NS2 Gameplay Stutter

1235

Comments

  • Kouji_SanKouji_San Sr. Hινε Uρкεερεг - EUPT Deputy The Netherlands Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
    <!--quoteo(post=1818829:date=Dec 23 2010, 10:22 PM:name=daeli)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (daeli @ Dec 23 2010, 10:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1818829"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Could anybody of the devs actually respond to this thread if they are working on it?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Would be nice, the thread has enough info in it right now...
  • brybobrybo Join Date: 2010-12-23 Member: 75893Members
    edited December 2010
    <!--quoteo(post=1818818:date=Dec 23 2010, 04:57 PM:name=commofdoom)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (commofdoom @ Dec 23 2010, 04:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1818818"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i cannot believe how ignorant you all are. even the beta trailers show the view lag/stutter. and if you can't notice i'll trade you a cardboard box for your monitor.

    <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VLFxRrgUzqM" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VLFxRrgUzqM</a>
    every time this guy turns his mouse it stutters, lags, skips, changes speeds or some other thing.


    i mean i know all of you are seeing it, both in that video and on your computer ingame. can you just stop fanboying and actually give them some good beta feedback? other than "great job guys keep it up!"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->


    I don't think I have ever seen a player made video where they did not experience the stutter. Anyone have a link to someone that has a smooth as silk game play experience? The only one that I have seen is the trailers on the main site and that doesn't count in my mind.
  • FellbladeFellblade Join Date: 2003-02-18 Member: 13699Members, Constellation
    Just posting to say that I have exactly the same issue with the following specs:
    <ul><li>Q6600 @ 2.8Ghz</li><li>ATI 4870 512Mb</li><li>4Gb RAM</li></ul>
  • _Thresh__Thresh_ Join Date: 2008-01-11 Member: 63385Members
    Couldnt see this on getsatisifcation, has it been added?

    Also / bump / for an admin to confirm receipt of issue. First 2 pages have the demos.
  • pacopaco Join Date: 2003-08-14 Member: 19708Members, Constellation
    Just replying to post I have very glitchy play as well. Although, I thought it was just my comp:

    Intel core 2 duo E8400
    4 gigs ddr3
    8800gt
    win7 64
  • WheeeeWheeee Join Date: 2003-02-18 Member: 13713Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    <!--quoteo(post=1818965:date=Dec 24 2010, 02:07 AM:name=_Thresh_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Thresh_ @ Dec 24 2010, 02:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1818965"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Couldnt see this on getsatisifcation, has it been added?

    Also / bump / for an admin to confirm receipt of issue. First 2 pages have the demos.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    i think they're aware of the problem, since "Profile and optimize OnProcessMove()" is on the progress tracker.
  • AsranielAsraniel Join Date: 2002-06-03 Member: 724Members, Playtest Lead, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Retired Community Developer
    there are currently many useless threads, but this one is not. so i have to save it from going to the second page.

    By the way, i can support what has been said about the garbage collection, i played around with the profile command myself. Great tool by the way :) one example where you can see what amazing work uwe is doing.
  • GoodNoodleGoodNoodle Join Date: 2010-12-25 Member: 75948Members
    Have the same problem with these specs:

    Q9550 stock
    GTX 280 stock
    4GB Ram 1333 mhz
  • StreptoStrepto Join Date: 2005-01-07 Member: 33571Members
    Is there a GetSatisfaction topic for this or is it lodged under some other title somewhere?

    Would like to see some feedback and recognition on this issue from UWE.
  • AsranielAsraniel Join Date: 2002-06-03 Member: 724Members, Playtest Lead, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Retired Community Developer
    don't worry, the topic came up just about when they started the holidays, so they will see it, or have seen it and will respond when they are back.

    we just need to make sure it stays on the first page :)
  • Squeal_Like_A_PigSqueal_Like_A_Pig Janitor Join Date: 2002-01-25 Member: 66Members, Super Administrators, NS1 Playtester, NS2 Developer, Reinforced - Supporter, WC 2013 - Silver, Subnautica Developer
    <!--quoteo(post=1818829:date=Dec 23 2010, 10:22 PM:name=daeli)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (daeli @ Dec 23 2010, 10:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1818829"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Could anybody of the devs actually respond to this thread if they are working on it?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Sorry, but we've already responded to many of these concerns, and can only continue to say the same thing over and over. We are aware of the low frame rates and stuttering issues, and are continuously working on optimizations and improvements to the game which will increase framerate for the server and client, and hopefully get rid of the stuttering. Unfortunately there is a lot going on in the game, so it is not like there is just one issue that Max can find and fix to solve all the problems. There's a long list of things that he is working on, which will all lead to performance improvements, some small, some hopefully big.

