Wanna discuss the power nodes?
kingmob
Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 3650Members, Constellation
Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 3650Members, Constellation
First of all let me open up with the fact that...
I love the power nodes.
I love the fact that as alien we trash the lights for an area we occupy.
The mist from crags looks way cooler in low lighting.
As a marine the atmosphere is intimidating but my flashlight is a solid piece of work.
If I join the marines and I look left and see the red backup lighting and right and see the same...I get a feeling of dread.
An awesome fun game mechanic.
I am of the opinion it is easier to break these as alien, than it is to repair them.
That' it in a nutshell, it becomes to easy a target for aliens, but only the MAC can repair it.
I can't resist it as alien.
How to solve?
a) The marines can just repair them.
Pros: Simple
Cons: The lights could possibly never go out, destroying beloved mechanic.
b) The marines can purchase an upgrade, but the upgrade disallows another upgrade.
Pros: Tradeoff not every marine can do it, but someone should be around...unless the aliens housed you...in which case the lights go out.
Cons: Difficult to communicate this connection to player.
The first one is way to simple.
The second one I think to complicated.
Discuss...and be civil.
I love the power nodes.
I love the fact that as alien we trash the lights for an area we occupy.
The mist from crags looks way cooler in low lighting.
As a marine the atmosphere is intimidating but my flashlight is a solid piece of work.
If I join the marines and I look left and see the red backup lighting and right and see the same...I get a feeling of dread.
An awesome fun game mechanic.
I am of the opinion it is easier to break these as alien, than it is to repair them.
That' it in a nutshell, it becomes to easy a target for aliens, but only the MAC can repair it.
I can't resist it as alien.
How to solve?
a) The marines can just repair them.
Pros: Simple
Cons: The lights could possibly never go out, destroying beloved mechanic.
b) The marines can purchase an upgrade, but the upgrade disallows another upgrade.
Pros: Tradeoff not every marine can do it, but someone should be around...unless the aliens housed you...in which case the lights go out.
Cons: Difficult to communicate this connection to player.
The first one is way to simple.
The second one I think to complicated.
Discuss...and be civil.
Comments
Maybe runes can repair the nodes but only a MAC can rebuild them?
that seems a little harsh. maybe cc and ips should always have power?
It seems to be the initial step for aliens to take an area, true, but that initial step effectively gives them the area (darkness, no functioning marine structures) long before they've actually even expanded into it (by destroying marine structures and establishing alien structures). Frustrating, maybe, but it seems like it's by design. But what is an issue is that it is certainly harder to repair power nodes than it is to destroy them, I think.
The biggest thing is that, marines having the power up is <b>not</b> exactly an <i>advantage</i> to them, and it is <b>not</b> a <i>disadvantage</i> to the aliens; while when it's down, it's a <i>disadvantage to marines</i> and an <i>advantage to aliens</i>. So it goes from 0/0 to -/+ for marines/aliens.
What if you had self-repairing power nodes, at a slow-medium rate, and MACs can greatly speed up the process? Marines will still not be able to assist repair. Now, the idea is that D.I. (a manifestation of the alien territory; in contrast to powered areas being manifestations of the marine territory) when it is implemented will obviously prevent repairing. The actual rates would necessarily need to considered for balancing.
So power nodes down, rather than be effectively alien territory, will instead represent contested territory; and maybe you could affect changes around that. E.g. marine structures with limited operations, less severe lack of lighting (emergency lighting) - when it's a 'contested' territory; and marine structures completely out of operation, and more severe lack of lighting (perhaps even true darkness), when it's alien territory (DI).
the MAC is an extension of the Comm (remember there can be 3 per team, thats as many as 6 players who need something more challenging than "follow your waypoint soldier." let the comm control doors and power nodes. Marines need to defend MACs. an upgraded MAC can outrun most anything, you just have to pay attention to your MACs so they don't die.
