I don't like the Comm changes [157]
Koruyo
AUT Join Date: 2009-06-06 Member: 67724Members, Reinforced - Shadow
AUT Join Date: 2009-06-06 Member: 67724Members, Reinforced - Shadow
<!--coloro:#696969--><span style="color:#696969"><!--/coloro--><!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->This is getting a ns1 clone with dynamic infestation and powernodes. I bet they QQ babys will get the old weapon drop system in next patch...<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Now my first QQ-Thread:
Making marine main-builders didnt change anything... they are still run&gun-ing. (if that was why you changed it)
Macs build too slow to be usefull.
The new Comm UI changes doesn't feel right. (For me. I liked the builder-common-RTS-style better.)
Marines are bunkering even more... because expanding and building is so slow now. (maybe marineplayers are all naps or maybe aliens are too powerful - last game i was com and still had most kills without sentrys)
So what is left?
I usually place and build structures myself, hopping in and out of the commstation every few minutes/secs.
Sure sometimes marines build, but usually they dont see structures or just ignore my waypoints.
If you really think the old way fits best - <!--coloro:#98FB98--><span style="color:#98FB98"><!--/coloro-->Please make, that "unbuild" structures have an icon (like a waypoint) visible for every marine that it needs to be constructed.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
I know some ppl will disagree with me...
However, i wont play marine commander anymore(even with my suggestion) - i dont like the new/old mixed style.
<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Now my first QQ-Thread:
Making marine main-builders didnt change anything... they are still run&gun-ing. (if that was why you changed it)
Macs build too slow to be usefull.
The new Comm UI changes doesn't feel right. (For me. I liked the builder-common-RTS-style better.)
Marines are bunkering even more... because expanding and building is so slow now. (maybe marineplayers are all naps or maybe aliens are too powerful - last game i was com and still had most kills without sentrys)
So what is left?
I usually place and build structures myself, hopping in and out of the commstation every few minutes/secs.
Sure sometimes marines build, but usually they dont see structures or just ignore my waypoints.
If you really think the old way fits best - <!--coloro:#98FB98--><span style="color:#98FB98"><!--/coloro-->Please make, that "unbuild" structures have an icon (like a waypoint) visible for every marine that it needs to be constructed.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
I know some ppl will disagree with me...
However, i wont play marine commander anymore(even with my suggestion) - i dont like the new/old mixed style.
Comments
it was that powernode in observatory. the one right by the res node. we were advancing on that hive there, com dropped an armory so we could get health and ammo. but the power was out. so we had to fall back to the powernode (and wait for the com to realise there was no power there for the armory). the mac showed up and the entire team was guarding the mac while he fixed the power node, holding off the other teams 2 fades. shortly after that the server crashed, but it was the most fun id had in alpha/beta sofar. my only gripes are that I couldnt tell when i was building because the gun model was still on screen, and I had no waypoint indicator (that I could tell). but im sure thatll be added sometime soon if its not in the game yet. if it is i may have just mistaken it. is it that little downward arrow thing? anyway, great patch.
Marines who clear rooms in groups, secure it, build and cover each other simultaneously...they're the ones who succeed.
The new changes force cooperation between commander and Marines in a way similar to NS1.
You make a good point about unbuilt structures, however, Marine commanders can place waypoints, but they don't seem to do this actively enough.
When they do, work gets done much more efficiently. Having all structures tagged with an "unbuilt" waypoint could potentially be irritating and clutter the players' screens, but depending on how its implemented (only shows up if player is within like 5-10 meters), then I think it's not too bad of an idea.
That said, I love the style overall.
I think what you may be seeing is unfortunately just not very smart players or people just jumping into the BETA for the first or second time and still sort of exploring and experimenting themselves. Could also just get those who just want to try the new build without really "playing".
All in all I love all the new changes and I especially love how they made the MACS more of a support unit rather then the main builder. That tension I loved in NS1 is back :)
In NS1 you would have 1 or 2 people stay back in base and build up the base while the rest of the team went up and advanced to set up forward bases and res nodes.
Because there are only 3 people you can either decide to have both stay in base to set up real quick, send one out and one in base... (the one sent out will mostly get destroyed by 2 skulks)... or send them both out and you as a commander have to keep hopping out of your command chair to protect and build stuff in the base while trying to send stuff out to your team.
This makes it almost impossible to really get a flow going with your team... especially if you have one teammate who doesnt care and just runs around trying to kill things.
Until the servers and game is a little more optimized to have more players the marines are going to feel weak.
Their strong point is working in small squads. Yesterday I was playing in a server where we had pretty much taken over the entire map on alien... and a squad of 4 marines came by and almost wiped out one of our hives because they came in as a team.
My first game on marine side, our commander was calling the shots, and we were obeying. We made a team effort to get our base built up, then pushed West Wing (ns_rockdown) only to find the aliens had planted a hive there. We used teamwork to have a couple marines hack the hive while another covered, and the comm dropped a few health packs down for us.
After we took it down, the comm held two of us back for building up a West Wing base, and had the remaining marines return to main base which was under attack and we defended timely. From there, we discussed and agreed on that going flamethrower was the next step, as we were under heavy assault from lerks in the rafter at West Wing.
From there, the comm directed us to push towards main hive, providing us ammo and health on the way. He ninja restored a power node outside main hive while we covered the MAC, then he dropped an armory and two sentries for us. From there, we just kept pounding the hive until we won.
Played a few more games afterward on marines and aliens, all the games had a similar experience. I saw a few of you from the forums on at one point, I remember seeing Paisand. I was even a secondary commander in one of them, and I found the comm UI to be much more intuitive and cleaned up. Anyway...multiplayer experiences will differ, but I think you're wrong to base a conclusion on your limited experience.
