<!--quoteo(post=1821662:date=Jan 5 2011, 12:33 PM:name=Yuuki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Yuuki @ Jan 5 2011, 12:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1821662"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Isn't that a sign of huge success ? I mean that a bunch of pixels and laggy network informations transform somehow in emotions. I think the being commander should scare people, because it should be important in the game. The game should create this illusion that things matter although they are childish amusement.
Complaining about the commander is also part of the game to me, it's like complaining about politicians; our best pastime.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think the emphasis was on 'you get murdered if you go near it and you don't know exactly what you're doing' rather than 'evokes mass displays of religious ecstacy'.
<!--quoteo(post=1821649:date=Jan 5 2011, 10:09 AM:name=McGlaspie)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (McGlaspie @ Jan 5 2011, 10:09 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1821649"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->While this is true from a simplistic and conceptual sense, I disagree with the pragmatic application of it in the context of NS. When looking at it from a basic heuristics standpoint you are correct, but actually applying this removes the human intuition out of it which is where we get new and interesting outcomes from (for the most part, current Beta excluded). Not too mention the adaptability of a person in the comm chair verses the linear if/else style actions of an "AI". Yes, I'm aware of Neural Nets, Finite State Machines, Genetic Algorithms, etc. These only go so far. Although, I will admit figuring out how to train a Neural Net to be a NS Commander would be an interesting problem. :)
Hell, from a more basic stand-point; do you really want that much more crap running on the server(s)? I don't.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then you can put a player in the chair if you really need all of that. But I bet you any money that if you gave me a team of half decent players, and an AI commander which can place buildings following a pre-defined pattern and research the required things, we would be able to have fun and give the aliens a run for their money, which is a significant improvement over what happens currently if you don't have a perfect commander, especially in the early game. At the start it doesn't matter which way you go, you just have to get an expansion base up quickly and populate main with an armory and IP. A computer can do that with perfect speed every time, that in itself is an improvement.
The commander really isn't that important beyond providing basic team services. I don't need the commander to have magical human intuition, because I have that myself. I can decide where to go quite easily if you tell me what's happening on the map, hell much of the time I don't need to decide, I just need to get enough people pushing in a direction and eventually it will take me across the map.
NS is not very complex commander wise. it barely has a tech tree and you generally only need one or two of most of the structures, they can only be placed in specific locations, the maps are highly structured so the same chokes and objectives will be present in all games, it really lends itself quite excellently to AI commanding.
Personally I'd rather have a perfectly reliable but entirely unintelligent AI commander following a script with perfect accuracy than a player. An AI can do many things a player cannot, they could perfectly medspam for example, although I would advise against programming that in as it would make marines invincible, but being able to drop refs and comm chairs as soon as a player is near a clear res node or tech point for example, and send MACs to construct any buildings that don't have players building them, that would be extremely useful. As well as being able to use strategies and paths designed by highly capable commandes.
Adaptability is very overrated, it's neccesary in real life but in games you can feed any information you want to into the computer and the game has immutable boundaries for the computer to work within.
As for server load, I don't think it's a problem. Most of it would just be 'when player enters <area> perform <action>' or 'when <step> is complete perform <next step>' and stuff like that. It'd be less work than handling the dozens of keypresses going on at once from the players on the server.
on the issue of an AI commander maybe for a noob friendly server... but thats just combat isn't it?
I think you're over simplifying the commander aspect of a RTS - the S being strategy. Having an AI com that automatically drops something when a player is near removes all strategy and just simply makes for linear redundant gameplay. And say the marine rushs into west and the commander drops a chair an extractor that are immediately taken out by skulk rush and all resources are wasted. I am sure you could have it autorecycle the cc before its dies but i imagine it would be to the same effect.
Really what needs to be done is either good how to vids (NS2HD /wink) and other information to help players. But one of the hardest things about comming is the strategy aspect. Knowing what to spend where and when. I as a commander have the choice of going for simply whats closest to me or making risky moves for big rewards. Rushing to cap the hive thats closest to the marine base provides an extreme advantage and often prevents them from moving on to later game as long as the closer tech points are safe. But the fact of the matter is gameplay will change significantly before this game is released. Early game will be balanced, objectives will be different, marines getting flamethrowers will not be so extremely damning and aliens rushing shouldn't always guarantee a win(not that it does atm, cooperation is key).
