I think the whole 'darkness' thing is a non argument. It is like saying 'how can we make this a level playground when every single system is different from the next' and I just don't think it is possible in the PC market.
There are always going to be better monitors, faster computers, better internet connections and or otherwise. People will do their best to find ways around this by stripping down the engine for every single console command they can find.
I think the main goal should be to appeal to the immersion of the game, and that is top priority for creating something atmospheric and scary.
Also, being that the lighting is dynamic it will not matter what gamma settings you have. If there is no light then there is nothing to be displayed then Gamma is useless.
It is like suggesting IR Goggles would work in a sealed room... they wouldn't, because there is literally no light around to bounce off surfaces.
I think as has been suggested knocking out the power nodes should work as is - but after 4/5 minutes the lighting just completely shuts off on battery power. So Marines can't mess with their settings, and are forced to use flash lights in these areas making for a much more interesting game.
Of course, the downside is that there will always be a light source coming from somewhere in a room, especially if it is full of glowing aliens.
The argument that darkness is perceived differently is a valid one when the rooms are not pitch black. If a room is pitch black then its darkness will be the same for all players, and when they turn on the flashlight the brightness should be more or less the same for everyone.
IMO the solution to having darkness part of a comptetitive game is by integrating it with pitch black rooms where the perception of light will be pretty much equal for everyone.
<!--quoteo(post=1831940:date=Feb 13 2011, 12:54 PM:name=Skiddywinks)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Skiddywinks @ Feb 13 2011, 12:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1831940"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->EDIT: Any more reasons? I have yet to hear a good one, but that doesn't mean they don't exist. If that is the best one that people can think of thought, then I find it a really poor reason.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Shocked I have to spell it out for you.
1) Monitors/computers set up properly can still have significant differences in gamma/darkness. If I say the maps are too dark and your reply is "set up your equipment properly" then you're completely ignorant.
2) A level playing field is essential for fair gameplay. The casual joe who logs 2 hours a week playing video games may not care but more dedicated players, especially those competing in online leagues, want consistency. By making NS2 this dark they're only opening up a doorway for people to artificially increase their brightness. This would give them an unfair advantage as the game would have been balanced around dark maps.
3) What is dark and light is completely subjective and a matter of personal opinion. Dark and bright environments should not be pushed on anyone. UWE could help themselves by creating maps that had decent lighting. This would allow the players that want darkness to decrease their brightness while the players who want bright environments to increase the setting.
4) You can still have <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=112720" target="_blank">maps that are well lit yet still create shadows and darkness in certain areas.</a>
Creating immerison in a multiplayer video game is near impossible. How immersed in NS2 are you going to be when it's your 20th time on a map, you have someone spamming a mic and another person bunny hopping across your screen? I'm not saying throw immerison to the wind but let's not destroy the game with overly dark maps in the name of immerison.
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=1831940:date=Feb 13 2011, 09:54 AM:name=Skiddywinks)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Skiddywinks @ Feb 13 2011, 09:54 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1831940"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So the developers are restricted from doing something awesome and immersive because people can't set their monitors correctly? What a bull###### excuse! All it needs is one of those screens in the options that allows you to adjust gamma, brightness etc with several images and the instruction "Adjust the brightness until the far left image disappears and the middle image is difficult to see".
As for the subjective argument that some people just don't like dark games, well, tough. I am assuming that what UWE mean to do is make the game darker, since it only makes sense given the work they have put in to the engine/dynamic lighting and giving us flashlights at all (sure, we had them in NS1, but that was a mod and so more or less came with them as standard. With NS2 they have clearly had to actually code them in on purpose, with it being a new engine and all).
Of course, if I am wrong and that was all a waste of time on UWE's part, well, tough for me instead I guess.
EDIT: Any more reasons? I have yet to hear a good one, but that doesn't mean they don't exist. If that is the best one that people can think of thought, then I find it a really poor reason.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because people don't like getting killed by something they can't see. Its the same logic as fighting invisible enemies. If you can't see your opponent, you can't actually fight back. At a minimum, any multiplayer game should give a player the chance to fight back before being killed.
The only caveat to this is if your invisible/hidden in darkness enemy is a bot that has been given some other significant disadvantage (which is why the darkness in HL2 worked well).
<!--quoteo(post=1831790:date=Feb 12 2011, 08:46 PM:name=Runteh)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Runteh @ Feb 12 2011, 08:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1831790"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I know it doesn't do that, that is the point. At the moment mappers have to fake this sort of thing, by creating reflected light sources behind pipes and what not. That is why the maps have over 1000 lights in them. Otherwise it would look really flat.
That is why you need different hues of red/yellow/etc to bring more life to the emergency lighting.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I disagree. I think mappers when creating white light need to make different hues toned down, rather than using "white light". Most mappers I know and the team will understand this and do this, when you use values of or close to 255 255 255, it doesn't look correct, I'll use your term flat too. Although you get blues, purples, browns, greens, yellows, reds, oranges etc. which are really subtle and can be and often are used as "white light" which make a level and area look less flat, as you say.
Adding this to the emergency lighting doesn't make sense to me. Aliens can use alien vision to see straight through it. Emergency lighting is probably there to hinder, not completely annihilate the chances of killing an alien as a marine. Yes, I agree the emergency lighting needs work on and it will get it, although for now it's in a good enough state to test with and get good feedback with. However I don't see how turning it in to a rave room will help.
I can't see anything in Spark that lets me set the emergency lighting level so far, so that's a no to that setting for someone who mentioned it.
<!--QuoteBegin-ScardyBob+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Darkness is a terrible multiplayer game feature. See Doom 3.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Total darkness like Doom 3 is a bad feature for most FPS games that is true. Although the absence of lighting in certain areas and in a certain way is not, that's what can help create atmosphere. Using dark spots and shadowing is very effective. It adds another element to the gameplay, a new mechanic which hardcore natural selection 1 players won't like but hey, it's just tough, we're moving away from the days of fullbright levels again.
