Flamethrower
Nik
Join Date: 2005-03-22 Member: 46123Members
Join Date: 2005-03-22 Member: 46123Members
A quick point about the flamethrower. Obviously the flamethrower may not be as effective once the Onos and alien upgrades are added, however as it stands right now, the flamethrower is the ultimate marine weapon in the game. I think that the flamethrower should be strong against some targets (like skulks and lerks), but weak against others (maybe certain buildings and Onos). This will add a certain dynamic to the Marine weaponry where they will need the squads to carry different weapons instead of all go for flamethrowers.
Comments
Thought the best alien counter to flame thrower is lerk in "open area" and skulk surprise attack when in confined one.
Fade & Onos can do the job on front close combat assault.
Also, a decent fade > an average team of tier 1 marines. They will win singlehandedly, at least in the current build. Aliens harass until they get fades, then it's pretty much a slow loss for the marine team. Or else, aliens fail to keep the marines down who reach tier 2 (with flamethrowers!), and then it's a slow loss for the alien team. That's pretty much how almost every game happens in the current build (that I've seen).
Marines go into base area clear it of enemies then bring in the flame throwers to kill off the buildings nice and quick.
You should let it temporarily be able to light the surfaces on fire, and allow that if a marine is killed he blows up, into small little pieces.
So in a other words. Flamethrowers are real good vs buldings, crap vs other players.
Flame throwers can ignite almost anything including there own people, but they also blow up if killed, or have a 1/3 chance of dying in that way.
Also how about letting them have the ability to burn infestation when it's introduced, and any gases the aliens leave behind can be ignited and cause a small explosion slightly bigger than the area the gases are covering?
Agreed. This has been my experience as well.
Currently marines are too weak without flamethrowers, and too strong with them. The outcome of every single game I've played has depended on whether or not flamethrowers are researched. The constant stream of AOE, combined with the damage over time, combined with the semi-blindness is just too good right now.
That being said, I don't want the flamethrower to be removed completely. The flames look really cool, especially with the dynamic lighting.
Here are some ideas to help with balancing:
-Make flamethrowers highly effective against 'light' targets (i.e. skulks, lerks, gorges, hydras, small crags/whips) and ineffective against 'heavy' targets (i.e. fades, onos, hives, mature crags/whips). By contrast, maybe the upcoming minigun can be better against 'heavy' targets and not so good against 'light' targets. This way the marines are encouraged to bring a variety of weapons, each weapon has a use, and neither weapon becomes the 'end-all'.
-Give lerks/gorges some kind of anti-flame gas/bile-bomb. The gas might extinguish flames, or prevent igniting, or reduce damage, or reduce range/aoe etc. Flamethrowers might still be very powerful, but now countered with coordinated teamwork.
Fade & Onos can do the job on front close combat assault
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I see a lot of good ideas coming in here, I was thinking to something similar that Holepuncher has said:
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->-Make flamethrowers highly effective against 'light' targets (i.e. skulks, lerks, gorges, hydras, small crags/whips) and ineffective against 'heavy' targets (i.e. fades, onos, hives, mature crags/whips). By contrast, maybe the upcoming minigun can be better against 'heavy' targets and not so good against 'light' targets. This way the marines are encouraged to bring a variety of weapons, each weapon has a use, and neither weapon becomes the 'end-all'.
-Give lerks/gorges some kind of anti-flame gas/bile-bomb. The gas might extinguish flames, or prevent igniting, or reduce damage, or reduce range/aoe etc. Flamethrowers might still be very powerful, but now countered with coordinated teamwork.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Also Tha's suggestion of making the flamethrower do less direct damage and more damage over time will mean that skulks and lerks can still stand a good chance against a flamethrower - they can kill their target, but will die right after. So a flamethrower will be good in conjunction with direct damage weapons.
There was something else I wanted to say, but I don't remember.
There was something else I wanted to say, but I don't remember.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The Aliens already use Hit n Run tactics, what you're proposing basically makes the Flamethrower useless.
I know there some threads but i want ask something to the Unknown worlds E. Team, maybe cory can answer, he is a lot more activ here(?).
I play ns1 a lot and i very liked it, also like to play on the alien team, but in natural selection 2 i hate the alien team so much, its not funny...if the marines got the flamethrower and thats just one little weapon.