There is the option of someone trying to mod up a simple script/single play go through to learn comming. There could even be interest in 1 vs 1 comming servers as game progresses. Truly one of the most intense and fun aspects of ns2 right now can be comming but only with a team almost as competent as the com. Really we need minimap for players with alerts, as mentioned above. And a few people have been looking at the .lua and seeing if the can jerry rig something up. As soon as the game gets easier for new players to know where they are and where to go it will help out. The next just comes from them communicating. The largest problem I run into is when no one else I am playing with says anything voice or chat.
AI will be necessary for bots and a single-player campaign, so in that vein, I support it. Having an AI in a pub game could be good, could be bad - either way, it'll be interesting to see.
<!--quoteo(post=1821670:date=Jan 5 2011, 01:32 PM:name=Rulgrok)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Rulgrok @ Jan 5 2011, 01:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1821670"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->on the issue of an AI commander maybe for a noob friendly server... but thats just combat isn't it?
I think you're over simplifying the commander aspect of a RTS - the S being strategy. Having an AI com that automatically drops something when a player is near removes all strategy and just simply makes for linear redundant gameplay. And say the marine rushs into west and the commander drops a chair an extractor that are immediately taken out by skulk rush and all resources are wasted. I am sure you could have it autorecycle the cc before its dies but i imagine it would be to the same effect.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then you add an extra element to the condition, if <node> has marine next to it AND no enemies are nearby THEN drop a chair. Conditions need some thought but they aren't hugely complicated.
Also how is it combat? What's the difference between an AI comm dropping things and a human comm dropping them? It doesn't change the thing being dropped, it doesn't become somehow special because a human told the computer to spawn it rather than a bit of code.
Commanding in natural selection takes a lot of finesse and patience. Hopefully ns2 will foster the same support ns1 had community wise. I remember hopping into my first comm chair shortly after installing the game. I had no idea how to do anything the ui was strange and a lot of things were happening around the map. Luckily the server I landed on had a very helpful community. It will be up to the alpha and beta players to teach the commanders on the fly on what to do. If you don't you are really doing a disservice to yourself since inevitably your team will lose.
Either that or if UWE has the money it wouldn't be bad idea to have a small tutorial in the game about how to: Marine/Alien command. That way when the first time commander hops in your local pub server he is at least aware of most of the things he should be doing.
As per request, moving that* discussion, since it's become extremely relevant to this one: * <!--quoteo(post=1821931:date=Jan 6 2011, 04:12 PM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Jan 6 2011, 04:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1821931"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=1821758:date=Jan 6 2011, 04:31 AM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Jan 6 2011, 04:31 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1821758"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you hinge the success of the entire team on the ability of one person to do their job perfectly, you make the game liable to cause a LOT of frustrating losses.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Rather than that, you just have to make the game more conducive to "perfect" commanders. "Perfect" in this case simply meaning 'not stupid'. If a commander chooses the wrong research path or expansion location, then that, in my opinion, is an acceptable loss - it's a strategical error, it should result in loss. But if a commander is confused or doesn't really know what to do, that's something else entirely.
This can be achieved through for example: more intuitive and transparent tech trees, and perhaps a compulsory* offline "Commander Aptitude Test" which effectively serves as a challenging tutorial whereupon successful completion allows you access to the command chair online. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> *compulsory to command online, that is.
<!--quoteo(post=1821771:date=Jan 5 2011, 03:57 PM:name=Lazer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Lazer @ Jan 5 2011, 03:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1821771"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think part of the issue is an entire team of noobs vs a team of noobs with a few good players to guide and teach the others. Because this is not a pure deathmatch game there is always going to be a learning curve for new players, and if experienced players don't try to help new players at least some frustration is inevitable.
A squad leader ability might help but I don't see this much different from 'guys follow the mac'. The main two issues right now are just that many people are new and the commander's features and functionality are still in development (look at pivotal tracker) so even NS1 vets can get confused with its current state. Complaining about the comm right now is like complaining about the flamethrower shooting through walls as if its gonna be left that way...