If you're going to compare light in NS2, right now Tram is the only official release date map we can play. Trams marine start is to the T from the guidelines, a bright area to favour marines. The alien spawn is slightly darker, albeit not by much but as with the raised ceiling, there's a lot less light at the top (imo still too much) to favour aliens. It's the only place without a tech node, understandably, but maybe an accessible node could be produced for marines to keep up and aliens to take down close by outside the hive just to add the darker element to balance the area out, although I've digressed slightly.
At various points through tram, there is effective shadowing created across corridors to reduce light to help aliens, however the light is still there. There is less purposeful lighting being reflected on to the ceilings, to again, help the aliens and create that balance between aliens and marines. The vent work underneath the tram tunnel itself is well lit so you can see alien movement, another good little balance there. On the whole I find Tram is dingy, it's dim, but it's more or less balanced with making the fight areas better lit and the ambush areas lesser lit.
The argument of "it's too dark for him and too light for me" is easily and stupidly sorted. There's a reason a lot of games used to have a gradiant bar and asked you to set your brightness, with the words "If you can read this it's too bright" or similar written on the gradiant bar.
Did you guys play Zombie Panic Source? Of course it isn't competitive like NS2 will potentially become, but gameplay-, intensity and atmosphere-wise it would be lacking without total darkness in some places.
<!--quoteo(post=1831952:date=Feb 13 2011, 08:08 PM:name=SentrySteve)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SentrySteve @ Feb 13 2011, 08:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1831952"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Shocked I have to spell it out for you.
1) Monitors/computers set up properly can still have significant differences in gamma/darkness. If I say the maps are too dark and your reply is "set up your equipment properly" then you're completely ignorant.
2) A level playing field is essential for fair gameplay. The casual joe who logs 2 hours a week playing video games may not care but more dedicated players, especially those competing in online leagues, want consistency. By making NS2 this dark they're only opening up a doorway for people to artificially increase their brightness. This would give them an unfair advantage as the game would have been balanced around dark maps.
3) What is dark and light is completely subjective and a matter of personal opinion. Dark and bright environments should not be pushed on anyone. UWE could help themselves by creating maps that had decent lighting. This would allow the players that want darkness to decrease their brightness while the players who want bright environments to increase the setting.
4) You can still have <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=112720" target="_blank">maps that are well lit yet still create shadows and darkness in certain areas.</a>
Creating immerison in a multiplayer video game is near impossible. How immersed in NS2 are you going to be when it's your 20th time on a map, you have someone spamming a mic and another person bunny hopping across your screen? I'm not saying throw immerison to the wind but let's not destroy the game with overly dark maps in the name of immerison.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1) This is what calibration tools are for, so that no matter what hardware you are running, a certain baseline of brightness is the same across everything. If there is ANY difference, then the monitor is not set up properly. Your first sentence is absolutely incorrect. Besides, if you find a map too dark, use the frickin' flashlight.
2) If a league wants to pick up NS2, it is their responsibility to make sure everyone is on a fair playing level. UWE are looking to develop an awesome multiplayer game, and I feel, and I get the impression so do UWE, that darkness is going to be a factor in that. They can't just throw out something that, at the end of the day, will make the game more fun, just so that competitive leagues can play it.
Granted, the actual act of making sure no on is abusing their monitor settings would be nigh on impossible if playing online, but at a LAN or something similar, it is as easy as calibrating the monitors.
The game is for the fans who enjoy NS2 primarily, not people who want to make it a competition. I for sure will not be changing any settings, because I want to play the game and have fun, not necessarily beat someone on it.
3) So you are suggesting they make the game neutral, and people adjust their brightness to taste? What would be the point? If some people are going to do that anyway (which, no doubt they will), why not at least make it one or the other (obviously I'm on the side of having at least some really dark rooms), for those that will be playing it properly?
The real fans, and the ones that play it for fun, are going to play it as intended; are you really suggesting we get a half arsed attempt because some people are going to fiddle with brightness?
4) And likewise, the competitive gaming community could make maps that are as bright as you like, wherever you like. Why should the "for fun" gamers have to be the ones to put in the extra work, when there are for more of them? Properly implemented darkness would add a lot to the game, and I don't think it should be taken out by default to appease a few hardcore competitive gamers.
The skulk in particular relies on being sneaky and agile. It is hard to be sneaky when the darkest it gets is as bright as it gets, only red. Hiding above doorways only works so many times on so many people.
As for your arguments about immersion, way to go and pic the worst possible situation. For one, no one I have ever played with has spammed the mic. In fact, people either don't use it (which sucks), or use it very well and are friendly, helpful team players. And when that happens, the game kicks ass. As for bunny hopping, it won't be making a return.
Personally, with the lights out and my headphones on, I can seriously get in to the game. Sometimes it almost feels like a true life or death situation until a family member flicks on the lights or shouts me, snapping me out of it. The darkness isn't just for immersion, it is for gameplay and to change things up. I've harped on about the dynamic lighting going to waste otherwise, but it would also add dynamic <i>gameplay</i> with rooms being in any of a few states (emergency lighting, full lighting, pitch darkness), with (hopefully) several different methods of play being available for each situation.
So what if its the 20th time on a map if its different every time?
Your arguments seems to be based on developing the game around what the minority of people are going to do, and the worst case scenarios. This seems at odds with what the game is trying to do IMO.
<!--quoteo(post=1831956:date=Feb 13 2011, 08:38 PM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Feb 13 2011, 08:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1831956"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Because people don't like getting killed by something they can't see. Its the same logic as fighting invisible enemies. If you can't see your opponent, you can't actually fight back. At a minimum, any multiplayer game should give a player the chance to fight back before being killed.
