Ok, it's running pretty well now
Ryo-Ohki
Join Date: 2009-03-26 Member: 66917Members
Join Date: 2009-03-26 Member: 66917Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Let's start talking balance</div>Now that the engine side of things seems to be running well, it's time we started looking at the balance side of things. Obviously there are features not yet implimented, but the majority fall definitely within the late-game period (Exosuits, Onos, seige cannon, jetpack etc). As such, their eventual implimentation won't have a major effect on the early and mid game phases of gameplay.
<u><b>Early game</b></u>
The first problem, which is probably related to Rockdown being so small, is the strength of the first alien attack on the marine start. This has a tendancy of ending games extremely quickly, as the marine team often only has a handful of players spawning in initially, with the rest being in the respawn queue waiting for an IP that half the time never arrives.
Suggestion: Game start timer like NS1, during which time you would spawn in without an IP.
<u><b>Mid game</b></u>
If the Marine side can get a second CC up, then the Aliens essentially are living on borrowed time. They have to kill the marine team quickly, because once Flamethrowers come out, it's all over. The flamethrower as it stands is just too powerful, for a number of reasons. It epitomises spray and pray; just wave it in the general direction of the enemy and they're screwed. That's nothing though compared to it's blinding effect; a lot of the time higher tier lifeforms could well escape, if it weren't for the flamethrower blocking their vision completely.
Before the damage of the flamethrower is looked at, it's blinding effect MUST be first priority. Hell, disable the flames altogether until a better particle system is worked out. At least that way we could get some meaningful testing of mid-game damage done.
Coversely, if the marine team doesn't get a second CC up early, they tend to be the ones who get screwed. Marine tier 1 is poor at best against the Alien team, not least because Aliens are so good at taking down Marine structures, but Marines are so poor at taking down Alien structures. One major reason for that is Sentry guns; their limited field of fire is supposed to be balanced by their higher damage, but I can tell you that I've seen lone whips stopping entire Marine teams. 1 sentry is a laughable threat by comparison. Even when they do fire, their damage is hardly anything to be feared, especially considering the higher mobility of the alien team.
Suggestion: Increase sentry gun damage or decrease their cost. Right now they're only worth building if you have oddles of res to spare, and under the new res system, that's a rare thing.
Lets hear your thoughts testers!
<u><b>Early game</b></u>
The first problem, which is probably related to Rockdown being so small, is the strength of the first alien attack on the marine start. This has a tendancy of ending games extremely quickly, as the marine team often only has a handful of players spawning in initially, with the rest being in the respawn queue waiting for an IP that half the time never arrives.
Suggestion: Game start timer like NS1, during which time you would spawn in without an IP.
<u><b>Mid game</b></u>
If the Marine side can get a second CC up, then the Aliens essentially are living on borrowed time. They have to kill the marine team quickly, because once Flamethrowers come out, it's all over. The flamethrower as it stands is just too powerful, for a number of reasons. It epitomises spray and pray; just wave it in the general direction of the enemy and they're screwed. That's nothing though compared to it's blinding effect; a lot of the time higher tier lifeforms could well escape, if it weren't for the flamethrower blocking their vision completely.
Before the damage of the flamethrower is looked at, it's blinding effect MUST be first priority. Hell, disable the flames altogether until a better particle system is worked out. At least that way we could get some meaningful testing of mid-game damage done.
Coversely, if the marine team doesn't get a second CC up early, they tend to be the ones who get screwed. Marine tier 1 is poor at best against the Alien team, not least because Aliens are so good at taking down Marine structures, but Marines are so poor at taking down Alien structures. One major reason for that is Sentry guns; their limited field of fire is supposed to be balanced by their higher damage, but I can tell you that I've seen lone whips stopping entire Marine teams. 1 sentry is a laughable threat by comparison. Even when they do fire, their damage is hardly anything to be feared, especially considering the higher mobility of the alien team.
Suggestion: Increase sentry gun damage or decrease their cost. Right now they're only worth building if you have oddles of res to spare, and under the new res system, that's a rare thing.
Lets hear your thoughts testers!
Comments
Only imba thing about flamethrower is over blinding effect.
Only imba thing about aliens is they can get hives up right away (retarded build time and cost).
Dont touch anything else until FPS, reg and unit-clipping are FIXED.
/rant
Hopefully next patch will help with Skulk rushes.
I would rather two strong sentries facing and covering one way, then 4+ trying to cover one room badly. (Most rooms are not square)
Played on the severs last night - you spend more time looking after the build bot than players because it is 50 Plasma? What is the deal with resources as well... towards the end of the match I had 350 carbon, and 20 plasma. It eventually got to 99 plasma... but carbon is in huge abundance.