besides, if you allow marines to repair powernodes, then MACs are defunct and we aren't really making NS2, we're updating NS1, which isn't the goal. But if you want a way for solo players to win without a comm coordinating MACs, I suppose you could put in marine repair, but only with a welder, and said welder would have to be slower than a MAC repair and the welder would replace your pistol. I think 2 welders could be equivalent to 1 MAC. That way a team that goes out on its own without comm support (thru MAC) would still be vulnerable while they're welding.
all of that being said, this sounds like a good idea anyway assuming DI lives up to it's expectations. lights on = marine favored, pnode down and backup lights = contested, di = alien favored:
<!--quoteo(post=1819659:date=Dec 27 2010, 12:51 AM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Dec 27 2010, 12:51 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1819659"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So power nodes down, rather than be effectively alien territory, will instead represent contested territory; and maybe you could affect changes around that. E.g. marine structures with limited operations, less severe lack of lighting (emergency lighting) - when it's a 'contested' territory; and marine structures completely out of operation, and more severe lack of lighting (perhaps even true darkness), when it's alien territory (DI).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'd personally like to see more maps that have greater freedom, so it's not 'just go back or forward along two paths'. I think that's where the territory idea would truly shine.
I like that, i have posted myself a thread about the lighting system (the Pnode (i call them E-Node)). I totally agree with this concept and it would be an awesome indicator for new and non-teamplaying marines, if the following sector they want to enter is safe or already a spawn for every lurking little alien on the map xD
*Agree*
Allowing Marines to repair the nodes would make it too easy to reclaim the node, it may be quiet easy to take out the node but its a substantial risk to most of the aliens trying...especially a skulk, the hitbox on that power node is small and requires that a skulk position itself so it can only see the node to hit it... and with the all that racket and sparks flying its bloody hard to see when you are under attack.
I believe its the intention of the devs to only allow alien structures to be built on DI, and so when DI is implemented a power node down isnt a auto alien win for that region, then it would be unfair to the alien team if the marine structures retained some functionality even when the power node is down.
At the moment it seems harsh to the marines because DI isnt in the game, so whips and crags are built anywhere and everywhere but imagine how it will be like if the alien comm needs to wait for the DI to 'creep' up...or a helpfull gorge puke up some DI for the comm to place a structure ( so its either a uncontrollable DI or a fat slow vunerable target required to slap down crags and whips ).
I would also like to point out the emergency lighting doesnt really provide the aliens much benefit, its bloody hard to re aquire a marine target in that light after trying to bite ... imagine closing your eyes every time you tried to shoot at a target, thats what the bite is like :P
Except for hives.
I like what I'm hearing about contested territories with a downed node. So far in game I've really only seen an area as marine controlled or alien controlled when it came to power being on and off. This is a chance at deeper gameplay.
As for self healing power nodes...sounds too weird to me imo.
When the DI ( Dynamic Infestation ) is implemented the dynamics of the power nodes will make sense, as it is only one half of the idea is in.
When DI is active the aliens will NOT be able to drive a pack of drifters into areas and build where they like, they ... like the marines, will be limited to areas they control. Aliens power nodes will be the DI , and is subject to attack ( especially by fire ) and limited to areas NOT powered by power nodes.
If the Marines succeed in putting the power back on the DI will retreat.
Changing the mechanics now to suit the current issues will lead to a mess when the DI is in.
you don't know that. and no, that shouldn't happen. just because a hive has a power node repaired, doesn't mean the DI runs out of the hive. that's what the flamethrower is for.
power nodes shouldn't be capable of being repaired while covered in DI. DI should break power nodes like it breaks locked doors.
this leads me back to the previously stated 3 stage powergrid, on bright lights, contested backup lights, off no lights. off should only happen when the pnode is covered in DI.
Thats how I understood the DI vs Power node mechanic was intended...
Of course , it makes sense that dynamic infestation slows down or blocks power node repairs.
Not all mechanics need to be symmetrical , this is NS we're talking about. In fact , it would be bad if you could disable crags and whips just by burning some small green mound of infestation in a corner of the room.
