No LODs, why? (Level of Detail)
Price
Join Date: 2003-09-27 Member: 21247Members
Join Date: 2003-09-27 Member: 21247Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Just a question, im just curios</div><!--sizeo:6--><span style="font-size:24pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><b>Can be deleted </b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
(Reason: the game don't need LODs, because of occlusing culling)
Why is the game not using LODs or is it not important with the Occlusion culling?
But i guess it will increase some FPS or not?
Im just curios why its not used.
LOD = Level of Detail
If you for example right in front of a model it will show the full model with all the polycount, if you are like 10 yards away, it will use the LOD 1 Model, which has less polygones but you don't notice that because you don't see the details in that far away.
Or will it added later?
(Reason: the game don't need LODs, because of occlusing culling)
Why is the game not using LODs or is it not important with the Occlusion culling?
But i guess it will increase some FPS or not?
Im just curios why its not used.
LOD = Level of Detail
If you for example right in front of a model it will show the full model with all the polycount, if you are like 10 yards away, it will use the LOD 1 Model, which has less polygones but you don't notice that because you don't see the details in that far away.
Or will it added later?
Comments
The only situation i could see an improvement would be in commander view. Actually i think it would help quite a bit there
Specialy as Lerk you have some long distance fights (Rockdown for example).
Or like you say the commander, maybe the commander could zoom out with mousewheel and the player/alien/buildings models are replaced by images, which gives people with very low pc, the ability to smooth the battlefield, like in surpreme commander.
That's true, but I would like seeing it added so mod teams can take advantage of it. Large open maps wouldn't work for NS2, but it could be interesting for certain types of FPS/RTS gameplay.
Sure its a old engine with bsp system and the spark engine use other newer features but for the commander, LOD can be very usefull, he don't need the high poly models, i guess.
@BAshh
I try modding for the source engine and i notice if you use a LOD it can end in low fps if you use it wrong, like to much LOD models, but if you did it correct, it can give a lot of fps.
For example for Playermodels, if they far away, you don't notice the change, only the fps goes higher.
Of course i have never that big understand like the UWE team, how can i, they are developers, im just a new tiny modder.
So i hope on a answer, maybe they will use it later, they have a lot to do, its a new engine.
Also as you mentioned, it really has to be used correctly or it's worse than worthless. "Long corridors" don't really count; it really only works as a benefit to performance in large-scale outdoor environments without obstructions. So it might be a feature that helps modders in the future, but it's just not worth it for NS2.
I have several mod (both partial and total conversions) ideas that are dependent upon a LOD. I really hope Max is planning on adding this at some point.
I have several mod (both partial and total conversions) ideas that are dependent upon a LOD. I really hope Max is planning on adding this at some point.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As far as I know, CLOD is really only useful for terrain rendering. It would produce too much deformation on a very precisely textured, normal mapped player model. So that might be good for future modding potential based on sweeping outdoor environments, but in that case they'd also have to change a lot of other things -- the lighting model, for instance, only really supports indoor lighting at the moment. Again, good ideas, but not useful until well after a successful release of NS2.
<img src="http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/7558/89318215.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
<img src="http://img510.imageshack.us/img510/8619/86280375.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Sure its a old engine with bsp system and the spark engine use other newer features but for the commander, LOD can be very usefull, he don't need the high poly models, i guess.
@BAshh
I try modding for the source engine and i notice if you use a LOD it can end in low fps if you use it wrong, like to much LOD models, but if you did it correct, it can give a lot of fps.
For example for Playermodels, if they far away, you don't notice the change, only the fps goes higher.
Of course i have never that big understand like the UWE team, how can i, they are developers, im just a new tiny modder.
So i hope on a answer, maybe they will use it later, they have a lot to do, its a new engine.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've worked plenty with source, and I had a ###### computer and still didn't notice any real value in game improvement. The only noticeable difference for me was when a map was made properly, with all the right culls and proper hiding of unseen geometry. Granted, I also wasn't using 10's of thousands of polygons for my models either, but I still didn't notice enough improvement to really require using it.
The flipside of that may be that I just didn't have a good enough of a computer to run well even with LOD's.
If you are serious about video games then you should have a computer that can atleast run NS2.
This game isn't crysis or anything, don't ask the developers to dumb the games down so people who are too cheap to buy a comp can play it without lag.
The engine is still in development and will still go through a lot of optimisation runs as the game improves.