The only caveat to this is if your invisible/hidden in darkness enemy is a bot that has been given some other significant disadvantage (which is why the darkness in HL2 worked well).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I can appreciate even being able to use a flashlight and gun would still not have been great in Doom 3, but in NS2 we are talking about a sqaud of marines (especially when it gets to the 16v16 level before release), each with a flashlight (and hopefully some other options in the future), covering each other and playing as a team. Anyone being killed by something they can't see is either a bad player (or, arguably, simple not looking at the enemey attacking him), or has bad team mates covering his back. Both of these situations occur in the light anyway, so what's the deal? How is this an argument against darkness?
Both situations give you a chance to fight back, and if the marines are playing properly, any aliens would still have a hard time jumping you, it just gives them more oppurtunity. Which it should, given that they have taken out the node.
<!--quoteo(post=1831908:date=Feb 13 2011, 01:48 PM:name=Runteh)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Runteh @ Feb 13 2011, 01:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1831908"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If a (perfect) red light hits a red object, depending on its properties it may actually reflect light that is more saturated. Therefore the reflected light will be a more saturated red.
If a (perfect) red light hits a (perfect) green object, it will not reflect colour because it is absorbed. Therefore appearing black or grey.
The problem is that filtered light is not perfect, you will still get other frequencies getting through and mixing occurring and producing different frequencies of colour.
Because the complexities of colour absorption, diffusion, reflection, etc can not be replicated by Spark, they need to be faked.
Therefore having a variety of red hues in areas that have emergency lighting would make a difference to the overall appearance of the effect. Given artistic license, it will make the emergency lighting more dramatic and the scene less flat.
It is similar to how listening to live music is different to recorded, because you have subtle harmonics that are cut out of the recording due to compression. They add to the overall sound, but you don't really notice them.
Light physics in a scene is infinitely more complex then 'the light is red' therefore 'every reflected source is the same red'.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I doubt however that you would really notice the difference. The lights are hitting stuff that is different colours already, it's still going to be 'oh god the room is really red' regardless of whether you put subtle differences of redness in it.
If you want a better way to do emergency lights, have the mapper set up two lighting configs for every room, both should look good, but one should be darker than the other and rely on small, low power lights to pick out key areas with the rest being a largely flat ambient wash to make the room visible. It should use a different, more dark colour scheme as well, with dull reds and blues and yellows being prevalent, but the ambient should be a very netural colour so you keep the colours of the objects in the room.
You aren't going to get good results by turning all the lights red, no matter how many shades of red you use. You need to build the lighting from the ground up for each setting, which means turning some lights off, turning others on, and picking a proper look for the lighting apart from 'same as before only entirely in shades of red.'
<!--quoteo(post=1831968:date=Feb 13 2011, 04:23 PM:name=Skiddywinks)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Skiddywinks @ Feb 13 2011, 04:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1831968"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Your arguments seems to be based on developing the game around what the minority of people are going to do, and the worst case scenarios. This seems at odds with what the game is trying to do IMO.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not making any "arguments." Trying to force darkness on a player is like trying to force a certain keyboard binding or sound setting. It's <i>stupid</i> as it's all personal preference.
You said you couldn't think of any reasons to not have darkness and no one was providing them. My points, one through four, in no way were based on "worst case scenarios" or "what the minority of players would do." Instead, they're obvious and perfect examples of why forcing darkness is a horrible decision. I don't understand why you even tried to refute them.
If you want a dark game throw your brightness down to nothing and enjoy it.
You make it sound like there is going to be no light. Honestly, what's wrong with 'properly' lit maps which aren't bright everywhere? What's wrong with shadowing and dark patches?
<!--quoteo(post=1832001:date=Feb 13 2011, 08:30 PM:name=Thaldarin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Thaldarin @ Feb 13 2011, 08:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1832001"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You make it sound like there is going to be no light. Honestly, what's wrong with 'properly' lit maps which aren't bright everywhere? What's wrong with shadowing and dark patches?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nothing. So far NS2 maps have been abnormally dark, especially custom maps, which is why I'm posting. If you notice, in my previous post I basically say the same thing.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You can still have maps that are well lit yet still create shadows and darkness in certain areas.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1831997:date=Feb 14 2011, 01:12 AM:name=SentrySteve)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SentrySteve @ Feb 14 2011, 01:12 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1831997"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm not making any "arguments." Trying to force darkness on a player is like trying to force a certain keyboard binding or sound setting. It's <i>stupid</i> as it's all personal preference.
You said you couldn't think of any reasons to not have darkness and no one was providing them. My points, one through four, in no way were based on "worst case scenarios" or "what the minority of players would do." Instead, they're obvious and perfect examples of why forcing darkness is a horrible decision. I don't understand why you even tried to refute them.
If you want a dark game throw your brightness down to nothing and enjoy it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's not the same as forcing a set key binding at all. I do agree that it is very subjective and down to personal preference as to how dark people like it, but that only shows that it is just as bad forcing it to be light all the time. The devs need to make a decision, and people are getting mixed messages. If they decide to keep the flashlight useless, and not truly make use of dynamic lighting, so be it. I won't be happy, but it is hardly enough to make me stop playing the game. I love it already. But the impression is the game is too light, based on what we know, and the majority of input on these threads (and judging from the number of threads I have seen on the topic), the majority of people seem to agree.
And what? "no one is providing them (reasons)"? You posted four! Granted, "arguments" was a little strong a word to describe your points, but they were definitely things you felt are reason enough to not make the game any darker. And they aren't "obvious" reasons at all, since we are talking about something subjective, as you mentioned, so by definition there is no set answer. Hence why I refuted them with <i>my</i> opinion.
I could just as easily say that if you want a light game, throw your brightness up to everything and enjoy it. You seem to think you are straight out right, and that I am wrong, when in fact we are discussing our opinions. If you want it bright, have it bright. But that is no reason to deny all the other players who want it darker being able to enjoy an amazing dynamic light system and more dynamic gameplay.