The only commander issue that should at least be explored right now is multiple commanders being able to interfere with each other. There has been no mention of if this is intentional or not and I can certainly find reasons why it isn't desirable but plenty why it is too. <!--coloro:#FFc566--><span style="color:#FFc566"><!--/coloro--><b>Honestly right now the best approach might very well be a checkbox in the commander interface to toggle on and off if you would like other commanders to be able to 'use' the stuff you have placed. This way those who don't want interference won't be bothered and those who want to work together with other comms can still</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->. (And if the commander logs out any other comms can play with your stuff unless you log back in again)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
My thoughts
1. Need a single-player commander tutorial (with on-screen instructions that need to be finished before you can continue, essentially like the tutorial that comes with every RTS ever made) 2. Need the ability to votekick the comm 3. Would be nice (but not necessary) for a basic AI commander for no one wants to comm 4. Remove (or heavily restrict) the multiple commanders 5. Update the comm GUI
These points will become more and more relevant as NS2 gets more noobs and griefers.
<!--quoteo(post=1821603:date=Jan 4 2011, 11:58 PM:name=Mkilbride)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mkilbride @ Jan 4 2011, 11:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1821603"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yeah, I would be, if that was true. I never threatened anything about "recycling" the Team, however that is done. The plain fact is you were sitting around doing NOTHING. I wasn't the only one complaining either, when I JOINED the game, people were already ###### about you. I left right after he started complaining I was helping the Team, because I can't stand people who are clearly doing nothing complaining about something doing nothing, who is the only one doing anything.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I was in that game. Handle: "Wolf".
To summarize the events, from the point of view of a marine on the ground:
1. "Insufficient Funds" was winning the game as expected (he's one of the best commanders in NS2, for both teams, which completely undermines your accusations btw).
2. NO ONE was complaining about Insufficient's performance but you.
3. I hear on the mic that Insufficient mid-sentence noticed you're in the west cc and says something like "...and why are you in the west cc".
4. You tell Insufficient to get out of the command chair. Begin saying completely false statements about how Insufficient was somehow failing to com. And mentioned how you were going to write a thread so everyone knows not to play with him etc etc. The ######-fest continued until the point where either you stopped talking or you raged... i can't remember which occurred... was to preoccupied with the endgame/winning.
Lol, he was the first one to say he'd come to the forums and write up a thread not to play with me, so I said I'd do the same...I don't see either of us making a thread. No one? Dude, I swear the second I joined, I saw the text "idiot comm" from two different users.
Ah man, I can't believe in a game not even out yet there are trolls.
I never said I'd make a thread. When you got in the second CC, started being a rude jackass, and made some threats without helping our team I made mention that I'd make sure my friends would know about you but you've done such a fine job on your own. Especially trying to call me out and look tough on the forums.
Stop being a trolling lamer - post productive topics. My experience with you so far has done far more to hurt the game than help it. You also seem to have a very narrow understanding of the fundamentals of this games mechanics - mostly teamwork.
A team isn't only as good as the commander, but also those following the orders. In that game you didn't follow orders, you ran off thinking you knew what to do better, and ended up rage quitting. You didn't seem to be a very good team player and what you did feel like communicating through chat was moronic narcissistic dribble spouted by a self-righteous rambo who must impart his perspective onto others.
Can we lock this thread? If it just going to be a war about whether or not I am decent commander can we just let game play speak and keep it off the forums, this is childish.
- And if you'd like to scrim I am sure I can arrange one sometime.
<!--quoteo(post=1822257:date=Jan 7 2011, 06:30 AM:name=Rulgrok)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Rulgrok @ Jan 7 2011, 06:30 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1822257"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->/shrug NS2HD and a lot of others think otherwise.
I never said I'd make a thread. When you got in the second CC, started being a rude jackass, and made some threats without helping our team I made mention that I'd make sure my friends would know about you but you've done such a fine job on your own. Especially trying to call me out and look tough on the forums.
Stop being a trolling lamer - post productive topics. My experience with you so far has done far more to hurt the game than help it. You also seem to have a very narrow understanding of the fundamentals of this games mechanics - mostly teamwork.
A team isn't only as good as the commander, but also those following the orders. In that game you didn't follow orders, you ran off though you knew what to do better, and ended up rage quitting. You didn't seem to be a very good team player and what you did feel like communicating through chat was moronic narcissistic dribble spouted by a self-righteous rambo who must impart his perspective onto others.