That just means it's working - you're not supposed to notice. It's purely for performance reasons, if you notice the shift th
<!--quoteo(post=1822711:date=Jan 8 2011, 07:17 PM:name=NurEinMensch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NurEinMensch @ Jan 8 2011, 07:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1822711"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->With the rather small indoor environments of Natural Selection I'm not sure the additional overhead of maintaining model LoDs would be worth it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you're in the other end of a corridor looking at a marine then you don't need to be able to read what it says on his gun, you can't do that anyway. There's enough distance in NS2 for LOD or something similar to still make sense.
<!--quoteo(post=1822767:date=Jan 9 2011, 12:08 AM:name=-Diesel-)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (-Diesel- @ Jan 9 2011, 12:08 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1822767"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This game isn't crysis or anything, don't ask the developers to dumb the games down so people who are too cheap to buy a comp can play it without lag.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nothing you say makes sense.
Here's an example of what can happen when you don't use LOD.
<a href="http://forums.tf2maps.net/showthread.php?t=15836" target="_blank">http://forums.tf2maps.net/showthread.php?t=15836</a>
<a href="http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1281220/levelofdetail/index.htm" target="_blank">http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1281220/levelofdetail/index.htm</a>
<a href="http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1281220/levelofdetail/page2.htm" target="_blank">http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1281220/levelofdetail/page2.htm</a>
If you are serious about video games then you should have a computer that can atleast run NS2.
This game isn't crysis or anything, don't ask the developers to dumb the games down so people who are too cheap to buy a comp can play it without lag.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then why do any optimization at all? Also, how does LOD dumb the game down? Do you really play a game where you need model detail at full way in the distance of a map? UWE doesn't necessarily need to do LOD specifically, but I'd like them to do something to reduce the performance cost of distant models for people who want to make more open maps.
If you are serious about video games then you should have a computer that can atleast run NS2.
This game isn't crysis or anything, don't ask the developers to dumb the games down so people who are too cheap to buy a comp can play it without lag.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Riiiight. Because we all have the money to spend on new top-of-the-line systems. Go away, troll.
Given that you've probably never played a game that doesn't use it that would hardly be surprising.
<!--quoteo(post=1822711:date=Jan 8 2011, 06:17 PM:name=NurEinMensch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NurEinMensch @ Jan 8 2011, 06:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1822711"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->With the rather small indoor environments of Natural Selection I'm not sure the additional overhead of maintaining model LoDs would be worth it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
With the excessively detailed models which comprise 90% of the NS2 environment it most certainly would be.
Some kind of LOD will be needed for commander view. If commander can see 10 fades, lots of structures and 10 rines with their weapons and renders it at full detail then either plain FPP view doesn't push graphics limits or commander view is significantly slower.
FPS don't mean anything. 10 -> 20 FPS vs 100 -> 110 FPS. Use time per frame in miliseconds. These can be added and interpreted.
I've developed content for games. What I mean is I've done my own small scale non-definitive tests on LOD's vs no LOD's and noticed no tangible difference. Thanks for playing though.
So you're saying all the AAA companies and commercial engines that use LOD systems are wasting their time because you can't figure out how to code functional LODs? This thread is really taking fanboi-ism to a hilarious new level.
Some kind of LOD will be needed for commander view. If commander can see 10 fades, lots of structures and 10 rines with their weapons and renders it at full detail then either plain FPP view doesn't push graphics limits or commander view is significantly slower.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The commander's view isn't that wide. If there are 10 fades and 10 rines in a single room, then someone in first-person view could theoretically see them all at once too. And commanders don't need quite as high a framerate as players in the field anyway.
There is really no reason to draw far more triangles than pixels other than laziness.
Sure its a old engine with bsp system and the spark engine use other newer features but for the commander, LOD can be very usefull, he don't need the high poly models, i guess.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Half-Life is not a 'close combat' game in the same sense that NS is. NS2 (assuming it has roughly the same engagement distances as NS1) is far more close quarters than HL2's vistas. If you ever saw a 'vista' in NS it was probably out of a window at a skymap.
If they were gonna use LODs it would make a lot more sense for them to already be making them for the existing assets they have. You would want to have enough experience of integrating LODs into your art pipeline for your new engine that you were able to give very accurate estimates for your project management. It's also quicker to do LODs at the same time you're doing the high poly work. It makes little sense to revisit all your assets for the LODs at a later stage unless you have an 'oh shi son' moment towards the end of the project where you realise you absolutely have to have LODs despite planning not to have them, and I don't think Max is that kind of guy.
The reason there aren't LODs is most likely because something in their rendering tech is doing the work LODs would so they don't have to expend man hours on unneccessary asset creation. Networking LODs sounds interesting, it might not even be LODs in the conventional sense.
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEDKieM8xC8" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEDKieM8xC8</a>