Back to buttons.. Throwing in some screen of toying around with the interface. <img src="http://www.sorcerer.de/images/ns2/alphaimages/ns2-command-menu.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />
It's stil an unfinished throught, but it breaks down like this..
You move the hotgroups down to the bar, same with the ressources, the info area in the middle gets a nice little icon on the structure when something is unpowered, and on the right above the bar you get structure upgrades buttons. So once you build a structure with upgrades, it will also appear there and you can quickly select the available upgrades. With the standard button indicating that something is upgrading. The regular button menu could be stripped down to essential stuff then.
Given the relatively limited number of units in the field, it could be quite good to try and keep (even if it's small by default) an icon for each team member on the screen rather than having it disappear when you go into other menus, or not being visible at all. The total war series has a fixed 20 unit maximum and it works quite well there - showing which units are taking damage etc; you could use something smaller as you don't have too many different unit classes to worry about - just show name, health, weapon type etc. It should also be quite intuitive to move the icons around into or out of squads, select individual marines (or groups thereof) etc. If it's not permanently shown then I think a minimised version (e.g. just a number of small squares going from green to red with health) would be useful.
I don't expect to ever be allowed to command though so my input probably doesn't count :)
<!--quoteo(post=1805411:date=Nov 12 2010, 10:02 PM:name=SentrySteve)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SentrySteve @ Nov 12 2010, 10:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1805411"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The addition of the flamethrower, something Flayra always wanted since NS 1 was released, has a distinct purpose in NS2. It removes dynamic infestation and is, presumably, good at destroying buildings. If UWE reworked a proven and established user interface because they were afraid of "SC2 did it better" criticisms then they'll waste a lot of time for nothing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> fair enough
My first gripe is OH GAWDS IT'S TAKING HALE MAH SCREEN
Seriously though. That's half my screen! I like looking at my screen!
This is why stuff in UI is moved to the top and sides. Because the center area is where the eyes like to look and the edges are "peripheral" to an extent. However, your condensed UI is encroaching on the center of my screen, and thus I am in pain. Move stuff to the sides and top.
Well that's something the designers have to address.. actually the screen is not 100% correct since I cut off the top part of the screen with the exit button. It's just a concept of the idea, how to drag some of the buttons from the menu out of the general menu, put them somewhere else, always accessible. The upgrades above the upgrade buttons are also not meant to stay there all the time, instead appear when clicked.
My main issue while thinking about the interface is always.. what do you do with the minimap. At the moment it just takes quite an amount of space. Shrinking it does not really solve it, since you wouldn't be able to distinguish between the spots on it anymore, unless you give some option to toggle displayed stuff on the map like units, structures, nodes whatever.
The mini map is too complicated. It should be a simple 2D graphic top down view. Maybe style it similar to the movement sensor in alien but without beeps.
PlasmaJoin Date: 2003-04-26Member: 15855Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
One quirk I had with the UI so far was that I accidently recycled an armory (twice) because I clicked on 'Go Back' and then clicked again too quickly and hit 'Recycle' (which is what Go Back changed into).
Perhaps a confirm button should appear; or move the Recycle button to another position on the screen?
They should change it to a bulldoze icon (destroy would communicate better) with +res text next to it. That or use an actual recycle icon (3 arrows) but tweak it make it fit.
Also, has anyone noticed that to give health to players, you have to go back to the CC... click on it, then select health/ammo.
I really think they need to split the menu up into actions and upgrades/structures. There there wouldn't be so much confusion.
I.e When clicking on build bot, the current menu displays structures, the one above it shows actions.
i hover my marines, press 1 for the cc and then the hotkey for the medpack or ammo.
The only problem i see is not enough hotgroup places for squads, 3 ccs(u cant hotgroup more than one structure, would be nice for the energy stuff etc), X observatorys, Factory, and Armory
Hotkeys should be secondary to what is visually available. They are great, should definitely be in use. But if you can't do everything simply with just the mouse and movement keys that is something else.