I am sure this will all be balanced, but I feel regret that things are being balanced more and more like NS. I'd rather see big weaknesses/strengths depending on damage, movement, R.O.F, weapon feel, hearing, view... that simple damage x = damage Y just does nothing for the FPS experience.
I must say the LMG feels good to use now... sounds have improved the feel.
GL seems useless against aliens now, a fade can easily take you out unless you have a flamer. The GL (to me) has become underpowered because it is an attachment... I would rather see it as an expensive solo weapon. So you can't just go running into hives. Again, more powerful but larger weakness - requires a squady to cover you, or you have to fight with pistol.
I think this is the thing that is holding back the weapon feel and game balance to me. The aliens are so different, but the marines weapons just feel so samey to me. The shotgun/LMG/Pistol are the only ones that are working - in terms of balance, fit and game play - for me.
Armouries often go "ghost" and become unusable. ###### pain in the ass.
IPs often lock up and stop working even though they SHOULD be working. ###### pain in the ass and game breaking.
Performance is ABYSMAL, under 30fps (Vsync off) - Crysis is more graphically demanding and I can run that at 160fps (Vsync off). My ping shows up as <100ms but if I look at net_stats it shows between 180ms and 250ms. Make your mind up? Server rate is also ABYSMAL, I was playing a 3v3 with NO turrets and NO hydras - server was ticking at 5fps and everyone was rubberbandings. Sometimes I would rubberband across an entire room - NO GOOD PERFORMANCE.
So no, ###### balance, lets focus on fixing the goddamn engine.
no more to say
I still think it's too early for balance discussions, aside from details like game start timer or blind effects (both of which are scheduled in the progress tracker).
Alien structures can build themselves, marines can't
Alien structures and players autoheal, marines don't
Aliens have an area effect heal structure (crag), marines don't
Aliens have two 360 degree attack structures (hydra and whip), marines have none
Drifters only cost 30 energy, MACs cost 50 energy
Aliens can build anywhere, marines are restricted to enabled power nodes
Aliens can get their (currently) most powerful upgrade (fade) much faster than marines can get theirs (flamethrower)
Taking down the marines spawning capacity is much easier than the aliens (IP hp << hive hp)
Some of these will probably be fixed (or at least lessened) by future features (DI, ARC), but I don't think the marine team should see any more nerfs until some of these imbalances are mitigated.
Alien structures can build themselves, marines can't
Alien structures and players autoheal, marines don't
Aliens have an area effect heal structure (crag), marines don't
Aliens have two 360 degree attack structures (hydra and whip), marines have none
Drifters only cost 30 energy, MACs cost 50 energy
Aliens can build anywhere, marines are restricted to enabled power nodes
Aliens can get their (currently) most powerful upgrade (fade) much faster than marines can get theirs (flamethrower)
Taking down the marines spawning capacity is much easier than the aliens (IP hp << hive hp)
Some of these will probably be fixed (or at least lessened) by future features (DI, ARC), but I don't think the marine team should see any more nerfs until some of these imbalances are mitigated.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think the IP and med/ammo spam concepts are both pretty stupid.
Why have the most important structure be weak and hard to protect? Also why the hell would you not spawn with one? What's the point? Why does a simple thing like healing require stupid amounts of micro by the commander? Why not use a good mechanic like crags to automate the process?
It's like marines are playing the original command and conquer and aliens are playing company of heroes, marines have crappy outdated mechanics while aliens have access to intelligent modern RTS mechanics which get rid of all the stupid busy work.
IPs need to be tougher or perhaps simply stuck onto the side of the CC, ammo/medpsam needs to be removed and replaced with some sort of ammo/health supply unit which can be moved around, possibly a modification of the MASC to add an ammo/health supply, or just an ammo supply and marines get medkits which can be used on other players but which work less on themselves, like in killing floor.
Transponders need to work, as far as I know they currently don't do anything, but marines need to reinforce in the field. Marines could also do with more health, they need HA/JP to be competitive with later alien classes, otherwise they just die from everything and any marine push gets annihilated too easily. Either that or they need to be able to simply push along a CC chain or something with structure support, at the moment the aliens can push almost entirely with offensive strikes followed by defensive structure placement.
I would suggest you add more marine support which can keep a heal and rearm a pushing squad, protect it from damage in the first place, and allow it to replace lost members, as well as lock down secured areas easily. At the moment the marines can barely do any of those things.
That is already the case, stand near a armory and you get healed. Not having an IP is also good because it gives the marines the choice to directly relocate. But it should allow the marines to spawn without a IP for the first minute of the game or so.
