The GUI and some other stuff
Koruyo
AUT Join Date: 2009-06-06 Member: 67724Members, Reinforced - Shadow
AUT Join Date: 2009-06-06 Member: 67724Members, Reinforced - Shadow
I know a lot of this stuff is work in progress, but since you will redo most of this anyway, because of this flash problems - i needed to make a list, and maybe we get some fresh ideas. (photoshop examples etc.)
Some not gui stuff made it in too, i couldnt resist.
<!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->=><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> An "what weapons do i have?" "Which Hotkey"and "which Weapon is currently active Highlighting" would be nice. its kinda there(at least for aliens) but its not clear or userfriendly, hope that changes completely.
<!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->=><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> The minimap is an ocean of green rectangles, would be nice to have little icons. + color highlights as border (Hive, ResNode, Livefrom, Structure as small icons etc)
<!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->=><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> Control Groups/ Squad area is missing, maybe an bar with the num keys shown (gets icon of structure/squad you bind to the key etc.)
Every squad should get some kind of highlight to differ on the minimap. + maybe allow F Keys too. (at least F1 to F4, Hive CC Observatory etc. or Squads would fit there well as a clear separation and a better access to such important stuff)
<!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->=><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> Circle healthbars of Structures and Players. Option to show them on
> everything all the time (teamstructures + teamplayers)
> only on own structures and with "alt key" as modifier show the team players
> the other way around. (players + alt -> structures)
> hide it all, like it is atm, and only show this stuff while holding "alt"
> Only show circles if the player or structure has <100% health. So you know everything is fine until you see the circle.
The question is how you do it with the enemy team?... i guess only show stuff if in range of an observatory or if area is scanned.
<!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->=><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> I dont know who is who as a commander. You cant always spam cats medpacks and ammo for everybody, so you have to favor the "best" aimer/the guy with the biggest weapon/ or whatever you think could turn the table... So u need to know the health of your guys(as suggested above), the weapon and maybe the nickname(or a rank up symbol that gives you a hint that this guy is a killing machine whatever,...) - and that as easy and fast visible as possible.
<!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->=><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> Cursors are too big and ugly for my taste, but i can live with that if u think that looks good.
<!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->=><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> Replicate Cost symbol is wrong, it costs structure energy and not this green stuff. (tooltips? i forgot the name of it, blue is plasma right?)
<!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->=><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> Different Commander UIs are a problem because of the hotkeys. Sure its ok to start with this first letter = key stuff, but it would be nice to have other options like
| q | w | e | r |
| a | s | d | f |
| y | x | c | v |
for the button area on both sides.
<!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->=><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> Alien respawn time seems too fast compared to marines. (5 vs 10s) because of the early leap - in testgames we could rush and win almost everytime if we wanted as aliens.
<!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->=><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> assaultrifles altfire is rarly used, why should i hit them with my gun if i can slice them up with an axe? Thats why most ppl switch to axe if they want to melee. Most of the time it is like this -> fire assaultrifle until empty -> pistol until emtpy -> axe. You <b>dont melee</b>, "melee enemys" <b>if you dont have to</b> - they get in melee range too, and that hurts you more then them if you are unlucky.
<!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->=><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> Unlimited sprint needs to be limited. You can outrun skulks(+leap) easily - could be self-solving if performance gets even better.
<!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->=><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> turret cone should be visible and the direction adjustable before placing them, otherwise you have to increase the turn speed. the cone should get 180° for my taste, i almost never get hit by turrets as alien... (a little left right strafing[i can do it for minutes in front of 3 turrets without getting hit], leaping over or whatever)
<!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->=><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> the recycle button and back button share the same position in the button grid, sometimes u recycle by accident. Separate the button out of this grid. (+ del as hotkey)
<!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->=><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> i dont understand the power node stuff, and alien infestation. how will this work?
... ok im finished for today. lets talk.
PS:
Found a bug:
As Gorge with Weapon 1 (Spit/Heal) after you press "X" -> "Follow me" it places a Hydra with a white rangeindicator cicle around it - it doesnt grow or has any function. Replaces to new position in front of you whenever u say "Follow me" again. Goes away after going Commander or dieing. Problem is that after hitting "X" and "2", it switches a sec. to weapon 2 and then back, instead of ignoring the weapon switching at all.
Some not gui stuff made it in too, i couldnt resist.
<!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->=><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> An "what weapons do i have?" "Which Hotkey"and "which Weapon is currently active Highlighting" would be nice. its kinda there(at least for aliens) but its not clear or userfriendly, hope that changes completely.
