Changing the Kharaa upgrade method
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Remain Calm Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 5216Forum Moderators, Constellation
Remain Calm Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 5216Forum Moderators, Constellation
<div class="IPBDescription">To be distinct from the marine method, and more interesting</div>Basically:
Kharaa get their upgrade levels passively as more chambers of a type is built, instead of having to actively research them.
So instead of the commander researching armour level 1-3 on a Crag as the number of hives increase, much like how the marine commander researches it at the armoury (identical sides? boring!), the level of armour increases by just building more Crags.
Also, probably a good idea to change it from the +10% or so at each level, maximum of 3 levels, to some smaller value but with more levels. So, you get armour 1-9 (strength adjusted down to compensate) by having 1-9 Crags. Not sure if the levels should be limited by the number of hives.
A bit like how in NS1 you need 3 chambers to get the full use out of personal upgrades, but without copying that system entirely.
Kharaa get their upgrade levels passively as more chambers of a type is built, instead of having to actively research them.
So instead of the commander researching armour level 1-3 on a Crag as the number of hives increase, much like how the marine commander researches it at the armoury (identical sides? boring!), the level of armour increases by just building more Crags.
Also, probably a good idea to change it from the +10% or so at each level, maximum of 3 levels, to some smaller value but with more levels. So, you get armour 1-9 (strength adjusted down to compensate) by having 1-9 Crags. Not sure if the levels should be limited by the number of hives.
A bit like how in NS1 you need 3 chambers to get the full use out of personal upgrades, but without copying that system entirely.
Comments
It could lead to a lot of spam,
and we'd see Commanders fortifying only one major base.
It would also decrease commander-player relations as Commanders would cease to build crags or whips outside of the base,
Decreasing the teams progression/area denial in one sense,
but in the other securing upgrades.
It actually sounds like it would work well with the current requirements for upgrades being limited by hive upgrades which are in turn limited by the amount of hives up.
<!--quoteo(post=1810582:date=Nov 26 2010, 09:00 AM:name=BarerRudeROC)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarerRudeROC @ Nov 26 2010, 09:00 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1810582"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->and we'd see Commanders fortifying only one major base.
It would also decrease commander-player relations as Commanders would cease to build crags or whips outside of the base,
Decreasing the teams progression/area denial in one sense,
but in the other securing upgrades.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm slightly confused with this post.
Would a commander really not want to cap extra res nodes and get another one or two hives, and if so how can he expect to keep building inside his base if he only has one res node?
Also, I don't think you can take over a marine base with just upgrades alone, you usually require an extra class or two which is achieved by gettting those extra hives up, and holding them with crags and whips. If the commander does not realise this or can't understand it I'd probably jump spectate and watch the marines run all over them.
But the problem is that the aliens would lose upgrades as the map control was lost, whereas marines wouldn't, and if they don't lose the power as crags/whips die, it would be a bit weird?
I like the idea but I'm not sure how to solve that problem.
I like the idea but I'm not sure how to solve that problem.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You are creating a problem where there is none, no side looses upgrades when the building that enabled it was destroyed.
Isn't it a bit odd if the aliens get upgrades from building structures but then don't need structures to power them?
Does it work on max or how many you build? If you build 3 crags, demolish them, then build 3 more, have you built 6 crags?
What happens if you build six but only have one hive, do you get all the upgrades? What happens if you lose a hive? What happens if you lose the crags but then build a second hive, does it then enable the full upgrade because you met the all of the criteria at some point but not all at once?
Consistency is important.
In NS1 your upgrades as a marine were temporarily lost if the appropriate structure was lost, which I suspect is going to happen in NS2 as well, so it's not totally one-sided.
But they do tend to keep all their upgrade structures safe in their base, whereas aliens often make chambers on the front line to support pushes or help defend... that was also the case in NS1 though. It helps that any alien will instantly know if a structure is under attack thanks to hivesight, while marines can be innocently oblivious to their main base being wrecked behind them.
I'm not sure it's a problem. Lets say it is capped by hives, that means that at the start of the game, any crags beyond the third don't affect your armour level, so it's easy to reach that upgrade level. At 2 hives, you have more crags to worry about if you want to keep your tech going high enough to counter marine upgrades, but you also inherently have more map control what with the second hive, so it's not unmanageable. Ditto for 3 hives, naturally.
