Current design leads to slippery slope gameplay
Licho
Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 3858Members, NS1 Playtester
Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 3858Members, NS1 Playtester
I think it's not very good that both marines and aliens compete for same spots for technological advancements. This inevitably leads to slippery slope gameplay.
It also makes the game very sensitive to start - first seconds matters most, can marines get second hive spot secured or not?
In NS1 it was neatly avoided with resources allowing marines to tech even without spots and aliens being ultimately powerful with all hives. It created interesting dynamics where comebacks were psossible and dramatic moments were common.
Another problem of current system is that you need to upgrade CC/Hive to reach "tech level" and tech level then stays. Problem is mainly in interface - its not apparent to players if that level is reached, whats upgrading and what not and its extremely important.
Also atm. alien upgrades are rather weak (except for leap upgrade). I cannot tell difference between fully upgraded skulk and basic one. Alien gameplay feels bland without extra abilities and selectable upgrades and gorge buildable structures. Both factions feel too similar.
Marine gameplay still feels a bit detached, because marines shop their guns themselves. It used to be nice "reward" - you could give your best marine shotgun at start etc. I like the automatic squads concept though. Phase gates and turret factories made for interesting key spots and moments. Power nodes try to mitigate their loss but atm they are more of annoynce (as aliens you just kill them in free time)
It also makes the game very sensitive to start - first seconds matters most, can marines get second hive spot secured or not?
In NS1 it was neatly avoided with resources allowing marines to tech even without spots and aliens being ultimately powerful with all hives. It created interesting dynamics where comebacks were psossible and dramatic moments were common.
Another problem of current system is that you need to upgrade CC/Hive to reach "tech level" and tech level then stays. Problem is mainly in interface - its not apparent to players if that level is reached, whats upgrading and what not and its extremely important.
Also atm. alien upgrades are rather weak (except for leap upgrade). I cannot tell difference between fully upgraded skulk and basic one. Alien gameplay feels bland without extra abilities and selectable upgrades and gorge buildable structures. Both factions feel too similar.
Marine gameplay still feels a bit detached, because marines shop their guns themselves. It used to be nice "reward" - you could give your best marine shotgun at start etc. I like the automatic squads concept though. Phase gates and turret factories made for interesting key spots and moments. Power nodes try to mitigate their loss but atm they are more of annoynce (as aliens you just kill them in free time)
Comments
Second hive and third abilities would indeed be nice also upgrades need to have a reason. (armor1 = 1 more bite for skulk unless it has +1 attack upg. / 2 armor 1 more for fades unless they have w1 etc)
Hope you get the point.
In the end it will probably all change with dynamic infestation dependency for the Khaara tp balance this out (I hope)
I would agree, the gameplay as of now is very dependent on the commander in the first few seconds... but I also believe this is because aliens, currently, are able to dominate large areas of the map easily. As it isn't very easy to hit a skulk in many games, and Lerks and skulks are extremely effective.
While it is interesting to start talking about game balance, the grenade launchers and flame throwers for example had to be nerfed... its going to be increasingly hard to make good changes until the game becomes more stable, at least from my experience playing.
I don't think that phrase means what you think it means.
And holy smokey all games are dependent on their openings. That does not make it slippery slope. Similar to teching.
i think your wrong
I may be wrong but with DI I believe the Aliens wont be able to blockade the Marine in so easily as the Skulks must first chew up all the power nodeson route and the DI must catch up before the crags and whips can be placed ( just like how the marine commander cant just send old MAC down to the hive and load up on sentries).
Without the crag and whip support the early skulk rush is repellable if the marines have some skill, and occasionally the skulk rush may work if the skulks have some skill its more skill based.
Result is that it is near immpossible to guage gameplay strategies imbalances in the current form, and so adjusting balance to counter current issues is probably futile... example:
Crag heals too much, nerf crag heals. DI added later and crags dont effect game till later on when the DI has spread to the frontlines but by this time the marines are upgraded a few times and the damage dealt is much higher than the vanilla marine is capable now the crag heals are too weak to be that effective in the battle.