<!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->=><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> The minimap is an ocean of green rectangles, would be nice to have little icons. + color highlights as border (Hive, ResNode, Livefrom, Structure as small icons etc)
<!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->=><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> Control Groups/ Squad area is missing, maybe an bar with the num keys shown (gets icon of structure/squad you bind to the key etc.)
Every squad should get some kind of highlight to differ on the minimap. + maybe allow F Keys too. (at least F1 to F4, Hive CC Observatory etc. or Squads would fit there well as a clear separation and a better access to such important stuff)
<!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->=><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> Circle healthbars of Structures and Players. Option to show them on
> everything all the time (teamstructures + teamplayers)
> only on own structures and with "alt key" as modifier show the team players
> the other way around. (players + alt -> structures)
> hide it all, like it is atm, and only show this stuff while holding "alt"
> Only show circles if the player or structure has <100% health. So you know everything is fine until you see the circle.
The question is how you do it with the enemy team?... i guess only show stuff if in range of an observatory or if area is scanned.
<!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->=><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> I dont know who is who as a commander. You cant always spam cats medpacks and ammo for everybody, so you have to favor the "best" aimer/the guy with the biggest weapon/ or whatever you think could turn the table... So u need to know the health of your guys(as suggested above), the weapon and maybe the nickname(or a rank up symbol that gives you a hint that this guy is a killing machine whatever,...) - and that as easy and fast visible as possible.
<!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->=><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> Cursors are too big and ugly for my taste, but i can live with that if u think that looks good.
<!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->=><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> Replicate Cost symbol is wrong, it costs structure energy and not this green stuff. (tooltips? i forgot the name of it, blue is plasma right?)
<!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->=><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> Different Commander UIs are a problem because of the hotkeys. Sure its ok to start with this first letter = key stuff, but it would be nice to have other options like
| q | w | e | r |
| a | s | d | f |
| y | x | c | v |
for the button area on both sides.
<!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->=><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> Alien respawn time seems too fast compared to marines. (5 vs 10s) because of the early leap - in testgames we could rush and win almost everytime if we wanted as aliens.
<!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->=><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> assaultrifles altfire is rarly used, why should i hit them with my gun if i can slice them up with an axe? Thats why most ppl switch to axe if they want to melee. Most of the time it is like this -> fire assaultrifle until empty -> pistol until emtpy -> axe. You <b>dont melee</b>, "melee enemys" <b>if you dont have to</b> - they get in melee range too, and that hurts you more then them if you are unlucky.
<!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->=><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> Unlimited sprint needs to be limited. You can outrun skulks(+leap) easily - could be self-solving if performance gets even better.
<!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->=><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> turret cone should be visible and the direction adjustable before placing them, otherwise you have to increase the turn speed. the cone should get 180° for my taste, i almost never get hit by turrets as alien... (a little left right strafing[i can do it for minutes in front of 3 turrets without getting hit], leaping over or whatever)
<!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->=><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> the recycle button and back button share the same position in the button grid, sometimes u recycle by accident. Separate the button out of this grid. (+ del as hotkey)
<!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->=><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> i dont understand the power node stuff, and alien infestation. how will this work?
... ok im finished for today. lets talk.
PS:
Found a bug:
As Gorge with Weapon 1 (Spit/Heal) after you press "X" -> "Follow me" it places a Hydra with a white rangeindicator cicle around it - it doesnt grow or has any function. Replaces to new position in front of you whenever u say "Follow me" again. Goes away after going Commander or dieing. Problem is that after hitting "X" and "2", it switches a sec. to weapon 2 and then back, instead of ignoring the weapon switching at all.
Comments
1. Organise players (Manage them, supply them, COMMUNICATE with them.)
2. Strategise
This is how the command interface works currently (I know this is Alpha so don't scream it):
1. Rugby/American Football tackle a UI that is no different from RTS UI from over 10 years ago.
2. Spend all my time working out how to build stuff in a menu system that is completely illogical.
3. Hear players screaming 'comm? Health!' whilst I am getting lost in menus.
4. Drop ammo/supplies only to realise a different player has just picked it up.
For the first two to be even in with a chance.
1. Design the interface around an RTS/FPS based game, not apply an existing (poor) system into a game that uses a tier method of upgrading.
2. Make it as easy as possible, so that the first two mentioned (player management/strategy) are doable.
My ideal scenario as comm:
1. Jump in.
2. Know what to build because I have one build key that opens up a full screen display of what I can build, and what I can build if I build/upgrade stuff.
(Not necessarily the right answer, but more along the lines of a better answer.)
3. Spend my time thinking what I am going to build/where/routes of strategy.
4. Spend most of my time talking to players over the mic, when I do hear them over mic I can jump to them, click on them and then just give them supplies.
