<!--quoteo(post=1827956:date=Jan 28 2011, 03:33 AM:name=Cerebral)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cerebral @ Jan 28 2011, 03:33 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1827956"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't really agree with the tone of your argument but I kind of agree with the sentiment. It's not that I dislike the selected icons aesthetically, but I'm not sure how functional they will be "at a glance" during gameplay. I don't think the shapes and colors are distinct enough to quickly differentiate between them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Sorry about the tone, I was rather intoxicated at the moment of typing.
I've read it again, and I agree with myself though :p
<!--quoteo(post=1827145:date=Jan 25 2011, 05:40 PM:name=Runteh)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Runteh @ Jan 25 2011, 05:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1827145"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just finished off some of the adjustments from Trigger's comments, and submitting. Then off to play some 162! :D
<img src="http://img689.imageshack.us/img689/9650/128x128.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Can we get *.PSD file to little tweak them to self and convert indo DDS as custom icons for future as Fraya mention ?
Me personally will: <!--c1--><div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><!--ec1-->- add '|-C' like attachments onto MAC's icon - change dead icons to Skull like look - Instead of bars representing upgrades, would be better to use C&C like arrows (first on image)<!--c2--></div><!--ec2--> <img src="http://img600.imageshack.us/img600/5622/myind1.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />
I'm interested in seeing how everyone's submissions will look once actually implemented in the game. Mockups can only get you so far, really. What i'm trying to say is have the patience to see them working before being so judgemental guys. :P
<!--quoteo(post=1828046:date=Jan 28 2011, 09:12 AM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Jan 28 2011, 09:12 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1828046"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Would it be too much to ask to have an in-game option for changing the icon set, for people who prefer one over another?
I definitely prefer Runteh's, and xVisions' second.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, i just feel their style is a bit more easy on the eyes, im not a fan of the slightly dirty pixel look but well done Supernorn, they're good regardless.
<!--quoteo(post=1828054:date=Jan 28 2011, 09:40 AM:name=xVisions)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xVisions @ Jan 28 2011, 09:40 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1828054"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I will finish them and put them up when minimap is implemented. Chipping at waypoint stuff right now.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That would be cool, hopefully everyone who entered will finish them off in the right format and update as necessary, its good to hear we will be able to change them in the future!
Agree that they're not great for spotting things at a glance but for me <!--quoteo(post=1827943:date=Jan 28 2011, 03:13 AM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flayra @ Jan 28 2011, 03:13 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1827943"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->P.S. If you prefer someone else's icons, it should be quite easy for you to replace them in the future (once our mod architecture is all fully functional).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> is all that needed to be said.
As we're on the subject of icons i just remembered something, my steam games list doesn't have an icon for NS2, also if i create a shortcut from steam it's missing an icon image, everything is fine otherwise and the .exe itself has one so i don't know whats wrong, is it the same for everyone?
Grats, Supernorn! I'll admit I'm a little concerned about being able to differentiate between things at a glance, and I'm worried that so many icons on the map are going to clutter it. However, might as well try it out, right? :P
Now that I have debugged, decrypted, decoded, decolorized, and finally finalized my minimal minimap icons, I submit the current layout for public viewing. <img src="http://img838.imageshack.us/img838/3127/minisg.png" border="0" class="linked-image" /> I would congratulate suppernorm but I'm afraid after minimal debate this will be in the final cut of the game. Congrats, me!
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
<!--quoteo(post=1828055:date=Jan 28 2011, 01:40 AM:name=BluePhish)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BluePhish @ Jan 28 2011, 01:40 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1828055"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The icons shold be more tron-like like the map imo :-\<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
??... this isnt tron? nothing in the game is tron like? are you referring to the neon blue that is also used on the armory menus etc? not to be rude, but, think about that for a second.. if the icons are neon blue and the map is neon blue.... or if you mean not color but tron shapes then i really have no idea what you're referring to lol. i cant imagine "Tron shapes" or how those could represent any elements of the game? idk maybe i'm just not getting your point.