<!--quoteo(post=1810734:date=Nov 26 2010, 05:29 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Nov 26 2010, 05:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1810734"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Isn't it a bit odd if the aliens get upgrades from building structures but then don't need structures to power them?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Aliens don't need power, the marines do. Aliens don't also build structures, they grow them and they evolve, it doesn't seem that odd really.
Also, the same thing happens to marines in regards to upgrades/unlocking weapons and loosing structures.
<!--quoteo(post=1810734:date=Nov 26 2010, 05:29 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Nov 26 2010, 05:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1810734"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Does it work on max or how many you build? If you build 3 crags, demolish them, then build 3 more, have you built 6 crags?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Is demolishing as alien a new feature or something? Only marines can recycle/demolish in the NS2 I'm testing.
But no, you have not. Game detects only 3 crags being active, that is 3 crags, no matter how many of them got blown to smitherines.
<!--quoteo(post=1810734:date=Nov 26 2010, 05:29 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Nov 26 2010, 05:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1810734"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What happens if you build six but only have one hive, do you get all the upgrades?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No. Same as the current system. You require two hives to get access to the 2nd teir upgrades.
<!--quoteo(post=1810734:date=Nov 26 2010, 05:29 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Nov 26 2010, 05:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1810734"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What happens if you lose a hive?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The EXACT same thing that happens for the aliens NOW and when the marines loose a commander center.
Nothing
<!--quoteo(post=1810734:date=Nov 26 2010, 05:29 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Nov 26 2010, 05:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1810734"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What happens if you lose the crags but then build a second hive, does it then enable the full upgrade because you met the all of the criteria at some point but not all at once?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nothing happens, Your upgrades wont increase until you meet the minimum required amount of hives/buildings for the next level.
In NS1 your upgrades as a marine were temporarily lost if the appropriate structure was lost, which I suspect is going to happen in NS2 as well, so it's not totally one-sided.
But they do tend to keep all their upgrade structures safe in their base, whereas aliens often make chambers on the front line to support pushes or help defend... that was also the case in NS1 though. It helps that any alien will instantly know if a structure is under attack thanks to hivesight, while marines can be innocently oblivious to their main base being wrecked behind them.
I'm not sure it's a problem. Lets say it is capped by hives, that means that at the start of the game, any crags beyond the third don't affect your armour level, so it's easy to reach that upgrade level. At 2 hives, you have more crags to worry about if you want to keep your tech going high enough to counter marine upgrades, but you also inherently have more map control what with the second hive, so it's not unmanageable. Ditto for 3 hives, naturally.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'd certainly be a lot happier if both sides lost upgrades as they lost structures.
Perhpas for marines you also need multiple armories, and if you have fewer than 3 armories you lose upgrades until you get them back.
You still need to research upgrades as marines, you just need several armories to power them, aliens get their upgrades simply from having structures and if they lose structures they lose upgrades.
Still a bit different but should be more balanced because like you said, alien structures are more frontline than marine structures so they're going to be in danger.
with one Hive you have access to 3 points of armor, so building 3 crags is all you really can do, once you build the 2nd hive and upgrade to a hive mass, you get access to 6 points, so you have to have 6 crags built, if you get all 6 crags build, but then have 3 of them killed, then you still have the 6 points that you built before, but if you were get a third hive, and then upgrade to a hive colony, you would still have to rebuild those 3 crags that were lost, and then 3 more to get to lvl 9.
with one Hive you have access to 3 points of armor, so building 3 crags is all you really can do, once you build the 2nd hive and upgrade to a hive mass, you get access to 6 points, so you have to have 6 crags built, if you get all 6 crags build, but then have 3 of them killed, then you still have the 6 points that you built before, but if you were get a third hive, and then upgrade to a hive colony, you would still have to rebuild those 3 crags that were lost, and then 3 more to get to lvl 9.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
one of the great things about ns1 was that targeting upgrade structures had a noticeable effect on the other team. If you were losing territory and tech-wise, you could even the score by sniping the upgrade structures and make a comeback. This would be completely lost in your proposed system.