Thats how I understood the DI vs Power node mechanic was intended...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
maybe it just stops expanding. it shouldn't retreat. lets theorycraft the gameplay.
game starts all power on (current state of game).
marines move out to an expansion and oh noes, the aliens are there.
marines fight and aliens win (due to skill), aliens drop a hive and the hive builds and a default amount of hive DI instantly drops on the hive radius.
power is still on cuz the aliens haven't chewed down the node yet, so the Alien comm can only build whips on the di.
aliens chew the powernode down to 0, backup lights come on, DI starts to creep out from the hive radius and expand.
marines rush in to take out the hive and repair power before DI gets to the node (cuz then they'll need flamethrowers and this is early game so they don't have them yet).
marines fail again cuz the comm didn't medpack spam and the macs got eaten, but they got the pnode to 60%.
unfortunately before their next push, the comm decides its too risky and they should try elsewhere.
DI takes over pnode and covers it (it can't be welded, u need a flamethrower now). pnode is now off and so are the lights. DI provides aliens with a little predator vision or nightvision cuz they're on DI and the power is off (not unfair, marines ALWAYS have a flashlight, and hey, maybe the MAC has a big area floodlight too that comes on in unpowered areas)
aliens are happy cuz they took the tech point, but wait! the tricky commander built a mobile power node and floated that in with his marines armed with lovely shotguns!
he drops a couple turrets (powered by mobile node) and the marines kill the hive (DI recedes to a small radius around current structures. the pnode is no longer covered by DI and the current room is contested (backup lights come on). the mac starts welding the pnode and the marines have put up a good fight.
^^this sounds fun and fair to me.
i think hives and rts and hydras and shifts (gorge dropped movement chambers) can be build without DI and will have their own little DI (non-expanding) around them. everything else needs DI to be built and DI only expands from hives (and maybe RTs) and only when power is in backup (contested) or off obviously.
the counter to DI is a mobile power node (so you can power structures as you try to kill the hive) and flamethrowers to burn back the DI and MACs to rebuild the power.
maybe the alien commander can't drop the hive unless the pnode is at 0% and the area is contested. but maybe not.
thoughts?
There should be a low tier option , like say a welder than can burn slowly through the DI on the node, and allowing a MAC to repair it ... or something like that. ( should also be grenades like in NS 1 , 1 per marine per respawn I believe... this would allow them to break a Alien blockade if the Aliens were slow to respond. )
Default state: power is up - not an advantage to marines nor a disadvantage to aliens - it's just the status quo.
A group of aliens, <b>any aliens</b>, can come in and chomp on a power node, and the marine power is down, and that sector has effectively become alien territory, even if no structures have yet been built.
Because: the benefit to the aliens is immediate, and the loss to the marines is immediate.
On the other hand, to fix this situation, the marines must send in a fragile, costly, commander-controlled unit.
Fragile, so half-doomed to failure; costly, when alien efforts are free; commander-controlled, thus taking the commander's attention.
This area may not even have any real significance to the alien team (i.e. they will not expand there soon), except that it has some significance to the marine team. The idea with self-repairing power nodes (and let's say power doesn't come back on 'til >50%) is that those areas will take care of themselves. Maybe you'd balance it like, however long it takes one skulk alone to chomp down a power node from 100% to 0%, is about as long (or maybe half as long) as however long the power takes to come back on by itself.
On the other hand, I think that with the idea of a contested territory (emergency lighting - emergency power: limited marine operations i.e. CC, IP, maybe half-resource rate) the above issue won't be so large, as it is necessary for aliens to actually expand into that territory (via killing structures, and DI), in order to remove all marine benefits in the area (whereas right now they can remove it in seconds).
Also, my understanding (or hope; or let's take it as a suggestion) of DI was that it would <i>expand from alien structures</i>, <b>rather than</b> DI being <i>a requirement to place alien structures</i>. The exact opposite. I mean, how annoying would it have to be to wait for creep in order to place a res node or a hive?
However, <i>some</i> important structures should only be able to be placed on DI, though; and/or some structures only fully operate on DI (so you could still spam whips and crags for defense and such, but for it to have the chamber effects it'll need to be on DI). Essentially it ties into that concept of 'contested territory' again.
The floor and walls of alien start should begin covered in DI.