    --Cory
  • IronHorseIronHorse Developer, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributor Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
    <!--quoteo(post=1819894:date=Dec 28 2010, 11:42 AM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Dec 28 2010, 11:42 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1819894"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There's a long list of things that he is working on, which will all lead to performance improvements, some small, some hopefully big.

    --Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->


    thanks Cory for responding (we believed this stuttering issue to be separate from FPS related issues hence the users attempting to diagnose it). Hope some of the info gathered in these pages are helpful in some way and of course job well done so far! I follow this development closely and i know i speak for many others when i say we appreciate your patience with the varied nature of people's feedback - it can't be easy to have impatient nit picking crowds that are your loyal fans. :)

    see ya on the next patch
  • MOOtantMOOtant Join Date: 2010-06-25 Member: 72158Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1819894:date=Dec 28 2010, 09:42 PM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Dec 28 2010, 09:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1819894"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sorry, but we've already responded to many of these concerns, and can only continue to say the same thing over and over. We are aware of the low frame rates and stuttering issues, and are continuously working on optimizations and improvements to the game which will increase framerate for the server and client, and hopefully get rid of the stuttering. Unfortunately there is a lot going on in the game, so it is not like there is just one issue that Max can find and fix to solve all the problems. There's a long list of things that he is working on, which will all lead to performance improvements, some small, some hopefully big.

    --Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Your last sentence makes me wonder whether you're optimizing based on profiler data or just on your gut feeling.
  • james-lee.warjames-lee.war Join Date: 2010-12-31 Member: 76058Members, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Gold
    Well dont know if this will help but I stutter alot and when it sutters I noticed my HDD is being heavily accessed. I have:

    Athlon x4
    4 gb of 800 mhz ram
    8800 gts

    When my hdd is not being accessed (such as long corridors) the fps and gameplay is fine. Like I said I only get a stutter issue when its accessing my HDD (assuming its loading textures and what not). Any chance of a heapsize option like HL2 engine so I can allocate 3 gb of memory to the game (unless the devs have already set the game to use amax size dependant on the users configuration).
  • DarksterDarkster Join Date: 2010-02-17 Member: 70612Members, Reinforced - Gold
    <!--quoteo(post=1820085:date=Dec 29 2010, 09:17 PM:name=MOOtant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MOOtant @ Dec 29 2010, 09:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1820085"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Your last sentence makes me wonder whether you're optimizing based on profiler data or just on your gut feeling.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    I think he means they're going to fix the major bugs (server crashes and hydra lag, for example) before attempting to optimize the engine any further.

    At least that's what I've gathered from his post.
  • IronHorseIronHorse Developer, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributor Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
    new to this topic:
    a no brainer... but..
    things you might want to try which severely helped my stuttering.
    if you own a i7 920 it defaults in BIOS to "SpeedStep = Enabled" you must disable this.
    i had moved and forgot this step. i started running CPU-z and watching core usage while playing only to discover that my core speed was just too slow and wavering.
    changing this setting is a no brainer for gaming as the setting is meant for saving energy. speed is stable now and so is the stuttering.
  • AdamaAdama Join Date: 2010-12-21 Member: 75826Members
    edited January 2011
    Hi Guys,

    I have performed testing on this issue and have come up with a way that reduces this lag (at least works for me).

    The following instructs windows to only run NS2 with one core:

    Create shortcut for NS2
    To do this browse to the following directory (default Steam installation)
    C:\Program Files\Steam\steamapps\common\natural selection 2
    Right click on "NS2.exe"
    Send to -> Desktop

    Right click on newly generated shortcut
    Click "Properties"
    Look at the "Target" box
    Copy the following and add it to the "Target Box"
    C:\Windows\System32\cmd.exe /C start /normal /affinity 1 NS2.exe

    Click "Apply"
    Click "Ok"

    Double click shortcut - this should open NS2. (providing Steam has already started)

    Now you can alt-tab and do this manually in task manager, however on my machines I received sound glitches, hence the shortcut option.

    Can some people give it a try and see if you receive any improvement?

    Thanks,
  • AdamaAdama Join Date: 2010-12-21 Member: 75826Members
    So I've had a few players test this on the NG18 UK Test Server and the results are encouraging.

    Please note:

    Although this reduces the 'stutter'- FPS does appear to drop.

    As pointed out to me by 'pewpewpew' - NS2 can use 2 cores - Since NS2 currently looks to be heavily CPU Dependant (due to not much optimization as it's beta) - FPS drops..