I'd also like to state that i hate holding down the 'E' button for long durations while staring at a slowly building object that's going "zap...zap...zap...". How about we make it so structures auto build when marines are just standing next to it, so i can at least defend myself against any enemies. I mean the entire concept of marines covering you while you build is nonsense right now with no more then 12 player servers currently and 3 vs 3 as the norm (not like 1 marine spamming 50 rounds of blanks is going to protect you much anyway... took me 3 magazines to kill a skulk yesterday that was bouncing all over the place, regardless of all the green-indicated hits i was scoring).
Overall i think the problem is marines want to kill, and all aliens ever had to do was killing... Why do marines need to build and aliens don't? I wanna see skulks building ###### for once!!! (Cmon i wanna see "Added alien build ability". Make them build the first hive :P)
Btw i'm sure if we had a minimap and on the side of the screen listed orders (make it look like pivotal tracker xD), that this would be better because then we could further sever the commander-marine bottleneck so marines can get their orders in an automated sense (order the list of work by distance (and mention the distance) to the objective and constantly re-sort the list as the marine wonders the map [with an option for com to set priority to an objective so it always appears at the top of the list]... And when the marine gets close to an objective then have like a text-message docked at the top or bottom of the screen that says "Arriving at objective: Build: CC, 3x Sentries, Obs"). Then a commander, if needed, can just still set a waypoint... Actually i just realized that a waypoint is nothing more then a task... so why not add it to the objective-list as a priority item? (yes we still need the on-screen triangle so we know which direction to ###### go lol) Yes ok so otherwise the objectives can be completed basically in whatever order the marine wants to do them, so perhaps by clicking an objective that this produces a waypoint for you automatically, and moves the item from the constantly-resorting-by-distance objective-list to the pinned-priority-list.
--------------------------------
How to bypass the poor nerfed mac-building speed:
1) Build 3+ macs.
2) Select all macs.
3) Move them to ###### that needs to be built.
Navigation problem:
# Build menu
# Build menu when Build Bot selected
# Can go back from build bot to existing build menu (confusing)
Just make it so that when you click on the build bot, certain things are blanked out.
Although due to the game startup being weird. Most people end up spectating at start and the only marines run off and die instead of making an ip.
Also, on a balancing note, the fact that the alien structures build by themselves is pretty op. Skulk rushes seem to be pretty good in Build 157, because the alien comm doesn't have to worry about players staying behind to build, while the marine comm does. If you're going to nerf MAC build rate, at least do the same to drifters.
Granted, I will say that MAC build speed needs to be rebalanced back up some, but it's not a game changer.
Granted, I will say that MAC build speed needs to be rebalanced back up some, but it's not a game changer.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
QFT
QFT.
The whole map is alien territory the second the game starts.
I didnt lose a single game as alien yet. (~10 alien games in 157, usually most kills on either side but marine team is not forgiving on fails at timing/fast building the right stuff)
i haven't really had a bad experience as comm. and i attribute that solely to my microphone.
people listen when you talk to them. if someone isnt listening, call them out by name. i've had alot of good games where we came back to win it from behind because we managed to pull of some organized assaults that granted us some much needed tech advances.
The whole map is alien territory the second the game starts.
I didnt lose a single game as alien yet. (~10 alien games in 157, usually most kills on either side but marine team is not forgiving on fails at timing/fast building the right stuff)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As long as the game is balanced in the end, I'd be in favor of the dynamic of having Marines be forced into aggression to seize map control. It fits the NS 'storyline' nicely.
Just because you say it, it doesn't make it true. While it's technically true that the commander could erect a structure all by himself. The MAC is essentially defenseless and requires cooperation from the marines to guard it while it builds the structure. While those with an agenda liked to ignore it, there actually was a great deal of teamwork and cooperation already needed to successfully play the game prior to 157.
all because something is "new" doesnt make it good or "evolved" im sure youre a huge fan of matchmaking too eh?
teamwork, like what? in b156 i played countless games where not one word was spoken between teammates on either side.
Fact is this old system worked in ns1 - slower gameplay, bigger maps, only 1 builder=gorge, 3hives, no need for more than 1 cc... etc.
But ns2 is different... in a lot ways... its more action and faster, smaller maps, less time to just stand around and build. Sure i can take 3-4macs to build but its still bit slower while more risky... (energy doesnt grow on trees... marines care even less about macs then before... -id rather have one good mac i have to care about than 4-8 crappy ones)
Im not saying one or the other is best, but this all needs some more work, still.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->not one word was spoken between teammates<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This depends on the server and ppl playing.
You cant force ppl to talk in public games.
Exactly my point, albeit unintended on your part I guess. There's no teamwork because people don't communicate, which is simply because a) it's beta and b) there are no established server communities. It has nothing to do with how building is done. I've had a few 157 games now, and the level of communication hasn't changed at all from earlier versions. Just like in 156 there are "good" games and bad ones, depending on the server, the people and the mood. I've had 157 games where no one (including myself) spoke a word. I had a game where I was comm and my team didn't build a single friggin building, even when I placed them directly in front of their eyes. They didn't care to protect the MACs either. Consequently we lost.
That being said I'm willing to give marine building more time and see how it develops through a couple iterations. But I have the fear that the game is being dumbed down.
Interesting indeed, in NS1 it was the marines who had to move out for alien res. This style we have at the moment requires marine team to take much more defensive position in the begining. I'll reserve my opinion of balance until we get the first pcws going.