don't neglect map design re: balancing
Hakujin
Join Date: 2003-05-09 Member: 16157Members, Constellation
Join Date: 2003-05-09 Member: 16157Members, Constellation
So the GL and flamer are getting a lot of hate from alien players, and rightfully so. However, as UWE tweaks the stats and effects of these weapons, I hope they consider the effects of MAP DESIGN on the relative strengths of these weapons. On feature lacking in these two test maps that are strongly balanced level geometry. If skulks had more places to lie in wait or to flank behind marines with GL/flamer, the power of these weapons would be greatly diminshed. Right now the test maps force the aliens into a mainly frontal assault, which is suicide.
So please UWE - direct level designers to allow skulks to be better counters to higher tech through movement. Some key methods:
<ul><li>high ceilings</li><li>hidey holes that have to be explicitly checked (i.e., aren't in most efficient movement path)</li><li>vents that let skulks hit chokepoints from behind</li><li>wall geometry that allows efficient skulk vertical AND horizontal movement but is broken up enough to provide cover</li><li>atmospheric entities like steam, fog, or haze</li></ul>
PS - 156 was a great milestone! Thank you!
So please UWE - direct level designers to allow skulks to be better counters to higher tech through movement. Some key methods:
<ul><li>high ceilings</li><li>hidey holes that have to be explicitly checked (i.e., aren't in most efficient movement path)</li><li>vents that let skulks hit chokepoints from behind</li><li>wall geometry that allows efficient skulk vertical AND horizontal movement but is broken up enough to provide cover</li><li>atmospheric entities like steam, fog, or haze</li></ul>
PS - 156 was a great milestone! Thank you!
Comments
Since more often than not, a new element is introduced or core abilities are fixed/tweaked - which means gameplay changes alot ofc.
Creating maps take up alot of time, and i know my eyes would start to bleed if i'd be stuck with the same (finished!) map for months, just editing and editing.
Sorry, i understand your point and it would be lovely if it worked out, but sadly its far from being practical.
Sorry, i understand your point and it would be lovely if it worked out, but sadly its far from being practical.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think you misunderstood me. My point was that current test maps are not properly designed for maximum skulk maneuverability. As a result, it may cause the "over-nerfing" of marine weapons since they are being tested only in head-on attack situations. Maps should be designed for skulks BEFORE weapons stats/effects are tweaked.
A) The game will be balanced around what levels are available.
B) Each level will see plenty of revision as the game continues to evolve in complexity.
C) A combination of both.
In my opinion, there really is no choice than C. Redesigning a level isn't always the most fun thing to do, and I know UWE has their plate full, but it seems inevitable as more content is continually added to the game. Sgt. Barlow may be cursing and shaking his fist at the heavens long before we see the end of Beta. (If he isn't doing it already.)
I will echo your point about the vents, though. They were your bread and butter in NS1 as a skulk, but I can't recall using a single one since NS2 went into Alpha. They seem to have taken a back seat to just leaping around from the start. Maybe this is just the way things are intended for NS2, with vents truly being purely secondary routes. We can't know until the dev team starts fleshing the game out more towards what they have envisioned, and they can't know what will work until they've had a chance to test, and test, and test, and test.
This is exactly why I encourage people to enjoy the Alpha and Beta phases. This dynamic state doesn't last long, and it's a very fun process to watch. Not only that, but you can learn a good deal from following the development of a game like NS2.
I really thing that the maps should be bigger in general. Right now It's narrow hallway after hallway, with narrow rooms with boxes. I'd really like to get larger rooms, hallways and maps in general, with more than one way to reach a hive/cc-exp (I know that there are more than one way, but.. hm, how should I put this.. Not as "good" as the way hive-access was in ns1. This might just be because of the extremely tiny maps. I mean, just thing of ns_hera(iirc), with the way to one hive was through a long hallway, with a "fence" at the cieling that the aliens could use to walk on. If you'd implement such a fence on one of the existing maps.. well, there isn't enough space.
ps. please don't remove leap-bug ^_________^
A) The game will be balanced around what levels are available.
B) Each level will see plenty of revision as the game continues to evolve in complexity.
C) A combination of both.
In my opinion, there really is no choice than C. Redesigning a level isn't always the most fun thing to do, and I know UWE has their plate full, but it seems inevitable as more content is continually added to the game. Sgt. Barlow may be cursing and shaking his fist at the heavens long before we see the end of Beta. (If he isn't doing it already.)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Too true. The map and the units' qualities both affect balance. Both of them will change together before good balance is reached. It's two variables affecting one, so solving for that one will be tough.
A good thing about this is different maps will reveal units' qualities' imbalances.
It might pay to take a look at the mapping guidelines and see if you think any of your points have been missed there, so they can be added if appropriate.
Rockdown and Junction were just combat maps we made aeons ago to quickly test combat while the main ns2 maps were being produced, so that's why they force you into a frontal confrontation. But we decided to include them with some alterations for people to play with and they certainly don't represent anything in terms for final ns2 map design. I even purposely made rockdown's marine start huge to test framerates and vision culling.
/typo
So are you implying that the level designers are responsible for coding the game engine?
/typo<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thanks for the reply! The post was just as much for testers as it was for UWE.