    So please post with results and then I guess it's a call between lower FPS or an annoying stutter. For me I prefer lower FPS as the stutter is very annoying. Saying that though, I would imagine players with a better CPU may not see a drastic difference in FPS.

    I'm sure there's a better solution so i'll keep looking when time allows :)

    Feedback please.. :)
  • ZekZek Join Date: 2002-11-10 Member: 7962Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
    I made a getsatisfaction ticket for this issue specifically, please post there with your full DXDiag output guys(use pastebin): <a href="http://getsatisfaction.com/unknownworlds/topics/gameplay_stuttering_independent_of_fps" target="_blank">http://getsatisfaction.com/unknownworlds/t...ependent_of_fps</a>

    This is definitely not a problem that everyone has. People would be making a much bigger stink about it if it were. It's not in any way confusable with low FPS, it's very severe game-breaking stuttering that is sometimes inconsistent, sometimes constant, is not reflected in the FPS counter and doesn't really correlate to any particular action happening on the screen. It seems like the game is rendering frames normally but they're just not being drawn because it's hiccuping on something.

    For me it's gotten worse in 160 I think - it's worst in multiplayer but it seems to make little difference how many players there are.
  • elmo33elmo33 Join Date: 2009-08-07 Member: 68377Members
    Always had this problem, the game makes noticeable stutter every couple of second (+ more sometimes). I even created an amazing map that consisted of 2 triangles to render aka floor, and I get it in that map too.
  • AdamaAdama Join Date: 2010-12-21 Member: 75826Members
    edited January 2011
    <!--quoteo(post=1820766:date=Jan 1 2011, 10:08 PM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Jan 1 2011, 10:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1820766"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I made a getsatisfaction ticket for this issue specifically, please post there with your full DXDiag output guys(use pastebin): <a href="http://getsatisfaction.com/unknownworlds/topics/gameplay_stuttering_independent_of_fps" target="_blank">http://getsatisfaction.com/unknownworlds/t...ependent_of_fps</a>

    This is definitely not a problem that everyone has. People would be making a much bigger stink about it if it were. It's not in any way confusable with low FPS, it's very severe game-breaking stuttering that is sometimes inconsistent, sometimes constant, is not reflected in the FPS counter and doesn't really correlate to any particular action happening on the screen. It seems like the game is rendering frames normally but they're just not being drawn because it's hiccuping on something.

    For me it's gotten worse in 160 I think - it's worst in multiplayer but it seems to make little difference how many players there are.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Appreciate that it needs to be posted on getsatisfaction.com

    I know you cannot confuse it with framerate. However, reducing the amount of cores available to NS2 can affect framerate hence why I mentioned it.

    Do you have the problem? If so, have you tried what I posted?

    <!--quoteo(post=1820771:date=Jan 1 2011, 10:35 PM:name=elmo33)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elmo33 @ Jan 1 2011, 10:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1820771"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Always had this problem, the game makes noticeable stutter every couple of second (+ more sometimes). I even created an amazing map that consisted of 2 triangles to render aka floor, and I get it in that map too.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Have you tried what I posted?
  • ZekZek Join Date: 2002-11-10 Member: 7962Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
    I tried it just now - doing that tanks my FPS(especially when joining an online server instead of creating one for some reason), but there's definitely still visible stuttering in addition to that.
  • SgtBarlowSgtBarlow Level Designer Join Date: 2003-11-13 Member: 22749Members, NS2 Developer
    Forcing the game client to run on one core for most users with budget multi core CPUS like the q6600 will slow the game down, It is multithreaded but the spead behaviour we know is acting up, its being worked on, dropping the game from core0 helps a weee tiny smidge when most of the ativity is moved to the less busy core1 then what overspill can go over will plop over to cores2 & 3

    It shaves 20fps off for me running it on one core but if you have like a dual core 3.4ghz 1333 cpu then maybe moving ns2.exe away from core0 to core1 + 2&3 on a quad <u>may</u> help a tad.
  • AdamaAdama Join Date: 2010-12-21 Member: 75826Members
    The point of doing this is not to try and increase FPS it's to eliminate the annoying stutter that happens every 2 seconds which makes the game very frustrating to play.

    Regardless if it's not helping your stutter then don't do it, but I can certainly see a visible improvement on my Q6600.
  • Soylent_greenSoylent_green Join Date: 2002-12-20 Member: 11220Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited January 2011
    <!--quoteo(post=1820801:date=Jan 1 2011, 08:02 PM:name=SgtBarlow)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SgtBarlow @ Jan 1 2011, 08:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1820801"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Forcing the game client to run on one core for most users with budget multi core CPUS like the q6600 will slow the game down, It is multithreaded but the spead behaviour we know is acting up, its being worked on, dropping the game from core0 helps a weee tiny smidge when most of the ativity is moved to the less busy core1 then what overspill can go over will plop over to cores2 & 3.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    The /affinity switch for cmd-exe is a hexadecimal mask, right?