<!--quoteo(post=1832005:date=Feb 13 2011, 08:40 PM:name=Skiddywinks)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Skiddywinks @ Feb 13 2011, 08:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1832005"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->...but that only shows that it is just as bad forcing it to be light all the time...I could just as easily say that if you want a light game, throw your brightness up to everything and enjoy it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No way man. It's almost like...
<!--QuoteBegin-"Myself"+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE ("Myself")</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->3) What is dark and light is completely subjective and a matter of personal opinion. Dark and bright environments should not be pushed on anyone. UWE could help themselves by creating maps that had decent lighting. This would allow the players that want darkness to decrease their brightness while the players who want bright environments to increase the setting.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you remember your "rebuttal" to my "argument" was:
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So you are suggesting they make the game neutral, and people adjust their brightness to taste? What would be the point? If some people are going to do that anyway (which, no doubt they will), why not at least make it one or the other (obviously I'm on the side of having at least some really dark rooms), for those that will be playing it properly?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I wonder what changed from that to...
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you want it bright, have it bright. But that is no reason to deny all the other players who want it darker<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's almost like you're not even reading my words. I'm not the one trying to force a brightness setting on others. You are.
<!--quoteo(post=1832008:date=Feb 14 2011, 01:46 AM:name=SentrySteve)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SentrySteve @ Feb 14 2011, 01:46 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1832008"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's almost like you're not even reading my words. I'm not the only trying to force a brightness setting on anyone. You are.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wrong.
Keeping the game as light as it it reduces the <i>gameplay</i> features of the game. Sure, someone can whack the brightness down, but apart from the actual visual effect, nothing changes. If the developers make the darkness more of a gameplay feature, like I have been discussing (i.e. extra light sources like flares etc, making the game more dynamic, more options etc) then everyone benefits, and the people scared of the dark can still up the brightness and not be worse off.
I'm not forcing the brightness on anyone, since that isn't set by the game. The gameplay features are though, and the game will be worse for it if the darkness isn't made a gameplay point, and has things built around it. You seem to think I just want it dark for darknesses sake, but I actually want it because I think it will add to the game and make it much more interesting to <i>play</i>.
The visual aspect would just be cool and immersive, imo, but I don't expect everyone to agree with that part. But having less features is objectively less interesting.
<!--quoteo(post=1832015:date=Feb 13 2011, 09:19 PM:name=Skiddywinks)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Skiddywinks @ Feb 13 2011, 09:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1832015"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The gameplay features are though, and the game will be worse for it if the darkness isn't made a gameplay point, and has things built around it. You seem to think I just want it dark for darknesses sake, but I actually want it because I think it will add to the game and make it much more interesting to <i>play</i>.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And when players find a way to increase their brightness the balance of the game may be completely thrown off. That's why you don't balance with lighting in mind.
The point of darkness is to give people the ability to hide, but you can do that in other ways.
For example infestation could make the walls look similar to the aliens, regardless of light settings. You can add geometry which aliens can hide in, and you can give marines a vision enhancer which only works in powered rooms.
There are better ways to do it than darkness, more consistent ways that don't mess up with monitor brightness.
<!--quoteo(post=1832019:date=Feb 14 2011, 02:29 AM:name=SentrySteve)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SentrySteve @ Feb 14 2011, 02:29 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1832019"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And when players find a way to increase their brightness the balance of the game may be completely thrown off. That's why you don't balance with lighting in mind.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think that is reason enough to not make the game as good as it can be. If people get that arsed about it, they can get admins to ban. It shouldn't be too hard to tell when someone has stupidly high brightness settings.
I do appreciate the difficulty with this topic, don't get me wrong. I just don't think it is worth making the game, and all the players that will be playing it properly (myself included), suffer just because a few people are going to ruin it.
It's similar to people spawn camping and other such things. It's ######, but with the correct player/server mentality, when you do find someone trying their hardest to be a ###### you can sort out the issue.
Plus, there are ways to combat people cranking up the brightness. While the dark areas will obviously look light, the light areas will look stupidly bright, especially seeing as the marine spawn is typically brighter than other rooms. Plus, if UWE do implement flares or work lights (discussed in depth in a thread somewhere), those will be seriously too bright for comfort for abusers.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
<!--quoteo(post=1832019:date=Feb 13 2011, 06:29 PM:name=SentrySteve)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SentrySteve @ Feb 13 2011, 06:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1832019"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That's why you don't balance with lighting in mind.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<i><b> Then why have power nodes disable lighting at all?!!</b></i> and for that matter, as it currently stands there's no advantage to aliens for destroying a node! its more productive to just destroy an extractor, ensuring the rine's resources get wasted.
so lets re cap:
a) no purpose for an alien to currently disable a node as we can all agree the lighting difference is nothing b) why include flashlights if they are never needed? c) why write an engine from scratch basing it around dynamic lighting if its not used for gameplay? d) we're not necessarily saying the entire map be dark or even patches of it - just the gameplay aspect of disabling a node should have <b>PURPOSE</b>. its currently a waste of time and leaves the rine equipment in the room still easily useable e) people are going to exploit the gamma no matter what, hell, even your monitor can change brightness.. lets not get wrapped up in this issue.
<!--quoteo(post=1832041:date=Feb 14 2011, 02:50 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Feb 14 2011, 02:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1832041"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><i><b> Then why have power nodes disable lighting at all?!!</b></i> and for that matter, as it currently stands there's no advantage to aliens for destroying a node! its more productive to just destroy an extractor, ensuring the rine's resources get wasted.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The advantage of destroying power nodes is to disable marine stuctures in the area.
I don't think increased darkness is the best way to take advantage of dynamic lighting. It sounds like you want to play a different game. Maybe someone could make a "hide and seek in the dark" mod?
