Gold Nodes & Tech Points
slayer20
Killed a man once. Join Date: 2007-12-13 Member: 63157Members, Reinforced - Shadow
Killed a man once. Join Date: 2007-12-13 Member: 63157Members, Reinforced - Shadow
<div class="IPBDescription">bling bling</div>This was suggested in another thread...
Mappers would specify a node in the map to be a "Gold" Node. It's goal is to act as a double res node, but better. (see posts below)
Gold Resource Towers
+Gives 2 Resources for both Commanders and Players every <b>10 seconds</b>. (Normal Resource intake is 1 every 12 seconds)
-Longer build time
=More health?
Thoughts on this? Changes? Suggestions?
Edit: Removed Gold tech suggestion, as well as changed the Gold Node suggestion
Mappers would specify a node in the map to be a "Gold" Node. It's goal is to act as a double res node, but better. (see posts below)
Gold Resource Towers
+Gives 2 Resources for both Commanders and Players every <b>10 seconds</b>. (Normal Resource intake is 1 every 12 seconds)
-Longer build time
=More health?
Thoughts on this? Changes? Suggestions?
Edit: Removed Gold tech suggestion, as well as changed the Gold Node suggestion
Comments
Successful two tier resource systems are based on simple risk/reward tradeoffs. For example, SCII gold minerals are always riskier to secure, but reward the player for taking that risk should they be secured. That reward is simple: More resources.
This idea has no such risk/reward tradeoff, and is extremely complex.
The gold tech point is actually sounding like a bad idea overall.
The gold node though sounds fine to me. Once players spotted the node, both teams would probably be all over it. And as you said, if they can secure the area, they are rewarded for it. Of course, resource gain and production might need to be changed.
Its like a random double res somewhere on the map, only with a chance to spawn next to your base.
No.
Since the random thing wouldn't really work out, then the gold node could be an alternative for mappers instead of placing two nodes in one room?
Keep the longer build time, and drop everything else? Maybe give it some extra health too?
Allow mappers to designate which node they want in their map to be a gold node, which would usually be the middle node, if the mapper even wants one that is.
Don't say things like "What if every node on the map is gold?" So what if they are? It'd be just like any other game except everyone would get +2 and the game would probably go by faster. And no one would want to play a map where all the gold nodes are located on one team's side, that should be common sense.
It'd have to be like 2 res every 10 seconds to make it actually worth something. Because if you just had it at 2 res every 12 seconds, that's the exact same thing as 2 normal resource towers, which defeats the purpose of the gold node.
Mappers can place high-yield nodes in strategic locations as they see fit, in similar fashion to Starcraft 2 gold minerals. Or they can get creative, and even place low-yield (< 1.0 of normal) double res in low risk areas, that take longer to pay off (due to higher cost).
It is good to create map objects with variable attributes that allow a greater amount of flexibility for creative mappers.
Right now, res gathering rate is set by the resource towers. I think everyone would like to see it affected by the resource node as well.
Since the random thing wouldn't really work out, then the gold node could be an alternative for mappers instead of placing two nodes in one room?
Keep the longer build time, and drop everything else? Maybe give it some extra health too?
Allow mappers to designate which node they want in their map to be a gold node, which would usually be the middle node, if the mapper even wants one that is.
Don't say things like "What if every node on the map is gold?" So what if they are? It'd be just like any other game except everyone would get +2 and the game would probably go by faster. And no one would want to play a map where all the gold nodes are located on one team's side, that should be common sense.
It'd have to be like 2 res every 10 seconds to make it actually worth something. Because if you just had it at 2 res every 12 seconds, that's the exact same thing as 2 normal resource towers, which defeats the purpose of the gold node.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So it outputs double res, takes longer to build and has more health.
How is that different from two extractors next to each other?
2 res every 10 as opposed to 12 seconds is like having an additional 1/6th of a refinery, which is to say entirely unnoticeable.
<!--quoteo(post=1828051:date=Jan 28 2011, 09:32 AM:name=twiliteblue)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (twiliteblue @ Jan 28 2011, 09:32 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1828051"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Right now, res gathering rate is set by the resource towers. I think everyone would like to see it affected by the resource node as well.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No actually, I would prefer it to be the same for all nodes. That keeps it consistent and you know how many nodes you need to get good income, on any map.
No to them being randomized. Let the mapper make high risk/high reward res nodes at appropriate locations.
I'd say the mid res node in the tram tunnel on ns2_tram would be a good candidate as a double res node.
How is that different from two extractors next to each other?
2 res every 10 as opposed to 12 seconds is like having an additional 1/6th of a refinery, which is to say entirely unnoticeable.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If one team has two normal nodes, and the other team has one gold node, then the team with the gold node would produce res faster, and it would be noticeable.