Because if somebody come with a flamethrower you chances to die is like 99%...100% if more then 1 marine has a flamethrower
I mean if you burn, you can't do anything except running like a chicken, there wasn't a flamethrower in ns1 which was very nice.
You can run away from grenades but you can't do a sh.. if you are on fire.
I hate the flamethrower so much and a lot of people too (if they play aliens)
There is no way to realy fix the flamethrower, because you can't kill the flames as alien.
For example, if you playing team fortress 2, and if you are on fire, you can extinguish the flames by:
1. wait for a medic (gorge...but most times its to late and the map is to big to reach the gorge before you die)
2. run to your ressuply (hive...but most times its to late because the hive is to far away or the hive don't heal you fast enough)
3. get saved by another pyro with compressed air (no way...)
4. jump into water (water in ns2? guess not...)
5. take a med-kit (crag...but most times its to late because its even to slow to heal you)
6. get a ubercharge (never ever in ns2...)
7. some other ways (how?)
<b>I know they haven't fixed the flamethrower, but it WILL be in NS2 and it WILL set you on fire you can't do anything to extinguish the flames</b>.
Ideas to make it better:
1. skin update = give the aliens a skin update, which gives the aliens the ability to protect against "set on fire" but allow the damage they take on flame hit
2. lerk = for example if the lerk fly alot by pressing space, the flames go away?
3. lerk ability spit/blow = if the lerk spit/blow against the flames, it will set the marine on fire
4. the gorge = why not let him spew water, if he do that, his healthbar goes down but he can heal himself
5-xx i don't know something which can protect the aliens against flames...
I know with the flamethrower the marines kill the dynamic infestation.
1. (Bug) It fires through walls.
2. It does stacking damage-over-time with the max stack count being too high, resulting in excessive residual damage.
3. The particle effect is too dense. When the flame lines up between the weapon and the view point of the victim (my hypothesis), the flame is still blinding.
4. The burning effect still covers too much of the screen.
I also find the duration of the burn to be too long. Perhaps it can be reduced instead of the damage-per-second of the burn.
I remember Flayra saying that there would be a volumetric flamethrower in NS2. I wonder if that will make it into the game. :P
1. (Bug) It fires through walls.
2. It does stacking damage-over-time with the max stack count being too high, resulting in excessive residual damage.
3. The particle effect is too dense. When the flame lines up between the weapon and the view point of the victim (my hypothesis), the flame is still blinding.
4. The burning effect still covers too much of the screen.
I also find the duration of the burn to be too long. Perhaps it can be reduced instead of the damage-per-second of the burn.
I remember Flayra saying that there would be a volumetric flamethrower in NS2. I wonder if that will make it into the game. :P<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1. sure
2. sure too
3. of course
4. same as 1,2 and 3 ^^
but if all of these is still fixed, you still can not take the fire off, there is NO way to extinguish the fire.
the only thing you can do is waiting for health...(hive or gorge)
its totaly overpowered in my mind if you think about it, NOTHING in mothernature can fight against fire, everything will die, in my mind the flamethrower doesn't have to appear in ns2.
Why not killing dynamic infestation with big welder/blowtorch? just a secondary mode of it...
Several suggestions prior made have been wonderful. Make it so the flamethrower is only useful on some aliens. If it's the weapon to have for every alien, what is the point of the other weapons? Why are they even in game when Onos are not? UW needs to up the damage on the pulse rifle and lower the damage on the flamethrower. Just IMHO, of course.
Love the game, just find it frustrating to play the game after the marines get the flamethrower. It's not as bad as nade spam (WHERE IS THE FRIENDLY FIRE?!) or turret spam.
1. it goes through walls
2. it STILL blinds you
3. dot (damage over time) is way too strong. if you get hit just little bit, and get away you still die moments later.
4. damage over time cannot be even out healed even by the hive if you run back to it.
this weapon seriously needs to be fixed. Lerks/skulks/gorges fall like flies, and even you run away your health drops insanely fast.
currently once marines get flame throwers, aliens have NO defense to counter this weapon at all.
Any kid can just wield this weapon spamming it in any direction, destroy the whole room and every alien in it.
But.