Can we lock this thread? If it just going to be a war about whether or not I am decent commander can we just let game play speak and keep it off the forums, this is childish.
- And if you'd like to scrim I am sure I can arrange one sometime.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't scrim, I find THAT childish. Also, this topic is not about you, it's about Commanders in general. A few pages back, you attempted to make it about you, but then it died down until your little friend Wolf here decided to troll and bring it up again. Just let it die, man.
<!--quoteo(post=1822268:date=Jan 7 2011, 01:20 AM:name=Mkilbride)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mkilbride @ Jan 7 2011, 01:20 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1822268"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't scrim, I find THAT childish. Also, this topic is not about you, it's about Commanders in general. A few pages back, you attempted to make it about you, but then it died down until your little friend Wolf here decided to troll and bring it up again. Just let it die, man.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
^ Right lets talk about bad commanders in general.
So uh, let's get this back on track: <!--quoteo(post=1821931:date=Jan 6 2011, 04:12 PM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Jan 6 2011, 04:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1821931"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=1821758:date=Jan 6 2011, 04:31 AM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Jan 6 2011, 04:31 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1821758"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you hinge the success of the entire team on the ability of one person to do their job perfectly, you make the game liable to cause a LOT of frustrating losses.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Rather than that, you just have to make the game more conducive to "perfect" commanders. "Perfect" in this case simply meaning 'not stupid'. If a commander chooses the wrong research path or expansion location, then that, in my opinion, is an acceptable loss - it's a strategical error, it should result in loss. But if a commander is confused or doesn't really know what to do, that's something else entirely.
This can be achieved through for example: more intuitive and transparent tech trees, and perhaps a compulsory* offline "Commander Aptitude Test" which effectively serves as a challenging tutorial whereupon successful completion allows you access to the command chair online. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> *compulsory to command online, that is.
<u>This game, NS, necessarily depends on the commander, and I wouldn't have it any other way.</u> I would, however, make the barrier to entry much lower than it is now; as well as placing an artificial barrier (the commander aptitude test) so that people don't end up with extremely bad (i.e. stupid and doesn't know what to do) comms.
<!--quoteo(post=1822313:date=Jan 7 2011, 06:46 PM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Jan 7 2011, 06:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1822313"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Basically they just have to "win" once, offline, then hopefully they grasp how to command, and are allowed to command on online servers. Could have a simple "Access denied" or "Access granted" when you attempt to log in to the comm chair. I'd make it challenging enough that it wouldn't be boring, and so that a complete noob wouldn't get through it on the first playthrough. But it would also serve as a disguised tutorial for new players completely new to NS commanding, and veterans getting updated on the particular quirks of NS2 commanding.
Same deal for alien commander, hivemind candidates, and hives.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes of course its a undone beta, but i am sure it will not change soon and we can talk about it. Most times NS2 160 Beta have 2 endings: 1. The Aliens are fast and destroy the marines base because they don't have a good defence (well places sentry turrets for example) and don't go outside his base. 2. The Marines reach the Flamethrower upgrade and the aliens mostly fu...d, this is most times the end of the aliens and the alien player leave because there is no chance.
Some very bad gameplay issue: - Flamethrower, yes we talk a loooooooooot about it - Powernodes, repaired in like 4 seconds from 0 to 100% - a lot sentrys in one place
<!--quoteo(post=1822161:date=Jan 7 2011, 01:52 AM:name=FocusedWolf)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (FocusedWolf @ Jan 7 2011, 01:52 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1822161"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->1. "Insufficient Funds" was winning the game as expected (he's one of the best commanders in NS2, for both teams, which completely undermines your accusations btw).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> +1. Period.
<!--quoteo(post=1822021:date=Jan 6 2011, 05:18 PM:name=Lazer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Lazer @ Jan 6 2011, 05:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1822021"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Since it's more relevant here: Honestly right now the best approach might very well be a checkbox in the commander interface to toggle on and off if you would like other commanders to be able to 'use' the stuff you have placed. This way those who don't want interference won't be bothered and those who want to work together with other comms can still.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> +1 - including other cc's to prevent unnecessary carbon spending by 2nd comm
Comments
Complaining about the commander is also part of the game to me, it's like complaining about politicians; our best pastime.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think the emphasis was on 'you get murdered if you go near it and you don't know exactly what you're doing' rather than 'evokes mass displays of religious ecstacy'.
