266:date=Oct 27 2010, 06:52 PM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flayra @ Oct 27 2010, 06:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1803266"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Damn, sorry there are so many problems. We've been testing mostly on a LAN with 4-6 players at a time (although we do some larger scale testing too) and we haven't seen issues like this.
We're trying to figure out what's causing these problems right now!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
that's all well and good, but for our sake, no more roller coaster hype please!
First, I'd like to applaud Baron for skillfully reproducing the drama queen like reaction normally saved only for the girls on "my super sweet 16" on MTV.
<!--quoteo(post=1803266:date=Oct 27 2010, 04:52 PM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flayra @ Oct 27 2010, 04:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1803266"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Damn, sorry there are so many problems. We've been testing mostly on a LAN with 4-6 players at a time (although we do some larger scale testing too) and we haven't seen issues like this.
We're trying to figure out what's causing these problems right now!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's a little disappointing, but understandable nonetheless. I just hope the next patch isn't three months off!
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited October 2010
Meh, I did manage to find some bugs. Other the the obvious lag issues, once more... On a local server the game runs pretty smooth, and now I can see the world with "medium" graphics instead of "ridiculously awe full". That is one step up in terms of shininess. And I can look in the general direction of more then 3 hydra's without a big FPS hit.
But the network performance seems to be much worse now... I could actually join a game and warp around in 151. Now I canae even move, looks like I loaded up a screenshot for about 1 minute during the rare occasion I am able to connect. After which it seems to give me a performance of about 1 frame/8 seconds.
I read on "get satisfaction" to leave it cooking on a server for a while, <a href="http://getsatisfaction.com/unknownworlds/topics/cant_move_game_hangs" target="_blank">then this problem was gone.</a>.. Gonnah try that next
<!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro--><b>Also going to try the lowest graphics setting once more! Maybe some of you lot need to do the same as well...</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--quoteo(post=1803266:date=Oct 28 2010, 01:52 AM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flayra @ Oct 28 2010, 01:52 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1803266"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Damn, sorry there are so many problems. We've been testing mostly on a LAN with 4-6 players at a time (although we do some larger scale testing too) and we haven't seen issues like this.
We're trying to figure out what's causing these problems right now!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> No worries, I believe you work as hard as you can :)
And like I said, I do believe the hit recognition and moving around has improved since last patch (although the animation thing is weird, it doesn't seem to be 100% fps issue, but even the rifle melee animation has like 3 different frames (normal position, in the middle of the screen, left side of the screen and then back). Although I guess it could be an FPS thing, didn't check with FPS displayed on screen.).
<!--quoteo(post=1803269:date=Oct 27 2010, 06:55 PM:name=WatchMaker)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (WatchMaker @ Oct 27 2010, 06:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1803269"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->First, I'd like to applaud Baron for skillfully reproducing the drama queen like reaction normally saved only for the girls on "my super sweet 16" on MTV.
It's a little disappointing, but understandable nonetheless. I just hope the next patch isn't three months off!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--coloro:#FFA500--><span style="color:#FFA500"><!--/coloro-->I need to be much, much more polite.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--quoteo(post=1803268:date=Oct 27 2010, 01:54 PM:name=DJPenguin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DJPenguin @ Oct 27 2010, 01:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1803268"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->that's all well and good, but for our sake, no more roller coaster hype please!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, it's probably incredibly exciting over at your end to be able to share something with your community, but next time you might want to put a lid on it for a bit! Thanks for all the hard work UWE, fortunately now you should have plenty of something to work with to improve, and hopefully roll out patches more frequently ^^;
<!--quoteo(post=1803266:date=Oct 28 2010, 08:52 AM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flayra @ Oct 28 2010, 08:52 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1803266"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Damn, sorry there are so many problems. We've been testing mostly on a LAN with 4-6 players at a time (although we do some larger scale testing too) and we haven't seen issues like this.
We're trying to figure out what's causing these problems right now!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->What framerate do you guys get on your test machines?
To everyone saying the netcode performance is worse, you just haven't managed to get on a server that works yet. Try for a server with a small number of players. When you actually get into a game that plays, everything works much better. It's still not much of a "game" because of the animation glitches and FPS weirdness, but you can hit things quite easily and the netcode seems much-improved.