I don't know how anyone can say it's currently too dark. It's definitely too bright when the emergency lights switch on, such that there was no point to the darkness to begin with. I personally don't care for the power nodes disabling lighting feature, it's supposed to add to the artistic atmosphere but honestly it looks bland and hurts my eyes. Emergency lighting / darkness from the power going out isn't the only application of dynamic lighting in the game; I imagine the hive and drifters should glow, and I know the flamethrower does produce light. Power nodes can disable marine electronics, that's fine, but unless we have a better application of 'the power going out', there's not much point to the lights going out or emergency lighting. Whatever you do, change the colour from red. It sounds good in theory, but looks terrible in practice.
I get that darkness isn't good for a competitive multiplayer game where everyone sees everyone and people don't use ambush tactics and skill is very much determined on the 1v1 scale, but I think it's a waste of potential not to have darkness and shadows with such an awesome dynamic lighting effect. Many people are simply looking at darkness as just a cosmetic effect that is a hindrance, rather than a potential gameplay element which also looks good. Of course there's no formula that says that more darkness = more atmosphere, because that's retarded, but darkness if used effectively, especially when juxtaposed with other environments, can look brilliant.
Let's get things clear here. I don't think y'all are arguing the same point.
- One side seems to argue that the maps look to dark in general. Which is kind of valid.
- The other side argues that the dark rooms are not dark enough and that there are not enough dark spots/patches in the maps. Which is really an issue. I think the keyword here is contrast. Perhaps what the maps need is a higher contrast between the dark rooms and the light ones. That would likely make all happier.
Also red lights... instead of toning them all down, I think they should just remove most and leave some to be focused on a few spots in the room. say allowing the marines to find doors and nodes, but keeping the ceilings very dark.
<!--quoteo(post=1832019:date=Feb 13 2011, 10:29 PM:name=SentrySteve)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SentrySteve @ Feb 13 2011, 10:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1832019"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And when players find a way to increase their brightness the balance of the game may be completely thrown off. That's why you don't balance with lighting in mind.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm really getting sick of this argument.
Like I've said before: At some point NS2 has to decide whether it wants to be more of a team vs team strategical RTS/FPS or an atmospheric aliens vs space marines FPS. You can't do both to the fullest extend in one game and especially not on a limited set of high detail maps that require huge amount of work to create.
In addition to the obvious issues mentioned here, the combination leaves the player in a nasty crossroads position: Should I play the game as a board game where I analyse the pieces on the board, learn about their connections and consistencies - or - should I just try to get immersed by the atmosphere, live on the moment and fight for my survival on the space ship?
I can live with both styles of gameplay, but not simultaenously. In NS' case they've built up quite a lot of that board game nature by having the RTS elements though, so I can't see myself being able to ignore that and focus completely on the atmospheric FPS I've got.
You can never 100% stop people changing their own brightness setting via their monitor or graphics vendor software.
Although there's a certain standard and desire of play the game developer may set on you with lighting in their environment. You're only cheating yourself out of the overall experience if you change your brightness settings up full.
As far as I can see the only people that will ultimately change this to get an advantage is the competitive scene/hardcore players that come from that. Sorry if you have to turn your monitor up to get what you would call your best playing experience, however that's actually just tough. Get on with it, if you want to play in a league and all have gamma and white balance up full fine go ahead, although I'll play the game how the developer intended it to be played thank you very much.
Bad News BearJoin Date: 2011-02-08Member: 80944Members
edited February 2011
<!--quoteo(post=1832107:date=Feb 14 2011, 09:30 AM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Feb 14 2011, 09:30 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1832107"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I get that darkness isn't good for a competitive multiplayer game where everyone sees everyone and people don't use ambush tactics and skill is very much determined on the 1v1 scale<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Sorry to just pick and quote from your post but this stands out to me as incorrect.
The reason competitive players are against darkness is because it is just a quick gimmicky ambush technique (which also happens to introduce a large amount of randomness). Without darkness players are forced to make proper strategical ambushes as a team, which admittedly never happens in casual public play. It's one of the reasons early game SC is so frustrating for marines/feels kind of boring as alien in NS1;)
Speaking of which, isn't darkness basically the exact same gameplay mechanic as sensory chambers but with more variability between hardware, less strategic choice for both teams and so on?
A gameplay problem I feel is a problem with darkness, assuming it's a perfect world and everyone has the exact same screens and so on, is that it's too powerful a mechanic to be balanced around. It's hard to shoot highly mobile things in a darkened room, it feels like the enemy is re-cloaking every time they dodge out of your sight. It doesn't feel <i>fair</i>. Like when you're playing public NS1 and you know you have to make a dent in the alien economy early on but the aliens took SC first and your team are bad, there's a feeling of helplessness which leads to frustration at the game.
I worry that this can lead to stale gameplay if balanced around darkness: marines are only going to want to stay in light areas and aliens only fight in dark areas. Something which many of the competitive NS1 players are worried will already happen with the introduction of DI. Look at zerg in SC2, if you don't engage on creep you're intentionally gimping yourself.
Edit: Also, it's not exactly very spectator friendly. If I watch a friend play a game and he's just getting killed out of nowhere I'm not going to want to play it. If I'm watching competitive play of some game I don't want to be looking at darkness the whole time. There's this aspect to condiser as well IMO.
<!--quoteo(post=1832133:date=Feb 14 2011, 02:10 PM:name=Bad News Bear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bad News Bear @ Feb 14 2011, 02:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1832133"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A gameplay problem I feel is a problem with darkness, assuming it's a perfect world and everyone has the exact same screens and so on, is that it's too powerful a mechanic to be balanced around. It's hard to shoot highly mobile things in a darkened room, it feels like the enemy is re-cloaking every time they dodge out of your sight. It doesn't feel <i>fair</i>.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is the point though, isn't it? The darkness is meant to be a real disadvantage to the marines, further promoting the need to cover each other. People seem to be basing balance arguments about the darkness on one-on-one fights, which really should not be happening unless someone is silly enough to go Rambo. With 3 or 4 marines, that is a lot of ara covered, so even if you aren't looking directly at an alien, a team mate might, and you will still be seeing them.