Hell, from a more basic stand-point; do you really want that much more crap running on the server(s)? I don't.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then you can put a player in the chair if you really need all of that. But I bet you any money that if you gave me a team of half decent players, and an AI commander which can place buildings following a pre-defined pattern and research the required things, we would be able to have fun and give the aliens a run for their money, which is a significant improvement over what happens currently if you don't have a perfect commander, especially in the early game. At the start it doesn't matter which way you go, you just have to get an expansion base up quickly and populate main with an armory and IP. A computer can do that with perfect speed every time, that in itself is an improvement.
The commander really isn't that important beyond providing basic team services. I don't need the commander to have magical human intuition, because I have that myself. I can decide where to go quite easily if you tell me what's happening on the map, hell much of the time I don't need to decide, I just need to get enough people pushing in a direction and eventually it will take me across the map.
NS is not very complex commander wise. it barely has a tech tree and you generally only need one or two of most of the structures, they can only be placed in specific locations, the maps are highly structured so the same chokes and objectives will be present in all games, it really lends itself quite excellently to AI commanding.
Personally I'd rather have a perfectly reliable but entirely unintelligent AI commander following a script with perfect accuracy than a player. An AI can do many things a player cannot, they could perfectly medspam for example, although I would advise against programming that in as it would make marines invincible, but being able to drop refs and comm chairs as soon as a player is near a clear res node or tech point for example, and send MACs to construct any buildings that don't have players building them, that would be extremely useful. As well as being able to use strategies and paths designed by highly capable commandes.
Adaptability is very overrated, it's neccesary in real life but in games you can feed any information you want to into the computer and the game has immutable boundaries for the computer to work within.
As for server load, I don't think it's a problem. Most of it would just be 'when player enters <area> perform <action>' or 'when <step> is complete perform <next step>' and stuff like that. It'd be less work than handling the dozens of keypresses going on at once from the players on the server.
I think you're over simplifying the commander aspect of a RTS - the S being strategy. Having an AI com that automatically drops something when a player is near removes all strategy and just simply makes for linear redundant gameplay. And say the marine rushs into west and the commander drops a chair an extractor that are immediately taken out by skulk rush and all resources are wasted. I am sure you could have it autorecycle the cc before its dies but i imagine it would be to the same effect.
Really what needs to be done is either good how to vids (NS2HD /wink) and other information to help players. But one of the hardest things about comming is the strategy aspect. Knowing what to spend where and when. I as a commander have the choice of going for simply whats closest to me or making risky moves for big rewards. Rushing to cap the hive thats closest to the marine base provides an extreme advantage and often prevents them from moving on to later game as long as the closer tech points are safe. But the fact of the matter is gameplay will change significantly before this game is released. Early game will be balanced, objectives will be different, marines getting flamethrowers will not be so extremely damning and aliens rushing shouldn't always guarantee a win(not that it does atm, cooperation is key).
There is the option of someone trying to mod up a simple script/single play go through to learn comming. There could even be interest in 1 vs 1 comming servers as game progresses. Truly one of the most intense and fun aspects of ns2 right now can be comming but only with a team almost as competent as the com. Really we need minimap for players with alerts, as mentioned above. And a few people have been looking at the .lua and seeing if the can jerry rig something up. As soon as the game gets easier for new players to know where they are and where to go it will help out. The next just comes from them communicating. The largest problem I run into is when no one else I am playing with says anything voice or chat.
I think you're over simplifying the commander aspect of a RTS - the S being strategy. Having an AI com that automatically drops something when a player is near removes all strategy and just simply makes for linear redundant gameplay. And say the marine rushs into west and the commander drops a chair an extractor that are immediately taken out by skulk rush and all resources are wasted. I am sure you could have it autorecycle the cc before its dies but i imagine it would be to the same effect.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then you add an extra element to the condition, if <node> has marine next to it AND no enemies are nearby THEN drop a chair. Conditions need some thought but they aren't hugely complicated.
Also how is it combat? What's the difference between an AI comm dropping things and a human comm dropping them? It doesn't change the thing being dropped, it doesn't become somehow special because a human told the computer to spawn it rather than a bit of code.