Let's say each team wants 20 resources. Take the time it takes to gain resources, and divide by how many nodes you have. Then, take that number and times it by the amount of resources you want (in this case 20) to know how long it'll take to obtain those resources.
Team 1 has two normal nodes, and Team 2 has the gold node.
Team 1: 12 seconds per resource / 2 resources gained = 6
6 * 20 resources wanted = <b>120 seconds total</b>
Team 2: 10 seconds per resource / 2 resources gained = 5
5 * 20 resources wanted = <b>100 seconds total</b>
I don't know about you, but I think 20 seconds could make a big difference in a game.
And this is just with two normal nodes and one gold node. If Team 1 gained one extra node, they would start making more than Team 2. It would take Team 1 80 seconds to gain 20 resources, while Team 2 takes 100 seconds.
If you give Team 2 a normal node though, then they are the top of the natural selection. (see what I did there?)
Take the gold node (10 seconds / 2 res = <u>5</u>) and add the normal node (12 seconds / 1 res = <u>12</u>) which gives you 17. Take 17 and divide it by 2 to get the average, which is 8.5. Now take 8.5 and divide it by how much res you're getting (in this case it would be 3, since you have 2 res coming from the gold node and 1 coming from the normal node). Doing this gives you 2.8. And last, take 2.8 times the amount of resources you want (in this case 20) and it'll give you the time it'll take to produce that many resources, which would be 56 seconds.
Now if you do the same thing but with 3 normal nodes, you would do 12 seconds / 3 res = 4. 4 * 20 = 80 seconds.
If that's not doing it for you, then let me give an example of it in-game.
Let's say the Alien Team has the gold node and the Marine Team has two normal nodes. I honestly can't remember how much structures or upgrades cost off the top of my head, but let's say for this example, a Crag costs 20 resources and the Armory costs 20 resources.
Looking at the math above, the Aliens could have a Crag dropped 20 seconds before the Marines are able to drop their Armory. I'm not sure how long it takes for a Crag to be built, but let's say it takes like 10 seconds. Let's say the Aliens put the Crag in some place where the Alien and Marine team were going at it. For 10 seconds, the Aliens would be getting the buff since they have the Crag which can regenerate their health.
So, the 10 seconds have passed and Marines finally dropped their Armory. So now it's an even fight. Both teams have some source that can heal them/supply them with ammo (Yes I do realize that the Commander can drop medpacks, but let's assume he's not going to do that).
Now let's say that Armor 1 for both teams costs 10 resources, and takes 10 seconds to upgrade.
Time line:
100s = Dropped Crag -> 110s = Crag Built -> 120s = Dropped Armory -> 130s = Armory Built -> 150s = Crag Armor 1 researching -> 160s = Crag Armor 1 Researched -> 180s = Marine Armor 1 researching -> 190s = Marine Armor 1 Researched...
If you continue that time line, the Marines would fall behind on melee and weapon upgrades.
Natural Selection is all about who can out-tech who. Of course, this example doesn't factor in things like res for kills or how skilled the players are.
Now, this can all be flipped around if the Marines obtain a 3rd resource node. Let's make Armor 2 cost 20 res, and Armor 3 cost 30. Let's say the resource tower costs 15 res.
Time line:
90s = Marine node dropped -> 100s = Dropped Crag / Marine Node Built -> 110s = Crag Built -> 150s = Crag Armor 1 researching -> 160s = Crag Armor 1 Researched -> 180s = Armory Dropped -> 190s = Armory Built -> 220s = Marine Armor 1 researching -> 230s = Marine Armor 1 Researched -> 250s = Crag Armor 2 researching -> 260s = Crag Armor 2 Researched -> 270s = Marine Weapon 1 researching -> 280s = Marine Weapon 1 Researched -> 350s = Marine Weapon 2 researching -> 360s = Marine Weapon 2 Researched -> 400s = Crag Armor 3 researching -> 410s = Crag Armor 3 Researched -> 430s = Marine Armor 2 researching -> 440s = Marine Armor 2 Researched -> 500s = Whip Dropped -> 510s = Whip Built -> 550s = Marine Wps 3 / Alien Melee 1 researching -> 560s = Marine Wps 3 / Alien Melee 1 Researched -> 650s = Alien Melee 2 researching -> 660s = Alien Melee 2 researched -> 670s = Marine Armor 3 researching -> 680s = Marine Armor 3 Researched -> 800s = Alien Melee 3 researching -> 810s = Alien Melee 3 Researched...
To simplify that time line, the Marines were fully upgraded after 680 seconds (about 11 minutes), while the Aliens weren't fully upgraded until <i>810 seconds</i> (about 13-14 minutes).