in any case: congrats supernorn! and i'm glad you won. Your icons are easiest to read by a long shot - no interpretation or learning curve required, well done! to everyone else: dont worry others are dying to use yours as well :)
It's consistent with the NS1 minimap icons. Mostly I'm not understanding the critiques regarding instant readability, as everything looks as it actually does from a top down perspective. Marines are marines, you aren't left to guess what arrows are supposed to be. Either way, I've had some notes and a few small things have been changed around including the scale of a couple of the icons. :)
Right, but he was talking about consistency with the NS2 graphical (interface) theme. Also, 'you aren't left to guess what arrows are supposed to be' is not really a fair thing to say. In fact, it's the opposite. In most FPS games with a minimap, players are representented as circles with arrows, or something of the sort; they are not represented as an overhead thumbnail of themselves. The arrow denotes a player with a direction, this is generally accepted, and very quick and easy to 'read'. I find it strange that you haven't encountered this kind of minimap player icon implementation before. The 'readability' concern with yours is that there is actually too much detail in each icon (again, it's a thumbnail rather than a symbol), it is quite hard to differentiate icons from one another especially when grouped together, and the icons don't really have strongly unique or identifiable silhouettes. xVisions and Runteh have taken more of a 'symbol' approach (less is more) which I personally think works very well, while you have taken more of a thumbnail appraoch.
<!--quoteo(post=1828432:date=Jan 29 2011, 03:02 PM:name=Supernorn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Supernorn @ Jan 29 2011, 03:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1828432"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's consistent with the NS1 minimap icons. Mostly I'm not understanding the critiques regarding instant readability, as everything looks as it actually does from a top down perspective. Marines are marines, you aren't left to guess what arrows are supposed to be. Either way, I've had some notes and a few small things have been changed around including the scale of a couple of the icons. :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Whilst I am not bothered that yours were picked instead if mine, I think there are issues that you and UWE are not seeing. Especially from the perspective of new players. I as many others just want what is best of the game, and there are things that could change.
Firstly, play a proper game of NS2 whilst using the minimap. Take into context that this something that you want to flick up and instantly read what is going on. With its current introduction (with limited icons) it actually takes time to orientate where I am. Sometimes I have to stop in a corner and take time to see what is what.
This is a worst case scenario, and you want to be spending as little time as possible doing it. For competitive play this is a big no no.
The question is, how can you make this as efficient as possible and what are the important things you are trying to communicate within (lets say) 3 seconds?
# You need to know your location. # You need to know what is within your location. # Then you'll probably want to see what is going on 'globally' over the map.
When looking globally over the map you want to know.
# The buildings. # The upgrade level. # What has changed since last time you looked? (Most important).
From a functional level, if we look at your icons there are several issues in my mind. Silhouette is too similar for several of the icons, most specifically the armoury(3) + extractor and marines. I also find with yours that because the level of detail is higher, my eyes have to 'drag themselves' around a lot more to identify individual ones in mass than the simple silhouette style that I have gone for.
Let us consider this at a more detailed level.
What is the player having to remember, and more specifically new players?
# Firstly, you have to remember which building is which level (There is room for error with the armoury, and now there are two more icons to remember). # New players could mistake each one for a different building. # No one views the buildings from that angle (except the commander). # The importance of the building is not highlighted for players. (Highlighting is favourable) # Marines have an advantage - there is only a tiny difference between the marine icons.
Now, I know you have labellings on your other buildings. But there are issues with this.
# They are not highlighted well. # They are very small - not everyone has terrific eyesight. # Identifying what has changed will take more time and 'eye searching'.
I think the thing that has been forgotten by a lot of people, is that whilst things look 'great' as a work of art, they don't necessarily work well as a piece of 'design'.
For instance, you don't see on a highway the icons that make up the '100s' of symbols having high levels of detail within them. They are representational and unique from one another in silhouette. There should be no rooms for your brain to go 'is that this, or that' before you hit a speed bump at 6 mph, which is why they are simple and unique.
The importance is in their 'communicating their meaning', not whether they 'look good' necessarily.
This is a game, so there is room for the more artistic to shine through, which is a great. But I think the compromise has been taken on the wrong line in this case.
With people coming on these forums and stating "are there walk throughs, I don't understand how to play" you would have thought that in such a complex game like this that UWE would be pushing understanding in areas that really need it and together provide learning and understanding.
Any good designer will tell you 'it is in the details', and it is these complexities that you may or may not have bothered reading about in this large post that make the difference between something good and something bad. My icons are designed to be 100% effective in what they communicate these things as quickly as possible, whilst trying to preserve some of that artistic merit.