Either that or if UWE has the money it wouldn't be bad idea to have a small tutorial in the game about how to: Marine/Alien command. That way when the first time commander hops in your local pub server he is at least aware of most of the things he should be doing.
*
<!--quoteo(post=1821931:date=Jan 6 2011, 04:12 PM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Jan 6 2011, 04:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1821931"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=1821758:date=Jan 6 2011, 04:31 AM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Jan 6 2011, 04:31 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1821758"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you hinge the success of the entire team on the ability of one person to do their job perfectly, you make the game liable to cause a LOT of frustrating losses.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Rather than that, you just have to make the game more conducive to "perfect" commanders. "Perfect" in this case simply meaning 'not stupid'. If a commander chooses the wrong research path or expansion location, then that, in my opinion, is an acceptable loss - it's a strategical error, it should result in loss. But if a commander is confused or doesn't really know what to do, that's something else entirely.
This can be achieved through for example: more intuitive and transparent tech trees, and perhaps a compulsory* offline "Commander Aptitude Test" which effectively serves as a challenging tutorial whereupon successful completion allows you access to the command chair online.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
*compulsory to command online, that is.
<!--quoteo(post=1821771:date=Jan 5 2011, 03:57 PM:name=Lazer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Lazer @ Jan 5 2011, 03:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1821771"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think part of the issue is an entire team of noobs vs a team of noobs with a few good players to guide and teach the others. Because this is not a pure deathmatch game there is always going to be a learning curve for new players, and if experienced players don't try to help new players at least some frustration is inevitable.
A squad leader ability might help but I don't see this much different from 'guys follow the mac'. The main two issues right now are just that many people are new and the commander's features and functionality are still in development (look at pivotal tracker) so even NS1 vets can get confused with its current state. Complaining about the comm right now is like complaining about the flamethrower shooting through walls as if its gonna be left that way...
The only commander issue that should at least be explored right now is multiple commanders being able to interfere with each other. There has been no mention of if this is intentional or not and I can certainly find reasons why it isn't desirable but plenty why it is too. <!--coloro:#FFc566--><span style="color:#FFc566"><!--/coloro--><b>Honestly right now the best approach might very well be a checkbox in the commander interface to toggle on and off if you would like other commanders to be able to 'use' the stuff you have placed. This way those who don't want interference won't be bothered and those who want to work together with other comms can still</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->. (And if the commander logs out any other comms can play with your stuff unless you log back in again)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1. Need a single-player commander tutorial (with on-screen instructions that need to be finished before you can continue, essentially like the tutorial that comes with every RTS ever made)
2. Need the ability to votekick the comm
3. Would be nice (but not necessary) for a basic AI commander for no one wants to comm
4. Remove (or heavily restrict) the multiple commanders
5. Update the comm GUI
These points will become more and more relevant as NS2 gets more noobs and griefers.
I was in that game. Handle: "Wolf".
To summarize the events, from the point of view of a marine on the ground:
1. "Insufficient Funds" was winning the game as expected (he's one of the best commanders in NS2, for both teams, which completely undermines your accusations btw).
2. NO ONE was complaining about Insufficient's performance but you.
3. I hear on the mic that Insufficient mid-sentence noticed you're in the west cc and says something like "...and why are you in the west cc".
4. You tell Insufficient to get out of the command chair. Begin saying completely false statements about how Insufficient was somehow failing to com. And mentioned how you were going to write a thread so everyone knows not to play with him etc etc. The ######-fest continued until the point where either you stopped talking or you raged... i can't remember which occurred... was to preoccupied with the endgame/winning.
Ah man, I can't believe in a game not even out yet there are trolls.
I never said I'd make a thread. When you got in the second CC, started being a rude jackass, and made some threats without helping our team I made mention that I'd make sure my friends would know about you but you've done such a fine job on your own. Especially trying to call me out and look tough on the forums.
Stop being a trolling lamer - post productive topics. My experience with you so far has done far more to hurt the game than help it. You also seem to have a very narrow understanding of the fundamentals of this games mechanics - mostly teamwork.
A team isn't only as good as the commander, but also those following the orders. In that game you didn't follow orders, you ran off thinking you knew what to do better, and ended up rage quitting. You didn't seem to be a very good team player and what you did feel like communicating through chat was moronic narcissistic dribble spouted by a self-righteous rambo who must impart his perspective onto others.