<!--quoteo(post=1803266:date=Oct 28 2010, 12:52 AM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flayra @ Oct 28 2010, 12:52 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1803266"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Damn, sorry there are so many problems. We've been testing mostly on a LAN with 4-6 players at a time (although we do some larger scale testing too) and we haven't seen issues like this.
We're trying to figure out what's causing these problems right now!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> for some reason players eat CPU capacity, my fps was like multiplied with 0.9^N, where N is how many players joined my public game. fps started at 45 and was at 5 with 18 players. intel c2d e6850 3GHz @ 3.6
this is probably what happens to ded servers too (those that have weak CPU:s)
also game is VERY CPU intense keeping both my cores at 85-95% constantly, while GPU sits back at 1/3 load
<!--quoteo(post=1803276:date=Oct 27 2010, 02:04 PM:name=PsiWarp)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PsiWarp @ Oct 27 2010, 02:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1803276"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Anyone who could connect and move around a bit, tried Instancing yet?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I tried instancing but it was glitchy as hell. Props were blinking in and out and you could see through in places to the skybox, as well as textures going back to the default grid-one. Pretty much the reason why it's turned off by default at this point I guess.
Guys just chill! Trust the process. This was a huge patch. There's bound to be some kinks while the they sort out what new problems this new patch will encounter in all your different PC configurations. Now we will likely see some more frequent micro-patches to get the mayor patch settled in.
I don't see why this is so hard to see for most of you...
Imagine that the large patch is like a big piece of fabric made to fit in the whole that was the big problem identified SO FAR. Now the micro-patches (I'm assuming that's the next step) are going to be like the thread sowing the patch into the Quilt that is the NS2 Alpha so that it fit just right.
I wouldn't say the fps / lag has deteriorated, at least in my case it has become moderately better in <10 player games. But when the server fills up over 10 players it gets as bad as it was before.
But yea, from Flayras post I guess UWE was just as shocked as us. Which is bad since it took them so long to figure this patch out, now they need to locate and fix another problem and I would guess it will take at least as long as this one did.
Mr. EpicJoin Date: 2003-08-01Member: 18660Members, Constellation
edited October 2010
For those doubting the improvements, Max had a test server up earlier that (compared to every other server) worked great. Like 8v8 or more players and none of the dramatic issues seen elsewhere. Framerates were still low, yes, but the networking side of things did seem vastly improved. I'm sure its some "doh how did we miss that" sort of thing going on because it is capable of working better.
edit- This isn't to say that there are still lots of networking issues, (which may be related to other things such as the cpu usage) but under certain conditions probably 6v6 or under it clearly can work.
douchebagatronCustom member titleJoin Date: 2003-12-20Member: 24581Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
I played one game for about 20 minutes and from what I understand, the lag that everyone is experiencing is not caused by networking issues per se. everyone had low pings and could move around fine themselves, but everyone else in the server was stuttering hardcore. for example, i could move around with no problems, but every other person would jump from place to place, and i think this was what was happening in generall. I don't have a lot of experience with servers, but i would describe it as being on a server that did 1 tick per second. I could move around and perform just fine, but the server would only register what was going on once a second.
devicenullJoin Date: 2003-04-30Member: 15967Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited October 2010
I've got a server up at xxxx with some fairly beefy hardware behind it. I'd love for people to give it a try so I can see what the cpu usage does. If it can't stand up cpu/network wise, nothing will ;)
Note: I removed the server IP.. the box it was no couldn't handle the players. I'm moving to a new box.. but the CPU usage on this thing is absurd. I'll repost once it's installed again.
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited October 2010
Alright, I could join a server and actually do stuff. Unlike 151 (not even on a 1 or 2 player server). But once there were more players then 8 the performance all went to hell.
Network issues are indeed somewhat better, but the fact that other players eat away at my cpu drops the clientside framerate into a pit of doom.