( note I am just using the crag as a example and not to say the recent change to the crag heal was wrong, it just an hypothetical example )
In short until we have both the marine Powergrid and the alien DI in its hard to correctly guage gameplay elements... oh, and this is not a beg for DI to be added as I am fine with it being held back till the servers and clients can run a decent game sans lag and issues.
Not to mention skulk bite max distance which is seemingly almost 2 meters.
Thats pretty normal in all RTS, but NS1 had at least some compensating mechanism - RT vs hives and different "teching". Marines only needed time, aliens needed spots.
Now both sides need spots and there is no assymetry.
We are talking about RTS with many people ingame and slippery slope can lead to massive frustration, and "predetermined" games.
Slippery slope is currently manifested in huge sensitivity to beginning. If marines manage to secure one more spot at start, they usually win due to grenades, flamers etc.
If they fail to do so, you will most likely have long boring game and eventually die.
Slippery slope leads to instability and big sensitivity to small changes early on - its like exponential growth. Imo in this game it should be held back if possible to improve "ordinary player" experience.
Most fun moments are "come backs" and "against odds" victories. Slippery slope makes such moments very unlikely because there is no period of relative stability between forces.
And each new spot makes you more powerful, meaning opponent has lower chance to take that spot back from you.
In NS1 marines could tech with time (and resources). Now there is no such thing.
You secure tech spot early (as marines) - you can upgrade CC instantly and get grenades and flamethrowers and just march through aliens (even if you lose second tech spot now).
You fail to secure tech spot early - aliens clog it with whips and craigs and you have virtually no chance of comeback - having no capability to upgrade weapons.
Perhaps with more abilities and more complete game it will improve.
Now in NS2 it seems that once a certain upgrade is unlocked you'll not lose it until the round ends. Losing the second Command Station will not throw you back to tier 1. Even if the upgrade to tier 2 hasn't completed when the second CS is destroyed it will simply keep going. Once you have access to GLs you can get them from every armory, including the non-upgraded ones, even if you lose the original AA. Same for aliens.
Has this been talked about, yet? Is it a design decision? Is it a good idea? Personally I'd prefer it if upgrades could be taken away again by destroying the respective structure.
As marines, you need power and supply to claim a zone, and power can be supplied either by a local power node, or by two or more adjacent power nodes, so if the power node in an area but two or more areas next to it are powered, power will stay on. That should stop aliens from running through destroying all nodes. Supply is simply the idea that all command chairs need to be connected, you can only expand to a location which is adjacent to an existing command chair, so marines can't simply jump across the map at will and set up bases all over the place.
Aliens on the other hand need DI to claim a zone, they can only build on DI. So alien control is measured by the slow spread of DI across the map. it spreads slowly in powered areas but unpowered areas will grow it quickly.
Both sides should also be able to secure power nodes, marines can build an armored case over it to make it more resistant to damage by aliens, but which can be easily removed by DI spreading onto it or whip bombards. Aliens on the other hand can grow DI over the power node which will require the area to be burned clean or otherwise have the DI removed, and you could also add a secondary function to the MASC/ARC like a sonic emitter which lets it deploy somewhere and clear out DI in its range.
The overall effect should be that marines will expand steadily through powered areas, getting at least a second chair before encountering any contest, at which point they will need to fight for control of new nodes by burning away DI and killing structures that generate it in order to restore power. Aliens will expand slowly, but their expansion is automatic to a degree, the DI will continue to infest areas and the alien commander can colonise them with hives or simply deny the area to marines by locking down the power node.
The slowed expansion time should mean that aliens can't deny marine expansion by killing all the power and structure spamming, while marines can't simply rush and blow up the hives because they'll be fighting on DI in the dark and will need a coordinated effort and some relatively late game tech to push it back. Aliens don't need supply so they can expand anywhere the DI has grown, so they are still more mobile although their influence takes time to spread, whereas marines need to expand one room at a time. Marines on the other hand start with an early expansion benefit as they should be able to get their second chair up quite easily. I might also suggest adding a four tier tech tree for the marines as under this system marines would be building more CCs than aliens would hives.
Combine that with a bit of research time on command facilities and hive masses and so on, and you should get a good bit of use out of early lifeforms and rifles before moving onto fades and flamers and whatnot.