They are all unique, the important ones communicate themselves effectively. Marines and Aliens have different visual styles, the death icons do also (so you know exactly when a death has occurred, alien or marine) and you will tell when a big 1 turns to a big 2 on the armoury, hive or command stations.
It is all well and good when you look at these icons on a level that doesn't involve the intensity of a clan match (I know how this can be, because I was in one of the best teams in the UK about 4/5 years ago) and having 40 of them on screen.
It will be interesting to see how effective they are when they are actually in game, because it (whether effective or not) will be apparent then. But otherwise, you can all ###### and moan at me for being a bad loser or something. But this is just how I see it, and I think it is a fairly accurate assessment.
EDIT: Oh by the way, i'm not saying I think yours are bad in the artistic sense. I think they look great. But I don't think they are necessarily effective for what they are supposed to be doing.
EDIT 2: Also, I don't think mine are perfect in any form. There are things that need more work, and artistical taste is just that. There are no right answers.
Supernorns where picked because they have the <u>closest</u> <-- (important word there to aknowledge..) relation to ns1 icons that we know worked well before. Just because his was picked does not mean they are going in exactly as they are presented here in their first revisions on this forum. Cory is working with supernorn to make the icons more clear, so he is taking his notes and making the changes <i>(Now he will discover the mighty brutality of Cory's vision of perfection in everything</i> :D ) Also if you think <u>for example</u> his shades of red and green are dislikeable in the images, the icons are going in game in grey scale form to be colorised by the game code.
Good post, i think perhaps the devs might have been a bit quick to choose, while its good we can mod them i think it would be much better to have an option between the two styles, call it modern and classic, that way everyone wins?
IeptBarakatThe most difficult name to speak ingame.Join Date: 2009-07-10Member: 68107Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow
edited January 2011
<!--quoteo(post=1828463:date=Jan 29 2011, 12:18 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Jan 29 2011, 12:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1828463"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Wait supernorn's are in red AND green?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1828448:date=Jan 29 2011, 11:31 AM:name=SgtBarlow)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SgtBarlow @ Jan 29 2011, 11:31 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1828448"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also if you think <u>for example</u> his shades of red and green are dislikeable in the images, the icons are going in game in grey scale form to be colorised by the game code.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Like I said, they are not perfect. But 'reading' (in terms of identification) becomes a lot less important when.
# The minimap tells a story that you can learn from. # They are unique in appearance. # Once you understand them they are easy to identify.
The map is dynamic and tells a story in context to your FPS experience. Once you encounter something (such as whip) and you look on the map, you know what it is and what it relates to - and forever more. So what each icon represents to the player is not actually matter too much. Obviously to a degree, I'm not talking using skulks for marines and marines for skulks.
As for the prototype module, I didn't know. But that could change quite easily.
The point being, is that in terms of considered design that communicates effectively and quickly all you have to do is look at references from the real world in situations that, say, require speed in communicating their meaning.
<!--quoteo(post=1828467:date=Jan 29 2011, 05:29 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Jan 29 2011, 05:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1828467"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->They definitely need the colours changing because I can't even tell that there are two colours.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->About 8 percent of males, but only 0.5 percent of females, are color blind in some way or another.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes I am well aware that I am colourblind but that is why you design interfaces which don't cause problems for people with colourblindness. For example colourblind people are perfectly capable of reading differences in brightness, so you can make one colour brighter than the other and even someone with purely greyscale vision would be able to see the difference. You can also make proper silhouettes and use highly saturated colours rather than dull ones.
I don't have problems with most interfaces because they're developed by proper interface designers who think about that sort of thing.
I don't have difficulty with left4dead normally so I wouldn't know. Like I said in general simply designing a good interface negates the need for colourblind specific changes.
Well, I am a designer but not specifically a UI designer. So I was trying to come from that sort of angle. The colours were in the brief, please don't hurt me Chris! :(
Comments
Sorry about the tone, I was rather intoxicated at the moment of typing.
I've read it again, and I agree with myself though :p
<img src="http://img705.imageshack.us/img705/8733/256x256.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
<img src="http://img689.imageshack.us/img689/9650/128x128.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Can we get *.PSD file to little tweak them to self and convert indo DDS as custom icons for future as Fraya mention ?