Plus, a lot of people are pushing for flares or work lights to be implemented, which would also aid the balancing. Add the portable power generators, and it really doesn't sound half as unbalanced as people are suggesting.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I worry that this can lead to stale gameplay if balanced around darkness: marines are only going to want to stay in light areas and aliens only fight in dark areas. Something which many of the competitive NS1 players are worried will already happen with the introduction of DI. Look at zerg in SC2, if you don't engage on creep you're intentionally gimping yourself.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How will this make the gameplay stale? It adds an interesting dynamic. If either team wants to win, they are going to <i>have</i> to push in to enemy territory, with whatever disadvantages that may entail. This would promote proper team play, having actual strategies before running in, and make the commander far more important.
I'm interested to know how the scanner sweep will work in the dark. If that could give a brief blue outline to all aliens for a while, that would be a great way of tying in the commander to an attacking marine force. Assuming it has a cool down, it would mean the commander would have to judge when best to use it. If there is only a skulk or two defending the area, it might not be worth using, but when a counter attack is on the way, you'd best hope the comm is paying attention.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Edit: Also, it's not exactly very spectator friendly. If I watch a friend play a game and he's just getting killed out of nowhere I'm not going to want to play it. If I'm watching competitive play of some game I don't want to be looking at darkness the whole time. There's this aspect to condiser as well IMO.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So the game should be developed around the spectator? Seriously? Besides, all you need to do is add a night vision mode to the spectator and problem solved.
Been following what most of you are typing. I'm sure our opinions on this topic will eventually be heard and there will be a resolution to this issue. I like to check out topics about lighting and such. I posted one about discussing the lighting (atmospheric engine effects, color blindness, power nodes, etc mentioned).
You know why there is not a single serious multiplayer game that uses darkness as a real gameplay mechanic? - Because it doesnt work. If you make your game too dark a lot ppl will play in crappy gamma settings.
Its a pure atmospheric feature and only works if ppl want it, because there is no way to enforce it.
=> This only works in games that are not competative... (or at least in games were story and atmosphere is more important - "movie expirience")
Winning is important* for most humans, and ppl try to gain advantages over others whenever they can. The easier to gain them, the more ppl will abuse them. crappy gamma(if usefull/possible) - lots unfair scripts(if possible) - lots Hardware(money is a problem) - medium Hacks(very risky) - rare
*why do/play competative sports/games if winning is not important?
PS: Also ambushing or camping is not a gameplay mechanic - its a choice, and usually not half as effective as active participation. (since you waste time waiting that something happens, instead beeing that something)
Comments
There are always going to be better monitors, faster computers, better internet connections and or otherwise. People will do their best to find ways around this by stripping down the engine for every single console command they can find.
I think the main goal should be to appeal to the immersion of the game, and that is top priority for creating something atmospheric and scary.
Also, being that the lighting is dynamic it will not matter what gamma settings you have. If there is no light then there is nothing to be displayed then Gamma is useless.
It is like suggesting IR Goggles would work in a sealed room... they wouldn't, because there is literally no light around to bounce off surfaces.
I think as has been suggested knocking out the power nodes should work as is - but after 4/5 minutes the lighting just completely shuts off on battery power. So Marines can't mess with their settings, and are forced to use flash lights in these areas making for a much more interesting game.
Of course, the downside is that there will always be a light source coming from somewhere in a room, especially if it is full of glowing aliens.
IMO the solution to having darkness part of a comptetitive game is by integrating it with pitch black rooms where the perception of light will be pretty much equal for everyone.
Any more reasons? I have yet to hear a good one, but that doesn't mean they don't exist. If that is the best one that people can think of thought, then I find it a really poor reason.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Shocked I have to spell it out for you.
1) Monitors/computers set up properly can still have significant differences in gamma/darkness. If I say the maps are too dark and your reply is "set up your equipment properly" then you're completely ignorant.
2) A level playing field is essential for fair gameplay. The casual joe who logs 2 hours a week playing video games may not care but more dedicated players, especially those competing in online leagues, want consistency. By making NS2 this dark they're only opening up a doorway for people to artificially increase their brightness. This would give them an unfair advantage as the game would have been balanced around dark maps.
3) What is dark and light is completely subjective and a matter of personal opinion. Dark and bright environments should not be pushed on anyone. UWE could help themselves by creating maps that had decent lighting. This would allow the players that want darkness to decrease their brightness while the players who want bright environments to increase the setting.
4) You can still have <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=112720" target="_blank">maps that are well lit yet still create shadows and darkness in certain areas.</a>
Creating immerison in a multiplayer video game is near impossible. How immersed in NS2 are you going to be when it's your 20th time on a map, you have someone spamming a mic and another person bunny hopping across your screen? I'm not saying throw immerison to the wind but let's not destroy the game with overly dark maps in the name of immerison.
As for the subjective argument that some people just don't like dark games, well, tough. I am assuming that what UWE mean to do is make the game darker, since it only makes sense given the work they have put in to the engine/dynamic lighting and giving us flashlights at all (sure, we had them in NS1, but that was a mod and so more or less came with them as standard. With NS2 they have clearly had to actually code them in on purpose, with it being a new engine and all).
Of course, if I am wrong and that was all a waste of time on UWE's part, well, tough for me instead I guess.
EDIT:
Any more reasons? I have yet to hear a good one, but that doesn't mean they don't exist. If that is the best one that people can think of thought, then I find it a really poor reason.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because people don't like getting killed by something they can't see. Its the same logic as fighting invisible enemies. If you can't see your opponent, you can't actually fight back. At a minimum, any multiplayer game should give a player the chance to fight back before being killed.
The only caveat to this is if your invisible/hidden in darkness enemy is a bot that has been given some other significant disadvantage (which is why the darkness in HL2 worked well).