Core2Duo E6420 @ 2.2Ghz seems to be killing the alpha for me. This alpha needs a hefty cpu currently
is it possible for you to test over steam or in some sort of "real world"environment?
it seems like a lot of the issues may have to do with network latency; since these issues aren't appearing over LAN but do appear over internet, it seems reasonable to conclude that at least partially the reason is due to latency.
I recommend people using the <i>r_stats 1</i> command to see your frame-rate and other stuff like memory-usage. I'm not sure myself as I didn't check what my starting values were, but I think the audio-memory increased steadily, which does seem to make sense considering the spam the console is under from "missing skulk/pain.wav" and so on. Don't quote me on it but keep an eye out on this imo.
I have just had a little go, and improvements have clearly been made. The hit reg is far better, as is generally everything else.
It seems to me (and i'm no programmer here) that the game is consuming my pc. I mean performance is just raping my computer. Is it perhaps that which is relating to these problems?
My spec is fairly modest, but I am not expecting to run everything really well. L4D2 runs great in low settings, where as this should be running better than it is.
VAIO laptop FW21E
4000 series mobility radeon core 2 duo 4 gigs of ram windows7 64bit
Very noticeable bugs/things off (that you no doubt know about):
- Kept spawning as skulk in the floor (stair case)... maybe it is seeing the space below it large enough to spawn or something so you get stuck there. - Drifters just casually drift through walls to get to waypoints, as do build bots. - I had to run it in 640x480 (consider that with performance issues people will be dropping resolutions... all the vector work is HUGE. Cursors etc.) - The hive sight is like when you drive you car at night and someone in another car has their high beams on driving right at you, for buildings anyway.
But all stuff you probably know, and great improvement on last. Except for as has been said, performance.
EDIT: Just been playing on a server with around 16 people joined (a lot anyway) and got raped in the comm room. About 4/5 aliens attacked 4 marines. FPS/Networking just floored it.
<!--quoteo(post=1803284:date=Oct 27 2010, 07:12 PM:name=Eldon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Eldon @ Oct 27 2010, 07:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1803284"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I can't even get the game to launch now :(<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
To reiterate, I see these as a cycle of "core engine issues" patches followed by "compatibility" patches and so on...
Also:
Please relax and report bugs in a helpful and appropriate manner. I know it's frustrating to us that UWE is taking "longer than promised" to develop NS2, but I too know that it's more frustrating to them. I also sense no foul play on their part, on the contrary they are working their butts of to get their job done asap.
On a separate but related note. Giving us ALL a chance to playtest the alpha was a cool move on their part. Let's not punish that move by losing track of what the alpha process is right now. Getting the game to run well on everyone's computer. That's the goal of everyone who chooses to participate in the alpha at this moment.
I know I sound like an UWE defender but I'm merely just trying to practice a considerate attitude and logical thinking. Yes it's taking really long, but I've yet to feel betrayed or tricked, and until that happens I'm going to keep a chill or helpful attitude, because well ALL want the same thing here.
schkorpioI can mspaintJoin Date: 2003-05-23Member: 16635Members
<!--quoteo(post=1803267:date=Oct 28 2010, 08:53 AM:name=Baron_Bad_Egg)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Baron_Bad_Egg @ Oct 28 2010, 08:53 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1803267"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->...wouldn't this have been thought of after the first patch was released and everyone had all of these same issues?
and deleting my posts because im an upset customer is good PR too. keep upsetting the few that support you.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
Alpha testers in the servers aren't that helpful either. The ones that get good FPS just play the game and ignore any attempts to communicate on my part <img src="http://members.home.nl/m.borgman/ns-forum/smileys/nonono.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" />
I did get a funny response from one guy, "We're testing the deathtriggers"
While I appreciate that they worked hard to give us 152 and that they are going to iron out any kinks asap, if we see the same patch cycle as last time (2months+!) then its not like its going to matter... sigh
First i guess its a good news but now i can not even create a local server and test the game. Ok maybe next release or beta, yeah better wait for the beta for testing. Better a good playable game, then a "insert angry word here" very frustrating (pre-)alpha, learning never stops. Yes, a alpha game isn't the same like a alpha Modification, i know that but i realy guess UWE release a alpha gameplay and not a alpha game at all... anyway good luck guys, i want see future creative games of your company :-)
One thing I have to comment on is that the input buffering is very much improves meaning that it doesn't seem to be buffered at all anymore! I can't spin around my mouse so fast that the game freaks out.