Me personally will:
<!--c1--><div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><!--ec1-->- add '|-C' like attachments onto MAC's icon
- change dead icons to Skull like look
- Instead of bars representing upgrades, would be better to use C&C like arrows (first on image)<!--c2--></div><!--ec2-->
<img src="http://img600.imageshack.us/img600/5622/myind1.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Congrats to Supernorn by the way.
I definitely prefer Runteh's, and xVisions' second.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, i just feel their style is a bit more easy on the eyes, im not a fan of the slightly dirty pixel look but well done Supernorn, they're good regardless.
<!--quoteo(post=1828054:date=Jan 28 2011, 09:40 AM:name=xVisions)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xVisions @ Jan 28 2011, 09:40 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1828054"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I will finish them and put them up when minimap is implemented. Chipping at waypoint stuff right now.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That would be cool, hopefully everyone who entered will finish them off in the right format and update as necessary, its good to hear we will be able to change them in the future!
<!--quoteo(post=1827943:date=Jan 28 2011, 03:13 AM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flayra @ Jan 28 2011, 03:13 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1827943"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->P.S. If you prefer someone else's icons, it should be quite easy for you to replace them in the future (once our mod architecture is all fully functional).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
is all that needed to be said.
However, I always assumed that they'd put it in when it hits the steam store, and no sooner.
However, I always assumed that they'd put it in when it hits the steam store, and no sooner.
<img src="http://img838.imageshack.us/img838/3127/minisg.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />
I would congratulate suppernorm but I'm afraid after minimal debate this will be in the final cut of the game. Congrats, me!
??... this isnt tron?
nothing in the game is tron like?
are you referring to the neon blue that is also used on the armory menus etc?
not to be rude, but, think about that for a second..
if the icons are neon blue and the map is neon blue....
or if you mean not color but tron shapes then i really have no idea what you're referring to lol.
i cant imagine "Tron shapes" or how those could represent any elements of the game?
idk maybe i'm just not getting your point.
in any case: congrats supernorn! and i'm glad you won. Your icons are easiest to read by a long shot - no interpretation or learning curve required, well done!
to everyone else: dont worry others are dying to use yours as well :)
Also, 'you aren't left to guess what arrows are supposed to be' is not really a fair thing to say. In fact, it's the opposite. In most FPS games with a minimap, players are representented as circles with arrows, or something of the sort; they are not represented as an overhead thumbnail of themselves. The arrow denotes a player with a direction, this is generally accepted, and very quick and easy to 'read'. I find it strange that you haven't encountered this kind of minimap player icon implementation before.
The 'readability' concern with yours is that there is actually too much detail in each icon (again, it's a thumbnail rather than a symbol), it is quite hard to differentiate icons from one another especially when grouped together, and the icons don't really have strongly unique or identifiable silhouettes. xVisions and Runteh have taken more of a 'symbol' approach (less is more) which I personally think works very well, while you have taken more of a thumbnail appraoch.
Whilst I am not bothered that yours were picked instead if mine, I think there are issues that you and UWE are not seeing. Especially from the perspective of new players. I as many others just want what is best of the game, and there are things that could change.
Firstly, play a proper game of NS2 whilst using the minimap. Take into context that this something that you want to flick up and instantly read what is going on. With its current introduction (with limited icons) it actually takes time to orientate where I am. Sometimes I have to stop in a corner and take time to see what is what.
This is a worst case scenario, and you want to be spending as little time as possible doing it. For competitive play this is a big no no.
The question is, how can you make this as efficient as possible and what are the important things you are trying to communicate within (lets say) 3 seconds?
# You need to know your location.
# You need to know what is within your location.
# Then you'll probably want to see what is going on 'globally' over the map.
When looking globally over the map you want to know.
# The buildings.
# The upgrade level.
# What has changed since last time you looked? (Most important).
<img src="http://blackmage.org/supernorn/bigmockfinal.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
From a functional level, if we look at your icons there are several issues in my mind. Silhouette is too similar for several of the icons, most specifically the armoury(3) + extractor and marines. I also find with yours that because the level of detail is higher, my eyes have to 'drag themselves' around a lot more to identify individual ones in mass than the simple silhouette style that I have gone for.
Let us consider this at a more detailed level.
What is the player having to remember, and more specifically new players?