# Slow aim when firing.
# Slow movement speed when firing.
# Make it hurt the player when fired too close.
# Friendly fire.
# Reduce sight (heat shader) a little.
# Reduce hearing (sound of flames).
# Increase cost.
Sorted.
Now it is VERY effective for clearing structures and assault from the front, but crap against rear attack and requires at least 2 marines to cover you whilst you clear a hive out.
So you have to aim it at stuff before firing, rather than aiming while firing.
Same should go for sentries.
nerf aliens, what do aliens have now that is overpowering? lerks? skulks? fade? if anything aliens right NOW have NO defense what-so-ever against flamethrower. And I really mean, they have NOTHING to counter this weapon. I really have to question, if you ever played games where marines had flamethrowers, and how did you win those games? If you did, it would be one lucky win.
I don't think you fully understand how overpowering this weapon is. In fact, this weapon pretty much ruins ns2 for me right now. I would rather marines had old weapons where it takes sort of skill to aim, not any kid can wield the weapon, and be amazing. Right now any kid can spam flamethrower at any direction, destroy whole room, skulks and lerks without even aiming or trying. So yeah, this weapon is beyond bullcrap.
1. it goes through walls
2. it STILL blinds you
3. dot (damage over time) is way too strong. if you get hit just little bit, and get away you still die moments later.
4. damage over time cannot be even out healed even by the hive if you run back to it.
many people here also listed the overpowering issues with this weapon, (which i agree with) and many who I played with in-game who roll aliens would agree. But when you play marines, people wouldn't care to notice.
damage over time from this weapon must be nerfed to the ground, hive, crags and gorges can't even outheal that crap.
I don't think you fully understand how overpowering this weapon is. In fact, this weapon pretty much ruins ns2 for me right now. I would rather marines had old weapons where it takes sort of skill to aim, not any kid can wield the weapon, and be amazing. Right now any kid can spam flamethrower at any direction, destroy whole room, skulks and lerks without even aiming or trying. So yeah, this weapon is beyond bullcrap.
1. it goes through walls
2. it STILL blinds you
3. dot (damage over time) is way too strong. if you get hit just little bit, and get away you still die moments later.
4. damage over time cannot be even out healed even by the hive if you run back to it.
many people here also listed the overpowering issues with this weapon, (which i agree with) and many who I played with in-game who roll aliens would agree. But when you play marines, people wouldn't care to notice.
damage over time from this weapon must be nerfed to the ground, hive, crags and gorges can't even outheal that crap.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You completely missed his point. If you're going to nerf the flamethrower (a good idea), then you also need to nerf early alien stuff (skulk, gorge, hydra-spam) or else aliens will always win. I haven't yet had a match where the marines have won without the flamethrower.
This is the problem of simple 'damage' based balance. Marine weapon is too overpowered, nerf it.. aliens are too overpowered, nerf it. Games end up lasting (as they do at the moment) 45 minutes +.
as for longer games, they aren't long at all. once marines get flame throwers, the game is over now. which is the whole point i'm trying to make.
any kid can pick up flamethrower, destroy whole room, kill every skulk/lerk and fade it in AND without even trying to aim.
Now, picture this with 3-4 marines with same weapon.
gorge can't out heal this, hive can't out heal this and crags can't out heal this.
So what if you got hit once and ran away, damage over time drags your health down like rock in the water.
its no skilled weapon for people who like combat maps.
flamethrowers ruining ns2 right now, go play some maps once marines get this - every alien leaves the game.
Those who don't leave haven't fought against it yet, but after few rounds I usually see crazy team chat, and I can't blame them, I end up leaving as well.
But.
# Slow aim when firing.
# Slow movement speed when firing.
# Make it hurt the player when fired too close.
# Friendly fire.
# Reduce sight (heat shader) a little.
# Reduce hearing (sound of flames).
# Increase cost.
Sorted.
Now it is VERY effective for clearing structures and assault from the front, but crap against rear attack and requires at least 2 marines to cover you whilst you clear a hive out.
So you have to aim it at stuff before firing, rather than aiming while firing.
Same should go for sentries.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->This ^^
The fact that <b>aliens will always win</b> if marines don't get flamethrowers is <u>not</u> OP to you?
The fact that <b>a no-upgrade Skulk</b> can kill a <b>no-upgrade Marine</b> in <b>two bites</b> due to the broken armour system - or if you like numbers, 0.45~0.9 seconds?