If anyone knows how intense CS is (in terms of professional play and organisation) imagine NS2 at that level and add in everything else you have to do. You will have little time for players. Then you expect people to drop supplies on people which is also completely illogical. Now you are adding in squads, and I want to have the commander telling me what to do a lot of the time. More and more for a comm to deal with, so you have to make the other areas more understandable/easier.
It is said that good design comes from the question, not the answer.
<u>
What should the role of the commander be?</u>
If it is to get lost in menus and spend time micro managing, that is what the current state is.
A harsh reply, but I think it is a good point. Everything else is superb as far as I am concerned, apart from game feel. But I guess that will come with time.
Why don't we just have a huge build button that then comes up with a semi-transparent menu of all structures easily identifiable with nice labels? It can still by hot keyed for the 'elite' and makes the experience so much nicer for the newb and the casual.
NS1 had this issue you had to know the system in advance and know exactly what you've done and still need to do, the interface would not give you any clues.
Check out NS2HD[35] for a power node demo ;)
It's awesome to see so many creative ideas for the UI after only 4 posts! A friendly and intuitive RTS menu is a must, and perhaps the flash-abandon will provide the opportunity to create it. Does anyone have any experience creating GUIs? What does it involve?
I have posted my concerns with the UI before and suggestions, and even e-mailed Charlie. I think it would be a mistake to not completely rethink the experience as 'what could we do' rather that 'this has been done before, lets just do that'.
There are so many possibilities. Take text to speak and VOIP. How has that changed EVER since they were implemented into games? Such an opportunity to make this game stand out is staring me right in the face there.
RTS/FPS it is so different. You can't just stick FPS UI in with RTS UI and think it will work!
Wait... what?? Powerpoint?? Grandama, is that you??
Not everyone has the time or skills to start messing around with flash, nore the money. Not that that stops people.
As for getting it in game, that is a different matter and requires programming language that a minority understand. Or a majority on here that understand how to programme but not how to design.
Being able to click on this square as commander could move the camera to the talker's position.
I think it can be a good way to go where the action is.
Being able to click on this square as commander could move the camera to the talker's position.
I think it can be a good way to go where the action is.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is exactly that kind of stuff that should be implemented, or derivative of. Especially when it comes to assessing player health (whether you need to help them) and ammo supplies, and then just clicking on either icon to supply.
<img src="http://pc.mmgn.com/lib/Images/Articles/normal/Best-Half-Life-2-Mods-For-Free--2.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
It allows you to know a lot of info about your teammates and enemies like HP/armor/implants.
I think that something like this it's necessary for the comm to know the status of your marines looking the action not the GUI.
Maybe something like a green circle (HP) surrounded by a blue circle (armor) surrounding the marine will be a good solution.
Haha no no... No GUIs for me. Just green screening at the moment :D
I was trying to spur discussion about how GUIs are made, so we can have a meaningful discussion about how hard it would be for UWE to implement these things.
Every time a player uses the comms or types a message, their name jumps to the top. Through this bar you can assess the player, supply them with ammo or health and locate them by clicking on their name. If players were in imminent trouble you could just tap the push to talk key to get attention, because in the middle of a big fight you don't have time to chat.
This is the sort of care and attention the comm should be paying, and responding to by directing other players.
It would take away the stress of building much needed structures, and then forsaking this by having to move the screen position to another place on the map to deal with players who will probably be dead by the time you get there.
A few changes to the GUI would make it a lot more understandable to new players, give the comm and move involved role in strategy and be build around an rts/fps based gameplay.
I was trying to spur discussion about how GUIs are made, so we can have a meaningful discussion about how hard it would be for UWE to implement these things.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ah.
Well, I am sure there is an insurmountable amount of work involved in anything. But I think it is worth investing time in something that will make or break the game, especially as the role of the comm is much bigger in NS2 than NS1. For me it is something that 'totally' sells this game, as it is a genre within itself.
The answer to the problem is not 'we will make the game fun even if the comm is bad'. It is skirting the problem, putting a cast on an open wound. It should be 'how can we make the comm more accessible and understandable to players?'
It should be 'simple' in understanding but have have the ability to be complex in strategy, and promote both this and communication/player management.
There have been plenty of good suggestions on here, I just hope UWE take it on board.
I tried to make a feature list for the commander ui, go from rough points into details finishing it off by little concepts to every point.
I stopped it, because i don't know if such a list is welcome/any use to uwe... it costs a lot of time - ya know.
But if uwe is interessted, we could make a list together...
Dunno the name or url anymore, it was possible to make an opendocument everybody could contribute in, with version history - to prevent idiots destroying it... (wiki-like)