However I think there seems to be a one frame delay of some sort for the input. (really noticeable when you are only getting a few fps but it might not be a problem if the fps is better)
Much better input response overall though.
Edit: Now I don't know if this means anything for the net code, I only played locally. But I feel that the client game simply responding to user input correctly was a major issue for the first two alpha builds. I really couldn't tell you how the netcode was in the first builds since I couldn't even properly aim.
Comments
We're trying to figure out what's causing these problems right now!
and deleting my posts because im an upset customer is good PR too. keep upsetting the few that support you.
We're trying to figure out what's causing these problems right now!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
that's all well and good, but for our sake, no more roller coaster hype please!
<!--quoteo(post=1803266:date=Oct 27 2010, 04:52 PM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flayra @ Oct 27 2010, 04:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1803266"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Damn, sorry there are so many problems. We've been testing mostly on a LAN with 4-6 players at a time (although we do some larger scale testing too) and we haven't seen issues like this.
We're trying to figure out what's causing these problems right now!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's a little disappointing, but understandable nonetheless. I just hope the next patch isn't three months off!
But the network performance seems to be much worse now... I could actually join a game and warp around in 151. Now I canae even move, looks like I loaded up a screenshot for about 1 minute during the rare occasion I am able to connect. After which it seems to give me a performance of about 1 frame/8 seconds.
I read on "get satisfaction" to leave it cooking on a server for a while, <a href="http://getsatisfaction.com/unknownworlds/topics/cant_move_game_hangs" target="_blank">then this problem was gone.</a>.. Gonnah try that next
<!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro--><b>Also going to try the lowest graphics setting once more! Maybe some of you lot need to do the same as well...</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
We're trying to figure out what's causing these problems right now!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No worries, I believe you work as hard as you can :)
And like I said, I do believe the hit recognition and moving around has improved since last patch (although the animation thing is weird, it doesn't seem to be 100% fps issue, but even the rifle melee animation has like 3 different frames (normal position, in the middle of the screen, left side of the screen and then back). Although I guess it could be an FPS thing, didn't check with FPS displayed on screen.).
It's a little disappointing, but understandable nonetheless. I just hope the next patch isn't three months off!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--coloro:#FFA500--><span style="color:#FFA500"><!--/coloro-->I need to be much, much more polite.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Yeah, it's probably incredibly exciting over at your end to be able to share something with your community, but next time you might want to put a lid on it for a bit!
Thanks for all the hard work UWE, fortunately now you should have plenty of something to work with to improve, and hopefully roll out patches more frequently ^^;
Netcode is much better can actually bite and shoot things and move around without to much lag...
Framerate is still bad i get 20fps with a 5850!
We need to see a 4x increase in framerate...
We're trying to figure out what's causing these problems right now!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->What framerate do you guys get on your test machines?
We're trying to figure out what's causing these problems right now!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
for some reason players eat CPU capacity, my fps was like multiplied with 0.9^N, where N is how many players joined my public game.
fps started at 45 and was at 5 with 18 players.
intel c2d e6850 3GHz @ 3.6
this is probably what happens to ded servers too (those that have weak CPU:s)
also game is VERY CPU intense keeping both my cores at 85-95% constantly, while GPU sits back at 1/3 load
I tried instancing but it was glitchy as hell. Props were blinking in and out and you could see through in places to the skybox, as well as textures going back to the default grid-one.
Pretty much the reason why it's turned off by default at this point I guess.
I don't see why this is so hard to see for most of you...
Imagine that the large patch is like a big piece of fabric made to fit in the whole that was the big problem identified SO FAR. Now the micro-patches (I'm assuming that's the next step) are going to be like the thread sowing the patch into the Quilt that is the NS2 Alpha so that it fit just right.