The fact that a Gorge with enough plasma can <b>hydra-bomb</b> a Marine base with about <b>10 hydras</b> in the space of like <b>15 seconds</b>?
The fact that the Lerk has <b>MUCH better ranged weapons</b> (spore, spike) than <b>Marines who are a ranged team</b>?
The fact that one <i>experienced</i> Fade, <b>alone</b>, can <b>destroy</b> a Marine base and annihilate <b>their entire team</b>, with barely any risk to himself due to his high health and armour and the marines' pathetically ineffective bullet-based weapons?
I'm pretty sure if you had given it <b>any</b> thought at all you would have noticed these things as well.
I also like how you completely misinterpreted my post, only to be corrected by ScardyBob, then tried to cling to your 'dignity' or something. Admitting you were wrong is the first step to improving yourself as a person.
The fact that <b>a no-upgrade Skulk</b> can kill a <b>no-upgrade Marine</b> in <b>two bites</b> due to the broken armour system - or if you like numbers, 0.45~0.9 seconds?
The fact that a Gorge with enough plasma can <b>hydra-bomb</b> a Marine base with about <b>10 hydras</b> in the space of like <b>15 seconds</b>?
The fact that the Lerk has <b>MUCH better ranged weapons</b> (spore, spike) than <b>Marines who are a ranged team</b>?
The fact that one <i>experienced</i> Fade, <b>alone</b>, can <b>destroy</b> a Marine base and annihilate <b>their entire team</b>, with barely any risk to himself due to his high health and armour and the marines' pathetically ineffective bullet-based weapons?
I'm pretty sure if you had given it <b>any</b> thought at all you would have noticed these things as well.
I also like how you completely misinterpreted my post, only to be corrected by ScardyBob, then tried to cling to your 'dignity' or something. Admitting you were wrong is the first step to improving yourself as a person.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
everything you listed here can be explained by two major issues.
1.stability problems, huge amounts of lag/freezing
2.hit detection, shots aren't being registered correctly
once these problems are gone, the above would make more sense.
And just to reply to your first "issue" only reason it seems marines need flamethrowers to win its because it requires NO aiming, NO trying and No skill what so ever.
anyone can spam it at direction and win.
that is why hit detection or stability doesn't matter with flamethrower, because of how EASY it is to spam it without aiming or trying.
Once hit detection/stability is fixed, more experienced marines will pick those skulks/lerks and fades more apart.
How can <b>any</b> of those things be explained by performance/latency except very indirectly?
Skulks killing marines in two hits instead of three? Gorges able to hydra-bomb? Lerk having a better ranged weapon? Fades being so powerful that marines can't scratch them without flamethrowers, yet Fades can destroy them in seconds?
The only way that performance/latency comes into play, is if the system is improved, marines will be able to hit aliens better so they'll be more effective, but then <b>that's true for the aliens as well</b>.
Yes, the marines may get more of the initial benefit (because they are <b>currently</b> getting the short end of the stick), but the underlying problems remain and you <b>can't</b> just gloss over that.
Besides, once the other ranged weapons become more effective, the flamethrower won't be used as much <i>anyway</i> - because it will no longer be <b><u>the only option</u> for victory</b>, which is what it is now.
By all means, nerf the flamethrower. Please. Nerf the aliens as well.
1. (Bug) It fires through walls.
2. It does stacking damage-over-time with the max stack count being too high, resulting in excessive residual damage.
3. The particle effect is too dense. When the flame lines up between the weapon and the view point of the victim (my hypothesis), the flame is still blinding.
4. The burning effect still covers too much of the screen.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
All four of your points are spot on, and are the same things that have been bothering me during the beta so far. UWE please listen to this. In build 161 these issues are still a problem and need to be addressed.
Examples of exploits/unbalanced gameplay regarding twiliteblue's issues with the flamethrower.
1. Marines purposefully firing through the wall on rock down on the hive southeast of alien start
2. As a skulk, lerk and fade I've killed flame-thrower wielding marines, run back to the hive surrounded by crags and the stacked DoT out dps' the HoT of the crags and hive. This is not fun at all.
3 & 4. It's still ridiculous in 161, better than in 160 but honestly you guys (UWE) still need to tone the graphic down and leave a wider viewport.