<!--quoteo(post=1815116:date=Dec 11 2010, 09:17 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Dec 11 2010, 09:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1815116"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's like marines are playing the original command and conquer and aliens are playing company of heroes, marines have crappy outdated mechanics while aliens have access to intelligent modern RTS mechanics which get rid of all the stupid busy work.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not true, the two teams are just different.
<!--quoteo(post=1815116:date=Dec 11 2010, 09:17 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Dec 11 2010, 09:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1815116"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->IPs need to be tougher or perhaps simply stuck onto the side of the CC, ammo/medpsam needs to be removed and replaced with some sort of ammo/health supply unit which can be moved around, possibly a modification of the MASC to add an ammo/health supply, or just an ammo supply and marines get medkits which can be used on other players but which work less on themselves, like in killing floor.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
While i'm no fan of medspaming, as said, the armory has that role, thats why many commanders build one when pushing into a new area.
<!--quoteo(post=1815116:date=Dec 11 2010, 09:17 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Dec 11 2010, 09:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1815116"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Transponders need to work, as far as I know they currently don't do anything, but marines need to reinforce in the field. Marines could also do with more health, they need HA/JP to be competitive with later alien classes, otherwise they just die from everything and any marine push gets annihilated too easily. Either that or they need to be able to simply push along a CC chain or something with structure support, at the moment the aliens can push almost entirely with offensive strikes followed by defensive structure placement.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Lets see how that works out when all features are in.
<!--quoteo(post=1815116:date=Dec 11 2010, 09:17 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Dec 11 2010, 09:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1815116"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I would suggest you add more marine support which can keep a heal and rearm a pushing squad, protect it from damage in the first place, and allow it to replace lost members, as well as lock down secured areas easily. At the moment the marines can barely do any of those things.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again, try out the armory. and yes, i think the turrets need some work, but they already got better.
Why have the most important structure be weak and hard to protect? Also why the hell would you not spawn with one? What's the point? Why does a simple thing like healing require stupid amounts of micro by the commander? Why not use a good mechanic like crags to automate the process?
It's like marines are playing the original command and conquer and aliens are playing company of heroes, marines have crappy outdated mechanics while aliens have access to intelligent modern RTS mechanics which get rid of all the stupid busy work.
IPs need to be tougher or perhaps simply stuck onto the side of the CC, ammo/medpsam needs to be removed and replaced with some sort of ammo/health supply unit which can be moved around, possibly a modification of the MASC to add an ammo/health supply, or just an ammo supply and marines get medkits which can be used on other players but which work less on themselves, like in killing floor.
Transponders need to work, as far as I know they currently don't do anything, but marines need to reinforce in the field. Marines could also do with more health, they need HA/JP to be competitive with later alien classes, otherwise they just die from everything and any marine push gets annihilated too easily. Either that or they need to be able to simply push along a CC chain or something with structure support, at the moment the aliens can push almost entirely with offensive strikes followed by defensive structure placement.
I would suggest you add more marine support which can keep a heal and rearm a pushing squad, protect it from damage in the first place, and allow it to replace lost members, as well as lock down secured areas easily. At the moment the marines can barely do any of those things.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
a lot of this could be fixed if some elements of the much hated ns1 were brought back. if coms could drop the observatory like they could in ns one, then this problem would be solved, they could either beacon or research the squad upgrade. they could offset the power of the squad upgrade early on by making it more costly. ammo and medspam are fine. doesnt need to be removed/replaced because they have a cost to using them and they are only an option (you do know that a com can drop an armory and marines can use that too right?). I seriously dont see how you cant see how unbalanced a mobile ammo/regen station would be for ranged attackers, you could easily steamroll to a hive, healing and with full ammo the entire way. it would render lerks basically obsolete. fades would be fodder unless acid rockets were reintroduced. and all of this for no cost being building said unit.
all the things you want to add are already in the game and dont serve to unbalance.
Not true, the two teams are just different.
While i'm no fan of medspaming, as said, the armory has that role, thats why many commanders build one when pushing into a new area.
Lets see how that works out when all features are in.
Again, try out the armory. and yes, i think the turrets need some work, but they already got better.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The armory does work but it doesn't work very well, marines aren't as mobile as aliens and the armory has a very limited area of effect, it is also harder to build than the crag because you need the marines to build it, it can't support an attack like a crag, which can be easily placed round a corner and heal masses of aliens with ease as they dart back and forth. You need a lot of armories to achieve that effect, and marines can't really fight while doing it, aliens on the other hand basically get an area of health regen and infinite ammo. I think you need a more mobile option for ammo and a much more available option for health, hence the medpack suggestion. The armory might function, but for that role there are much better solutions.