<!--quoteo(post=1805228:date=Nov 10 2010, 06:41 PM:name=SentrySteve)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SentrySteve @ Nov 10 2010, 06:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1805228"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If countless companies are able to make their RTS UIs accessible to new players while still having their UIs keep up with the demands required from high level players (I'm referencing the 'traditional' RTS interface) then I see no reason why UWE can't do the same.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You do realize that the RTS graphical interface that you have so lovingly stated works for everyone, is the one thing that advanced RTS players hardly ever use. There is no graphical interface that has superceeded hotkeys or has even come close to them in efficiency.
I'm not saying they can become just as efficient, but the standard RTS (Edit) GRAPHICAL USER interface is far from ideal.
<!--quoteo(post=1808016:date=Nov 21 2010, 08:31 AM:name=SamW)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SamW @ Nov 21 2010, 08:31 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1808016"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You do realize that the RTS graphical interface that you have so lovingly stated works for everyone, is the one thing that advanced RTS players hardly ever use. There is no graphical interface that has superceeded hotkeys or has even come close to them in efficiency.
I'm not saying they can become just as efficient, but the standard RTS interface is far from ideal.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You'll notice I left the "G" or "graphical" out and referenced a user interface. I'm not going to get into a contest about what a UI is technically defined as but I would consider the ability to use hotkeys as part of the user interface since that's how players interact with the game. Hence, the traditional UI make is accessible to both low and high end players. If you honestly think the "standard RTS interface is far from ideal" I'd be very curious to see a UI you like.
Hot keys are not worth debating in this thread, can we keep on topic.
The main reason I say this, is that assigning commands to keys is a very simple exercise. But the workings of the interface (especially to new players) can not be understood based upon F1 - F10, or otherwise. This all comes down to the experience of first learning the game, which is visual, audible, and interactive.
The player needs a story from A - B.
A. When they first spawn and see the command centre B. End game
This could be - say - through a command assistant (i think uwe are keen on this) or reworking the interface so that you understand the build tree better, or to improve communication/relationship between the commander and players.
Should the commander be spending 80% of the time building, or make it easier to understand so they spend 80% of the time at the front line working out strategy/supplying troops. Etc...
<!--quoteo(post=1808050:date=Nov 21 2010, 05:44 AM:name=SentrySteve)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SentrySteve @ Nov 21 2010, 05:44 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1808050"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You'll notice I left the "G" or "graphical" out and referenced a user interface. I'm not going to get into a contest about what a UI is technically defined as but I would consider the ability to use hotkeys as part of the user interface since that's how players interact with the game. Hence, the traditional UI make is accessible to both low and high end players. If you honestly think the "standard RTS interface is far from ideal" I'd be very curious to see a UI you like.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm just saying the only way, as of yet, to please both novice and expert users is to basically completely segragate the user input into 2 different systems. Since we are talking about designing the graphical interface, I was saying that the graphical/mouse input does not meet, in anyways, the needs for high caliber players. I'm am not saying that hot-keys need to be changed, but that the GUI is far from being perfect, and therefore should be considered a good target for innovation. Just because the expert hot keys work perfectly, doesn't mean we don't have to consider improving the graphical stuff for the novice. What you have said is that nothing about the user interface, graphical or keyboard, needs to be changed, I contest that the graphical UI half of the equation can be improved.
Comments
But I don't think balancing has anything to do with the types of weapon, it is simply how much damage they do per second.
Hell you could have a flame thrower that did 1hp damage per second, and a skulk that killed 10 men when it barked. This is not real life.
The issue comes when you have too much rubbish that doesn't really fit a role of any kind.
OCs for defence.. makes sense. Sieges filled the gap when gorges dropped OCs everywhere.
I think the flamethrower will do two things:
As has been suggested, good for DI.
Also, aliens won't be able to just rampage into rooms or hide in vents. Vent camping being a balancing issue with nothing to really combat it.
Now, if they added in an LMG that was basically a LMG but not. It would be a waste of time.
Does anyone remember how they used to advertise some FPS?
"30 KINDS OF WEAPON, ALL THE ###### SAME!"