It took Aliens 130 seconds (about 2 minutes) more to be fully upgraded. Going 2 minutes without any upgrades can be brutal.
This is assuming both teams start at 0 resources, with the Marine Team having 2 nodes and the Alien Team having 1 gold node. The top time line shows that having two normal nodes up against a gold node would not match in the entire game.
But putting 3 nodes up against a gold node shows that the Team with 3 nodes would start to out-tech the other team mid to late game. And this is showing that the Marine Team had to drop the 3rd node. If they didn't, they would have had an armory dropped at 80 seconds.
That's all I can post for now. I hope what I'm saying makes some sense...I spent a very long time writing this post :V
I guess the only loss is for aliens, who consume a drifter for each building.
I support double res nodes if the res tower is kept the same; have a couple points per map, and those points would obviously be more important to take and hold than a standard res node. But it'll have the same difficulty of taking and holding a single res node tower, so fighting will be more concentrated in those areas.
Mappers probably shouldn't have any options between single res and double res, because:
1) it would unstandardise maps
2) it would require a re-write of the code to read from mapper-placed variables, as well as necessarily maintaining the currently clumsy and cumbersome individual tick rate + calculations for each res tower.
I guess the only loss is for aliens, who consume a drifter for each building.
I support double res nodes if the res tower is kept the same; have a couple points per map, and those points would obviously be more important to take and hold than a standard res node. But it'll have the same difficulty of taking and holding a single res node tower, so fighting will be more concentrated in those areas.
Mappers probably shouldn't have any options between single res and double res, because:
1) it would unstandardise maps
2) it would require a re-write of the code to read from mapper-placed variables, as well as necessarily maintaining the currently clumsy and cumbersome individual tick rate + calculations for each res tower.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I never said that it costs twice as much, nor that it takes twice as long to build. I did say that it would take longer to build, but that doesn't mean twice as long. Same thing for the HP.
I explained the resource thing in a couple posts up. It produces twice as much resources, but at a faster rate.
I also posted how to add the gold node rates with normal nodes. As for the "clumsy and cumbersome" tick rate, that stuff will most likely be fixed in the future, so saying such a thing is pointless.
On the other hand, if you have a set of standards (and standards are good), you can easily account for that in the code, by adding another set of 'states' for the double res nodes, and/or the gold nodes.
I'm probably going about this the wrong way, but to me, it seems easy to understand how it would work with both the fixed rate and the "to each its own" rate.
Fixed rate (One gold node + One normal node. Top row is time, bottom is res gained):
<img src="http://filesmelt.com/dl/fixedrate1.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Pretty simple to understand, right? It wouldn't matter if that gold node was built 3 seconds before the fixed rate time (which is every 10 seconds), it would still produce those 2 resources at the 10 second mark, and then proceed to produce resources normally.
So if you built the gold node at the 7 second fixed rate mark like this...
<img src="http://filesmelt.com/dl/fixedrate2.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />
It would produce it's +2 resources 3 seconds later, at the fixed 10 second mark.
If you're going by the "to each its own" method, it's essentially the same thing as a fixed rate. The only difference between a fixed rate and the "to each its own" method is that the later could take an additional 1-11 seconds to give that last resource you need. And it doesn't matter if you have multiple nodes giving res. It is impossible for a normal node to take longer than 12 seconds to give one resource.
If you build a node 5 seconds after a node that has just produced 1 res, then that recently built node will always produce 1 res 5 seconds slower than the first node.
<img src="http://filesmelt.com/dl/personalrate11.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />
This shows the "to each its own" method. At 17 seconds, a res tower was built 5 seconds after a resource tower produced 1 res. The first resource tower would then produce 1 res at the 24 second mark, while the second resource tower would produce it's first resource at the 29 second mark.
Going by the fixed rate, if you wanted 20 resources, it would take 120 seconds if you have two normal nodes.
If you go by the "to each its own" method, it would take between 120 and 131 seconds if you have two normal nodes.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->On the other hand, if you have a set of standards (and standards are good), you can easily account for that in the code, by adding another set of 'states' for the double res nodes, and/or the gold nodes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My argument was against <b>mapper-tweaked resource rates</b>.
Also, my argument is for a "common" resource flow (based on <b>quality</b> and <b>quantity</b> of towers), rather than <b>discrete</b> resource towers (which is what it is now); but it appears this isn't the thread I talked about it in.
^ I made a thread for this, because it's too much to paste in your thread, and I don't want to sidetrack it too much:
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=112578" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=112578</a>
I completely agree with you that the current method of gaining resources is bad. I would like to see it how you described or the way it was in NS.