    If you wanted to just exclude NS2.exe from running on core 0 on a quad core you'd set the affinity to 1110b = 0xE, which is "/affinity E".
  • proudtigerproudtiger Join Date: 2011-01-02 Member: 76105Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1820921:date=Jan 3 2011, 01:45 AM:name=Soylent_green)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Soylent_green @ Jan 3 2011, 01:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1820921"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The /affinity switch for cmd-exe is a hexadecimal mask, right?

    If you wanted to just exclude NS2.exe from running on core 0 on a quad core you'd set the affinity to 1110b = 0xE, which is "/affinity E".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Woosh.
  • AdamaAdama Join Date: 2010-12-21 Member: 75826Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1820801:date=Jan 2 2011, 01:02 AM:name=SgtBarlow)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SgtBarlow @ Jan 2 2011, 01:02 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1820801"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Forcing the game client to run on one core for most users with budget multi core CPUS like the q6600 will slow the game down, It is multithreaded but the spead behaviour we know is acting up, its being worked on, dropping the game from core0 helps a weee tiny smidge when most of the ativity is moved to the less busy core1 then what overspill can go over will plop over to cores2 & 3

    It shaves 20fps off for me running it on one core but if you have like a dual core 3.4ghz 1333 cpu then maybe moving ns2.exe away from core0 to core1 + 2&3 on a quad <u>may</u> help a tad.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Missing the point entirely - The point is NOT to move it to a 'less busy core' - it's to force it to use ONE core only, therefore threads are not moving between multiple cores where the problem looks to be. So yes, you are likely to get an FPS drop as you are using one core and not two. But the stutter should be reduced as I believe the problem is when it's 'core hopping'.

    Everyone understand this concept or am I going nuts?
  • AsranielAsraniel Join Date: 2002-06-03 Member: 724Members, Playtest Lead, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Retired Community Developer
    from looking at the profiling output the problem is not core hopping, but the lua garbage collector
  • syprosypro Join Date: 2009-10-31 Member: 69195Members
    This is my system: i7860@4.0 8gig@1600 and a 5870. I do not have any of these sutters people talk about, but just minor frame drops you see when you play games with bad map optimization. The reason im posting this is not brag or complain but so people know that the system ain't evrything. Im gonna make the jump to the 6990 or CF 6970 once the pricelists are up so i'll see what the diffrence will be, fps wise. I don't have any techical knowledge of the code but i think it won't make that much of a diffrence.
  • Soylent_greenSoylent_green Join Date: 2002-12-20 Member: 11220Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited January 2011
    <!--quoteo(post=1820950:date=Jan 2 2011, 12:04 PM:name=Adama)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Adama @ Jan 2 2011, 12:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1820950"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Missing the point entirely - The point is NOT to move it to a 'less busy core' - it's to force it to use ONE core only, therefore threads are not moving between multiple cores where the problem looks to be.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    So you said, but I can't even contrive a scenario where it could possibly help. I find it more likely that poor framerate is better at perceptually masking the hitching. I tried it and I can't say that I see a difference.

    The 'classic' problems games designed for single-core CPUs have had with multi-core systems is the use of the RDTSC instruction without setting thread affinity to one core; which leads to jitter in the timer and jerky movement and animations, but this is not framerate hitching and does not look remotely like it. RDTSC should't be used even with thread affinity set to a single core as it doesn't measure wall-time, but CPU time in clocks; modern CPUs that can alter their clock frequency on the fly and this leads to disaster if you try and use it for measuring wall-time.

    <!--quoteo(post=1820950:date=Jan 2 2011, 12:04 PM:name=Adama)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Adama @ Jan 2 2011, 12:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1820950"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So yes, you are likely to get an FPS drop as you are using one core and not two. But the stutter should be reduced as I believe the problem is when it's 'core hopping'.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    It might be helpful if you could contrive some scenario in which a thread moving around amongs the cores could cause delays of tens of milliseconds or point to some prior case where this has happened; just as proof of concept.

    <!--quoteo(post=1820950:date=Jan 2 2011, 12:04 PM:name=Adama)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Adama @ Jan 2 2011, 12:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1820950"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Everyone understand this concept or am I going nuts?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Can it not be both? :-)
This discussion has been closed.