But yea, from Flayras post I guess UWE was just as shocked as us. Which is bad since it took them so long to figure this patch out, now they need to locate and fix another problem and I would guess it will take at least as long as this one did.
edit- This isn't to say that there are still lots of networking issues, (which may be related to other things such as the cpu usage) but under certain conditions probably 6v6 or under it clearly can work.
Fixed: That was steams fault, not the patch!
Note: I removed the server IP.. the box it was no couldn't handle the players. I'm moving to a new box.. but the CPU usage on this thing is absurd. I'll repost once it's installed again.
Network issues are indeed somewhat better, but the fact that other players eat away at my cpu drops the clientside framerate into a pit of doom.
Core2Duo E6420 @ 2.2Ghz seems to be killing the alpha for me. This alpha needs a hefty cpu currently
it seems like a lot of the issues may have to do with network latency; since these issues aren't appearing over LAN but do appear over internet, it seems reasonable to conclude that at least partially the reason is due to latency.
I'm not sure myself as I didn't check what my starting values were, but I think the audio-memory increased steadily, which does seem to make sense considering the spam the console is under from "missing skulk/pain.wav" and so on. Don't quote me on it but keep an eye out on this imo.
It seems to me (and i'm no programmer here) that the game is consuming my pc. I mean performance is just raping my computer. Is it perhaps that which is relating to these problems?
My spec is fairly modest, but I am not expecting to run everything really well. L4D2 runs great in low settings, where as this should be running better than it is.
VAIO laptop FW21E
4000 series mobility radeon
core 2 duo
4 gigs of ram
windows7 64bit
Very noticeable bugs/things off (that you no doubt know about):
- Kept spawning as skulk in the floor (stair case)... maybe it is seeing the space below it large enough to spawn or something so you get stuck there.
- Drifters just casually drift through walls to get to waypoints, as do build bots.
- I had to run it in 640x480 (consider that with performance issues people will be dropping resolutions... all the vector work is HUGE. Cursors etc.)
- The hive sight is like when you drive you car at night and someone in another car has their high beams on driving right at you, for buildings anyway.
But all stuff you probably know, and great improvement on last. Except for as has been said, performance.
EDIT: Just been playing on a server with around 16 people joined (a lot anyway) and got raped in the comm room. About 4/5 aliens attacked 4 marines. FPS/Networking just floored it.
To reiterate, I see these as a cycle of "core engine issues" patches followed by "compatibility" patches and so on...
Also:
Please relax and report bugs in a helpful and appropriate manner. I know it's frustrating to us that UWE is taking "longer than promised" to develop NS2, but I too know that it's more frustrating to them. I also sense no foul play on their part, on the contrary they are working their butts of to get their job done asap.
On a separate but related note. Giving us ALL a chance to playtest the alpha was a cool move on their part. Let's not punish that move by losing track of what the alpha process is right now. Getting the game to run well on everyone's computer. That's the goal of everyone who chooses to participate in the alpha at this moment.
I know I sound like an UWE defender but I'm merely just trying to practice a considerate attitude and logical thinking. Yes it's taking really long, but I've yet to feel betrayed or tricked, and until that happens I'm going to keep a chill or helpful attitude, because well ALL want the same thing here.
and deleting my posts because im an upset customer is good PR too. keep upsetting the few that support you.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
being a troll isn't supporting anyone
I did get a funny response from one guy, "We're testing the deathtriggers"
Indeed <img src="http://members.home.nl/m.borgman/ns-forum/smileys/biggrin.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Ok maybe next release or beta, yeah better wait for the beta for testing.
Better a good playable game, then a "insert angry word here" very frustrating (pre-)alpha, learning never stops.
Yes, a alpha game isn't the same like a alpha Modification, i know that but i realy guess UWE release a alpha gameplay and not a alpha game at all...
anyway good luck guys, i want see future creative games of your company :-)
However I think there seems to be a one frame delay of some sort for the input.
(really noticeable when you are only getting a few fps but it might not be a problem if the fps is better)
Much better input response overall though.
Edit:
Now I don't know if this means anything for the net code, I only played locally. But I feel that the client game simply responding to user input correctly was a major issue for the first two alpha builds. I really couldn't tell you how the netcode was in the first builds since I couldn't even properly aim.