Can we lock this thread? If it just going to be a war about whether or not I am decent commander can we just let game play speak and keep it off the forums, this is childish.
- And if you'd like to scrim I am sure I can arrange one sometime.
I never said I'd make a thread. When you got in the second CC, started being a rude jackass, and made some threats without helping our team I made mention that I'd make sure my friends would know about you but you've done such a fine job on your own. Especially trying to call me out and look tough on the forums.
Stop being a trolling lamer - post productive topics. My experience with you so far has done far more to hurt the game than help it. You also seem to have a very narrow understanding of the fundamentals of this games mechanics - mostly teamwork.
A team isn't only as good as the commander, but also those following the orders. In that game you didn't follow orders, you ran off though you knew what to do better, and ended up rage quitting. You didn't seem to be a very good team player and what you did feel like communicating through chat was moronic narcissistic dribble spouted by a self-righteous rambo who must impart his perspective onto others.
Can we lock this thread? If it just going to be a war about whether or not I am decent commander can we just let game play speak and keep it off the forums, this is childish.
- And if you'd like to scrim I am sure I can arrange one sometime.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't scrim, I find THAT childish. Also, this topic is not about you, it's about Commanders in general. A few pages back, you attempted to make it about you, but then it died down until your little friend Wolf here decided to troll and bring it up again. Just let it die, man.
^ Right lets talk about bad commanders in general.
So uh, let's get this back on track:
<!--quoteo(post=1821931:date=Jan 6 2011, 04:12 PM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Jan 6 2011, 04:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1821931"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=1821758:date=Jan 6 2011, 04:31 AM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Jan 6 2011, 04:31 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1821758"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you hinge the success of the entire team on the ability of one person to do their job perfectly, you make the game liable to cause a LOT of frustrating losses.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Rather than that, you just have to make the game more conducive to "perfect" commanders. "Perfect" in this case simply meaning 'not stupid'. If a commander chooses the wrong research path or expansion location, then that, in my opinion, is an acceptable loss - it's a strategical error, it should result in loss. But if a commander is confused or doesn't really know what to do, that's something else entirely.
This can be achieved through for example: more intuitive and transparent tech trees, and perhaps a compulsory* offline "Commander Aptitude Test" which effectively serves as a challenging tutorial whereupon successful completion allows you access to the command chair online.
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*compulsory to command online, that is.
<u>This game, NS, necessarily depends on the commander, and I wouldn't have it any other way.</u> I would, however, make the barrier to entry much lower than it is now; as well as placing an artificial barrier (the commander aptitude test) so that people don't end up with extremely bad (i.e. stupid and doesn't know what to do) comms.
<!--quoteo(post=1822313:date=Jan 7 2011, 06:46 PM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Jan 7 2011, 06:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1822313"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Basically they just have to "win" once, offline, then hopefully they grasp how to command, and are allowed to command on online servers. Could have a simple "Access denied" or "Access granted" when you attempt to log in to the comm chair. I'd make it challenging enough that it wouldn't be boring, and so that a complete noob wouldn't get through it on the first playthrough. But it would also serve as a disguised tutorial for new players completely new to NS commanding, and veterans getting updated on the particular quirks of NS2 commanding.
Same deal for alien commander, hivemind candidates, and hives.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Most times NS2 160 Beta have 2 endings:
1. The Aliens are fast and destroy the marines base because they don't have a good defence (well places sentry turrets for example) and don't go outside his base.
2. The Marines reach the Flamethrower upgrade and the aliens mostly fu...d, this is most times the end of the aliens and the alien player leave because there is no chance.
Some very bad gameplay issue:
- Flamethrower, yes we talk a loooooooooot about it
- Powernodes, repaired in like 4 seconds from 0 to 100%
- a lot sentrys in one place
+1. Period.
<!--quoteo(post=1822021:date=Jan 6 2011, 05:18 PM:name=Lazer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Lazer @ Jan 6 2011, 05:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1822021"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Since it's more relevant here:
Honestly right now the best approach might very well be a checkbox in the commander interface to toggle on and off if you would like other commanders to be able to 'use' the stuff you have placed. This way those who don't want interference won't be bothered and those who want to work together with other comms can still.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1 - including other cc's to prevent unnecessary carbon spending by 2nd comm