Playing with flame throwers isn't very fun either its mind-numbingly boring, all you have to do is m1 spam and jump around.
How can <b>any</b> of those things be explained by performance/latency except very indirectly?
Skulks killing marines in two hits instead of three? Gorges able to hydra-bomb? Lerk having a better ranged weapon? Fades being so powerful that marines can't scratch them without flamethrowers, yet Fades can destroy them in seconds?
The only way that performance/latency comes into play, is if the system is improved, marines will be able to hit aliens better so they'll be more effective, but then <b>that's true for the aliens as well</b>.
Yes, the marines may get more of the initial benefit (because they are <b>currently</b> getting the short end of the stick), but the underlying problems remain and you <b>can't</b> just gloss over that.
Besides, once the other ranged weapons become more effective, the flamethrower won't be used as much <i>anyway</i> - because it will no longer be <b><u>the only option</u> for victory</b>, which is what it is now.
By all means, nerf the flamethrower. Please. Nerf the aliens as well.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This
The problem with the 'less lag will solve the imbalance' argument is that it will improve both marine and alien hit detection equally. Now skulks that may have needed 6 bite attempts for the kill can now do it in 2. It also doesn't solve the IP camping problem, where a skulk/fade can kill a marine before the spawning animation finishes.
But.
# Friendly fire.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
FF is totaly fail...because new people or just idiots will hurt their mates for fun...no way.
Its enough your mates can block you (aliens too...like in ns1)
<!--quoteo(post=1823060:date=Jan 10 2011, 05:57 AM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Jan 10 2011, 05:57 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1823060"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The fact that <b>aliens will always win</b> if marines don't get flamethrowers is <u>not</u> OP to you?
The fact that <b>a no-upgrade Skulk</b> can kill a <b>no-upgrade Marine</b> in <b>two bites</b> due to the broken armour system - or if you like numbers, 0.45~0.9 seconds?
The fact that a Gorge with enough plasma can <b>hydra-bomb</b> a Marine base with about <b>10 hydras</b> in the space of like <b>15 seconds</b>?
The fact that the Lerk has <b>MUCH better ranged weapons</b> (spore, spike) than <b>Marines who are a ranged team</b>?
The fact that one <i>experienced</i> Fade, <b>alone</b>, can <b>destroy</b> a Marine base and annihilate <b>their entire team</b>, with barely any risk to himself due to his high health and armour and the marines' pathetically ineffective bullet-based weapons?
I'm pretty sure if you had given it <b>any</b> thought at all you would have noticed these things as well.
I also like how you completely misinterpreted my post, only to be corrected by ScardyBob, then tried to cling to your 'dignity' or something. Admitting you were wrong is the first step to improving yourself as a person.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1. no not realy always, the grenade launcher is very good, i kill a lot of aliens incl. fades with grenades, same as with Flamethrower.
Okay they can blink away, but most times i hit and kill them with 2 grenades and fire him with the rifle.
The Shotgun takes a fade down in like 3 hits, shotguns did a lot of damage to a fade.
And its very hard as aliens to go in marine base if they got a lot of sentrys guarding the base.
At the others, its a beta, not all is included ;)
<!--c1--><div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><!--ec1-->kSkulkHealth = 70 kSkulkArmor = 10 kSkulkPointValue = 5
kGorgeHealth = 150 kGorgeArmor = 50 kGorgePointValue = 7
kLerkHealth = 125 kLerkArmor = 30 kLerkPointValue = 15
kFadeHealth = 300 kFadeArmor = 100 kFadePointValue = 20
kOnosHealth = 700 kOnosArmor = 600 kOnosPointValue = 30
kEggHealth = 200 kEggArmor = 0 kEggPointValue = 2<!--c2--></div><!--ec2-->
kShotgunMaxDamage = 20
kShotgunMinDamage = 14
+
kShotgunBulletsPerShot = 10
= 10x20(10x14) = 200(140) Damage on one direct hit! It has 8 Clips
kGrenadeLauncherDamage = 150 (so it need 2 grenades and the fade is dead)
Skulk did kBiteDamage = 75, no wonder he kill a marine with 2 bites, i like that, because marines have Shotguns, Flamethrower, Grenade Launcher...the balance is ok.