That is why you need different hues of red/yellow/etc to bring more life to the emergency lighting.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I disagree. I think mappers when creating white light need to make different hues toned down, rather than using "white light". Most mappers I know and the team will understand this and do this, when you use values of or close to 255 255 255, it doesn't look correct, I'll use your term flat too. Although you get blues, purples, browns, greens, yellows, reds, oranges etc. which are really subtle and can be and often are used as "white light" which make a level and area look less flat, as you say.
Adding this to the emergency lighting doesn't make sense to me. Aliens can use alien vision to see straight through it. Emergency lighting is probably there to hinder, not completely annihilate the chances of killing an alien as a marine. Yes, I agree the emergency lighting needs work on and it will get it, although for now it's in a good enough state to test with and get good feedback with. However I don't see how turning it in to a rave room will help.
I can't see anything in Spark that lets me set the emergency lighting level so far, so that's a no to that setting for someone who mentioned it.
<!--QuoteBegin-ScardyBob+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Darkness is a terrible multiplayer game feature. See Doom 3.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Total darkness like Doom 3 is a bad feature for most FPS games that is true. Although the absence of lighting in certain areas and in a certain way is not, that's what can help create atmosphere. Using dark spots and shadowing is very effective. It adds another element to the gameplay, a new mechanic which hardcore natural selection 1 players won't like but hey, it's just tough, we're moving away from the days of fullbright levels again.
If you're going to compare light in NS2, right now Tram is the only official release date map we can play. Trams marine start is to the T from the guidelines, a bright area to favour marines. The alien spawn is slightly darker, albeit not by much but as with the raised ceiling, there's a lot less light at the top (imo still too much) to favour aliens. It's the only place without a tech node, understandably, but maybe an accessible node could be produced for marines to keep up and aliens to take down close by outside the hive just to add the darker element to balance the area out, although I've digressed slightly.
At various points through tram, there is effective shadowing created across corridors to reduce light to help aliens, however the light is still there. There is less purposeful lighting being reflected on to the ceilings, to again, help the aliens and create that balance between aliens and marines. The vent work underneath the tram tunnel itself is well lit so you can see alien movement, another good little balance there. On the whole I find Tram is dingy, it's dim, but it's more or less balanced with making the fight areas better lit and the ambush areas lesser lit.
The argument of "it's too dark for him and too light for me" is easily and stupidly sorted. There's a reason a lot of games used to have a gradiant bar and asked you to set your brightness, with the words "If you can read this it's too bright" or similar written on the gradiant bar.
1) Monitors/computers set up properly can still have significant differences in gamma/darkness. If I say the maps are too dark and your reply is "set up your equipment properly" then you're completely ignorant.
2) A level playing field is essential for fair gameplay. The casual joe who logs 2 hours a week playing video games may not care but more dedicated players, especially those competing in online leagues, want consistency. By making NS2 this dark they're only opening up a doorway for people to artificially increase their brightness. This would give them an unfair advantage as the game would have been balanced around dark maps.
3) What is dark and light is completely subjective and a matter of personal opinion. Dark and bright environments should not be pushed on anyone. UWE could help themselves by creating maps that had decent lighting. This would allow the players that want darkness to decrease their brightness while the players who want bright environments to increase the setting.
4) You can still have <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=112720" target="_blank">maps that are well lit yet still create shadows and darkness in certain areas.</a>
Creating immerison in a multiplayer video game is near impossible. How immersed in NS2 are you going to be when it's your 20th time on a map, you have someone spamming a mic and another person bunny hopping across your screen? I'm not saying throw immerison to the wind but let's not destroy the game with overly dark maps in the name of immerison.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1) This is what calibration tools are for, so that no matter what hardware you are running, a certain baseline of brightness is the same across everything. If there is ANY difference, then the monitor is not set up properly. Your first sentence is absolutely incorrect. Besides, if you find a map too dark, use the frickin' flashlight.
2) If a league wants to pick up NS2, it is their responsibility to make sure everyone is on a fair playing level. UWE are looking to develop an awesome multiplayer game, and I feel, and I get the impression so do UWE, that darkness is going to be a factor in that. They can't just throw out something that, at the end of the day, will make the game more fun, just so that competitive leagues can play it.
Granted, the actual act of making sure no on is abusing their monitor settings would be nigh on impossible if playing online, but at a LAN or something similar, it is as easy as calibrating the monitors.
The game is for the fans who enjoy NS2 primarily, not people who want to make it a competition. I for sure will not be changing any settings, because I want to play the game and have fun, not necessarily beat someone on it.
3) So you are suggesting they make the game neutral, and people adjust their brightness to taste? What would be the point? If some people are going to do that anyway (which, no doubt they will), why not at least make it one or the other (obviously I'm on the side of having at least some really dark rooms), for those that will be playing it properly?
The real fans, and the ones that play it for fun, are going to play it as intended; are you really suggesting we get a half arsed attempt because some people are going to fiddle with brightness?
4) And likewise, the competitive gaming community could make maps that are as bright as you like, wherever you like. Why should the "for fun" gamers have to be the ones to put in the extra work, when there are for more of them? Properly implemented darkness would add a lot to the game, and I don't think it should be taken out by default to appease a few hardcore competitive gamers.
The skulk in particular relies on being sneaky and agile. It is hard to be sneaky when the darkest it gets is as bright as it gets, only red. Hiding above doorways only works so many times on so many people.
As for your arguments about immersion, way to go and pic the worst possible situation. For one, no one I have ever played with has spammed the mic. In fact, people either don't use it (which sucks), or use it very well and are friendly, helpful team players. And when that happens, the game kicks ass. As for bunny hopping, it won't be making a return.