Throwing in some screen of toying around with the interface.
<img src="http://www.sorcerer.de/images/ns2/alphaimages/ns2-command-menu.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />
It's stil an unfinished throught, but it breaks down like this..
You move the hotgroups down to the bar, same with the ressources, the info area in the middle gets a nice little icon on the structure when something is unpowered, and on the right above the bar you get structure upgrades buttons.
So once you build a structure with upgrades, it will also appear there and you can quickly select the available upgrades. With the standard button indicating that something is upgrading.
The regular button menu could be stripped down to essential stuff then.
I don't expect to ever be allowed to command though so my input probably doesn't count :)
fair enough
Seriously though. That's half my screen! I like looking at my screen!
This is why stuff in UI is moved to the top and sides. Because the center area is where the eyes like to look and the edges are "peripheral" to an extent. However, your condensed UI is encroaching on the center of my screen, and thus I am in pain. Move stuff to the sides and top.
It's just a concept of the idea, how to drag some of the buttons from the menu out of the general menu, put them somewhere else, always accessible. The upgrades above the upgrade buttons are also not meant to stay there all the time, instead appear when clicked.
My main issue while thinking about the interface is always.. what do you do with the minimap. At the moment it just takes quite an amount of space. Shrinking it does not really solve it, since you wouldn't be able to distinguish between the spots on it anymore, unless you give some option to toggle displayed stuff on the map like units, structures, nodes whatever.
Perhaps a confirm button should appear; or move the Recycle button to another position on the screen?
Also, has anyone noticed that to give health to players, you have to go back to the CC... click on it, then select health/ammo.
I really think they need to split the menu up into actions and upgrades/structures. There there wouldn't be so much confusion.
I.e When clicking on build bot, the current menu displays structures, the one above it shows actions.
The same could be done for other buildings.
The only problem i see is not enough hotgroup places for squads, 3 ccs(u cant hotgroup more than one structure, would be nice for the energy stuff etc), X observatorys, Factory, and Armory
You do realize that the RTS graphical interface that you have so lovingly stated works for everyone, is the one thing that advanced RTS players hardly ever use. There is no graphical interface that has superceeded hotkeys or has even come close to them in efficiency.
I'm not saying they can become just as efficient, but the standard RTS (Edit) GRAPHICAL USER interface is far from ideal.
I'm not saying they can become just as efficient, but the standard RTS interface is far from ideal.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You'll notice I left the "G" or "graphical" out and referenced a user interface. I'm not going to get into a contest about what a UI is technically defined as but I would consider the ability to use hotkeys as part of the user interface since that's how players interact with the game. Hence, the traditional UI make is accessible to both low and high end players. If you honestly think the "standard RTS interface is far from ideal" I'd be very curious to see a UI you like.
The main reason I say this, is that assigning commands to keys is a very simple exercise. But the workings of the interface (especially to new players) can not be understood based upon F1 - F10, or otherwise. This all comes down to the experience of first learning the game, which is visual, audible, and interactive.
The player needs a story from A - B.
A. When they first spawn and see the command centre
B. End game
This could be - say - through a command assistant (i think uwe are keen on this) or reworking the interface so that you understand the build tree better, or to improve communication/relationship between the commander and players.
Should the commander be spending 80% of the time building, or make it easier to understand so they spend 80% of the time at the front line working out strategy/supplying troops. Etc...
I'm just saying the only way, as of yet, to please both novice and expert users is to basically completely segragate the user input into 2 different systems. Since we are talking about designing the graphical interface, I was saying that the graphical/mouse input does not meet, in anyways, the needs for high caliber players. I'm am not saying that hot-keys need to be changed, but that the GUI is far from being perfect, and therefore should be considered a good target for innovation. Just because the expert hot keys work perfectly, doesn't mean we don't have to consider improving the graphical stuff for the novice. What you have said is that nothing about the user interface, graphical or keyboard, needs to be changed, I contest that the graphical UI half of the equation can be improved.
Now that we know this, let's talk about the GUI for EVERYONE ELSE.