I don't see how an IP prevents relocation, you can recycle it surely? Although why you would want to escapes me, having a spawn can only make any strategy easier.
The teams may be different but the overall effect is that alien RTS mechanics are much easier, much more automated, much more akin to modern games, the marines lack a lot of automation that would normally be present in rts games of today.
<!--quoteo(post=1815127:date=Dec 11 2010, 06:51 PM:name=VeNeM)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VeNeM @ Dec 11 2010, 06:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1815127"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->a lot of this could be fixed if some elements of the much hated ns1 were brought back. if coms could drop the observatory like they could in ns one, then this problem would be solved, they could either beacon or research the squad upgrade. they could offset the power of the squad upgrade early on by making it more costly. ammo and medspam are fine. doesnt need to be removed/replaced because they have a cost to using them and they are only an option (you do know that a com can drop an armory and marines can use that too right?). I seriously dont see how you cant see how unbalanced a mobile ammo/regen station would be for ranged attackers, you could easily steamroll to a hive, healing and with full ammo the entire way. it would render lerks basically obsolete. fades would be fodder unless acid rockets were reintroduced. and all of this for no cost being building said unit.
all the things you want to add are already in the game and dont serve to unbalance.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Having to use a beacon to reinforce an area is kind of impractical, for one thing it teleports everyone to the frontline, which means you can't get ammo or guns or whatever to fight with, you need to be able to get equipped marines to the front, so you need something like the phase gate, which is what the transponder is supposed to do.
A mobile supply system is only as unbalanced as you make it, it could be slow, it could require deployment to function, it could heal quite slowly, it could require the player to stop shooting in order to use it, it could stop healing if you sustained damage recently, aliens can get counters to it if neccesary, it could be unable to drive over DI for example. You could cut marine res income as well to compensate for the lack of medspamming. There are few things which are inherently unbalanced.
The point is to to bring marine RTS up to scratch with the currently quite excellent alien RTS, as well as give marines functions which they desperately need in order to compete.
Let's not spend effort to balance the game when it will have to be rebalanced anyway once people can actually aim.
I don't see how an IP prevents relocation, you can recycle it surely? Although why you would want to escapes me, having a spawn can only make any strategy easier.
The teams may be different but the overall effect is that alien RTS mechanics are much easier, much more automated, much more akin to modern games, the marines lack a lot of automation that would normally be present in rts games of today.
Having to use a beacon to reinforce an area is kind of impractical, for one thing it teleports everyone to the frontline, which means you can't get ammo or guns or whatever to fight with, you need to be able to get equipped marines to the front, so you need something like the phase gate, which is what the transponder is supposed to do.
A mobile supply system is only as unbalanced as you make it, it could be slow, it could require deployment to function, it could heal quite slowly, it could require the player to stop shooting in order to use it, it could stop healing if you sustained damage recently, aliens can get counters to it if neccesary, it could be unable to drive over DI for example. You could cut marine res income as well to compensate for the lack of medspamming. There are few things which are inherently unbalanced.
The point is to to bring marine RTS up to scratch with the currently quite excellent alien RTS, as well as give marines functions which they desperately need in order to compete.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, they just changed that the marines are needed for building because of the huge outcry that marines do not have to build anymore. So it seems like the majority of players prefer the way it is now. I also think that it is balanced (that mechanic, not the overall game) and fun. And i like that the 2 teams play differently, that is the whole idea of NS
<!--quoteo(post=1815026:date=Dec 11 2010, 12:04 PM:name=_Thresh_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Thresh_ @ Dec 11 2010, 12:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1815026"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Can devs make people be hurt in real life if they DONT BUILDING THE ###### IP<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1815120:date=Dec 11 2010, 06:28 PM:name=Asraniel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Asraniel @ Dec 11 2010, 06:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1815120"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Not having an IP is also good because it gives the marines the choice to directly relocate.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not sure I'm understanding the talk regarding lack of IPs at game start. Currently the game starts with an IP, and the bug where after a game ends the next round would not have an IP was also fixed for patch 159. Are you guys still not getting IPs on game start?
--Cory
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No and I was confused about that as well, I know you guys futzed about with adding and removing it for a bit but I was under the impression the final decision was to keep it.
The fact that I haven't seen one at the start in several versions is more than a little confusing.
NS2HD has a recent video commenting about the need to immediately rush build an IP to have any hope of surviving the inital skulk rush.
it was at least the second game on the server (probably more).