Alien commander = useless because they didnt create a class they just took abilities from the the gorge pretty much.
marines lose if they dont immediately leave MS and get a 2nd com chair up. and even then the tech tree for upgrades is insane. you have to get 2nd com chair up, get armory up, upgrade the com chair and armory, then upgrade the armory yet again. and this is exasterbasted by the current armory bug. lol i was comming yesterday and we finally got flamethrowers up, only for the armory to get bugged immediately. so i had to redrop a armory, upgrade it twice again.. i just hope the final wont have as convuluted tech tree as there is currently.
Once you have access to the weapons (flamethrower, gl) and it bugs out, you just need to build a new one - not upgrade it as well.
But I agree, it seems that there is a 'more is better' approach with the tech tree.
It makes no sense to me, because it all relates to an FPS game at the end of the day and the finesse and details of each upgrade/weapon/structure should be very highly examined and implemented really nicely. In RTS games you don't really feel what happens on the ground level.
It is how I have said that the weapons do not have any 'feel' or character at the moment. It feels like they are adding stuff in, but not understanding how it relates to a really cool fps aspect, just the maths of weapon x > weapon Y.
The flame-thrower for instance, is just a LMG but better - if you see what I mean. It does not have the character weaknesses/strengths that may place it more appropriately within the game.
How say a sniper scope limits your vision, limits your movement and aim speed, takes time to fire between shots, has a certain satisfying feel when it fires.
This is the negative/positive aspect each weapon needs to have more character - and play a useful part in balance and game feel.
No, imho that should be the GL's role. I find it more interesting to make the GL effective against armor/structures, and have the flamer for DI/unarmored. That way you preserve some niche for the weapons.
While slippery slopes have always been part of RTS, the real issue is the possible lack of <i>tactical versatility</i>. And to be honest assymmetry is one of many issues affecting tactical versatility. For example, different enough weapons, different units, skill-based movement-systems all add to tactical versatility. But assymmetry is probably quite close, as it means diversity between kharaa and marines.
In my opinion, the solution would to decrease the amount of resflow and weapons in the game. This would put emphasis on efficient usage of weapons and smart decisions. And decrease the importance of tech points, making RTs more important. This would decentralize the combat a bit and reward tactical thinking over (local) skill advantange. When there're several points in the game to acquire, destroy and defend at the same time, the game becomes much more interesting as it allows more options and discourages hydra or turret spamming tech points.
Haymo, oh definitely, NS1 was the closest game to a perfect game, but let's not carried away shall we.. :)
I would agree, the gameplay as of now is very dependent on the commander in the first few seconds... but I also believe this is because aliens, currently, are able to dominate large areas of the map easily. As it isn't very easy to hit a skulk in many games, and Lerks and skulks are extremely effective.
While it is interesting to start talking about game balance, the grenade launchers and flame throwers for example had to be nerfed... its going to be increasingly hard to make good changes until the game becomes more stable, at least from my experience playing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
100% correct.
Currently the most played map is Rock Down. For certain reasons. The game performs best on that map right now because of technical issues. Tram can become very laggy due to the fact that it is bigger and systems are working harder to render and process everything, coupled with the fact the game is not fully optimized. Rock Down is a 5 tech point map...but it is small and mostly close quarter combat....something Aliens THRIVE in.
But back on point. 5 tech points, unless one team is incredibly stupid, would allow for the Marines and Aliens to get tier 2. After that it's a battle for the 5th. And surely, just like 3 hives in NS1 would almost certainly ensure victory, but not all the time, tier 3 tech would play a big part in deciding what team is going to win but still giving the other team a fighting chance given that Tier 2 tech isn't all that bad.
Im sure once the game has become more polished and optimized and more maps are released you will see this start to take effect. Junction and Rock Down were mainly built for testing. We'll see more 5 tech point maps in the future. How ever I do agree. If a Hive or CC is destroyed it should remove the technology that became available when it was built. Notice you have to upgrade at least one hive or CC to gain access. Losing a hive or CC shouldn't make you have to research that tier again...just simply get the hive or CC back up and running. Basicly like a quick fix for losing that structure. Don't want to penalize the team with another waiting period of upgrading the CC to tier 3 again.