# Firstly, you have to remember which building is which level (There is room for error with the armoury, and now there are two more icons to remember).
# New players could mistake each one for a different building.
# No one views the buildings from that angle (except the commander).
# The importance of the building is not highlighted for players. (Highlighting is favourable)
# Marines have an advantage - there is only a tiny difference between the marine icons.
Now, I know you have labellings on your other buildings. But there are issues with this.
# They are not highlighted well.
# They are very small - not everyone has terrific eyesight.
# Identifying what has changed will take more time and 'eye searching'.
I think the thing that has been forgotten by a lot of people, is that whilst things look 'great' as a work of art, they don't necessarily work well as a piece of 'design'.
For instance, you don't see on a highway the icons that make up the '100s' of symbols having high levels of detail within them. They are representational and unique from one another in silhouette. There should be no rooms for your brain to go 'is that this, or that' before you hit a speed bump at 6 mph, which is why they are simple and unique.
The importance is in their 'communicating their meaning', not whether they 'look good' necessarily.
This is a game, so there is room for the more artistic to shine through, which is a great. But I think the compromise has been taken on the wrong line in this case.
With people coming on these forums and stating "are there walk throughs, I don't understand how to play" you would have thought that in such a complex game like this that UWE would be pushing understanding in areas that really need it and together provide learning and understanding.
Any good designer will tell you 'it is in the details', and it is these complexities that you may or may not have bothered reading about in this large post that make the difference between something good and something bad. My icons are designed to be 100% effective in what they communicate these things as quickly as possible, whilst trying to preserve some of that artistic merit.
<img src="http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/2888/mockupp.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
They are all unique, the important ones communicate themselves effectively. Marines and Aliens have different visual styles, the death icons do also (so you know exactly when a death has occurred, alien or marine) and you will tell when a big 1 turns to a big 2 on the armoury, hive or command stations.
It is all well and good when you look at these icons on a level that doesn't involve the intensity of a clan match (I know how this can be, because I was in one of the best teams in the UK about 4/5 years ago) and having 40 of them on screen.
It will be interesting to see how effective they are when they are actually in game, because it (whether effective or not) will be apparent then. But otherwise, you can all ###### and moan at me for being a bad loser or something. But this is just how I see it, and I think it is a fairly accurate assessment.
EDIT: Oh by the way, i'm not saying I think yours are bad in the artistic sense. I think they look great. But I don't think they are necessarily effective for what they are supposed to be doing.
EDIT 2: Also, I don't think mine are perfect in any form. There are things that need more work, and artistical taste is just that. There are no right answers.
Just because his was picked does not mean they are going in exactly as they are presented here in their first revisions on this forum.
Cory is working with supernorn to make the icons more clear, so he is taking his notes and making the changes <i>(Now he will discover the mighty brutality of Cory's vision of perfection in everything</i> :D )
Also if you think <u>for example</u> his shades of red and green are dislikeable in the images, the icons are going in game in grey scale form to be colorised by the game code.
<!--quoteo(post=1828448:date=Jan 29 2011, 11:31 AM:name=SgtBarlow)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SgtBarlow @ Jan 29 2011, 11:31 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1828448"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also if you think <u>for example</u> his shades of red and green are dislikeable in the images, the icons are going in game in grey scale form to be colorised by the game code.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
# The minimap tells a story that you can learn from.
# They are unique in appearance.
# Once you understand them they are easy to identify.
The map is dynamic and tells a story in context to your FPS experience. Once you encounter something (such as whip) and you look on the map, you know what it is and what it relates to - and forever more. So what each icon represents to the player is not actually matter too much. Obviously to a degree, I'm not talking using skulks for marines and marines for skulks.
As for the prototype module, I didn't know. But that could change quite easily.
The point being, is that in terms of considered design that communicates effectively and quickly all you have to do is look at references from the real world in situations that, say, require speed in communicating their meaning.
<img src="http://www.co1m.com/_myVirDir/content/images/sites/basic/road-signcouk/10449.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
(P.s This was a reply to a post above that was edited)
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_blindness" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_blindness</a>
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->About 8 percent of males, but only 0.5 percent of females, are color blind in some way or another.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Unlucky Chris :(
I don't have problems with most interfaces because they're developed by proper interface designers who think about that sort of thing.