Personally, with the lights out and my headphones on, I can seriously get in to the game. Sometimes it almost feels like a true life or death situation until a family member flicks on the lights or shouts me, snapping me out of it. The darkness isn't just for immersion, it is for gameplay and to change things up. I've harped on about the dynamic lighting going to waste otherwise, but it would also add dynamic <i>gameplay</i> with rooms being in any of a few states (emergency lighting, full lighting, pitch darkness), with (hopefully) several different methods of play being available for each situation.
So what if its the 20th time on a map if its different every time?
Your arguments seems to be based on developing the game around what the minority of people are going to do, and the worst case scenarios. This seems at odds with what the game is trying to do IMO.
The only caveat to this is if your invisible/hidden in darkness enemy is a bot that has been given some other significant disadvantage (which is why the darkness in HL2 worked well).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I can appreciate even being able to use a flashlight and gun would still not have been great in Doom 3, but in NS2 we are talking about a sqaud of marines (especially when it gets to the 16v16 level before release), each with a flashlight (and hopefully some other options in the future), covering each other and playing as a team. Anyone being killed by something they can't see is either a bad player (or, arguably, simple not looking at the enemey attacking him), or has bad team mates covering his back. Both of these situations occur in the light anyway, so what's the deal? How is this an argument against darkness?
Both situations give you a chance to fight back, and if the marines are playing properly, any aliens would still have a hard time jumping you, it just gives them more oppurtunity. Which it should, given that they have taken out the node.
If a (perfect) red light hits a (perfect) green object, it will not reflect colour because it is absorbed. Therefore appearing black or grey.
The problem is that filtered light is not perfect, you will still get other frequencies getting through and mixing occurring and producing different frequencies of colour.
Because the complexities of colour absorption, diffusion, reflection, etc can not be replicated by Spark, they need to be faked.
Therefore having a variety of red hues in areas that have emergency lighting would make a difference to the overall appearance of the effect. Given artistic license, it will make the emergency lighting more dramatic and the scene less flat.
It is similar to how listening to live music is different to recorded, because you have subtle harmonics that are cut out of the recording due to compression. They add to the overall sound, but you don't really notice them.
Light physics in a scene is infinitely more complex then 'the light is red' therefore 'every reflected source is the same red'.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I doubt however that you would really notice the difference. The lights are hitting stuff that is different colours already, it's still going to be 'oh god the room is really red' regardless of whether you put subtle differences of redness in it.
If you want a better way to do emergency lights, have the mapper set up two lighting configs for every room, both should look good, but one should be darker than the other and rely on small, low power lights to pick out key areas with the rest being a largely flat ambient wash to make the room visible. It should use a different, more dark colour scheme as well, with dull reds and blues and yellows being prevalent, but the ambient should be a very netural colour so you keep the colours of the objects in the room.
You aren't going to get good results by turning all the lights red, no matter how many shades of red you use. You need to build the lighting from the ground up for each setting, which means turning some lights off, turning others on, and picking a proper look for the lighting apart from 'same as before only entirely in shades of red.'
I'm not making any "arguments." Trying to force darkness on a player is like trying to force a certain keyboard binding or sound setting. It's <i>stupid</i> as it's all personal preference.
You said you couldn't think of any reasons to not have darkness and no one was providing them. My points, one through four, in no way were based on "worst case scenarios" or "what the minority of players would do." Instead, they're obvious and perfect examples of why forcing darkness is a horrible decision. I don't understand why you even tried to refute them.
If you want a dark game throw your brightness down to nothing and enjoy it.
Nothing. So far NS2 maps have been abnormally dark, especially custom maps, which is why I'm posting. If you notice, in my previous post I basically say the same thing.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You can still have maps that are well lit yet still create shadows and darkness in certain areas.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You said you couldn't think of any reasons to not have darkness and no one was providing them. My points, one through four, in no way were based on "worst case scenarios" or "what the minority of players would do." Instead, they're obvious and perfect examples of why forcing darkness is a horrible decision. I don't understand why you even tried to refute them.
If you want a dark game throw your brightness down to nothing and enjoy it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's not the same as forcing a set key binding at all. I do agree that it is very subjective and down to personal preference as to how dark people like it, but that only shows that it is just as bad forcing it to be light all the time. The devs need to make a decision, and people are getting mixed messages. If they decide to keep the flashlight useless, and not truly make use of dynamic lighting, so be it. I won't be happy, but it is hardly enough to make me stop playing the game. I love it already. But the impression is the game is too light, based on what we know, and the majority of input on these threads (and judging from the number of threads I have seen on the topic), the majority of people seem to agree.
And what? "no one is providing them (reasons)"? You posted four! Granted, "arguments" was a little strong a word to describe your points, but they were definitely things you felt are reason enough to not make the game any darker. And they aren't "obvious" reasons at all, since we are talking about something subjective, as you mentioned, so by definition there is no set answer. Hence why I refuted them with <i>my</i> opinion.
I could just as easily say that if you want a light game, throw your brightness up to everything and enjoy it. You seem to think you are straight out right, and that I am wrong, when in fact we are discussing our opinions. If you want it bright, have it bright. But that is no reason to deny all the other players who want it darker being able to enjoy an amazing dynamic light system and more dynamic gameplay.
No way man. It's almost like...
<!--QuoteBegin-"Myself"+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE ("Myself")</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->3) What is dark and light is completely subjective and a matter of personal opinion. Dark and bright environments should not be pushed on anyone. UWE could help themselves by creating maps that had decent lighting. This would allow the players that want darkness to decrease their brightness while the players who want bright environments to increase the setting.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you remember your "rebuttal" to my "argument" was:
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So you are suggesting they make the game neutral, and people adjust their brightness to taste? What would be the point? If some people are going to do that anyway (which, no doubt they will), why not at least make it one or the other (obviously I'm on the side of having at least some really dark rooms), for those that will be playing it properly?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I wonder what changed from that to...
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you want it bright, have it bright. But that is no reason to deny all the other players who want it darker<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's almost like you're not even reading my words. I'm not the one trying to force a brightness setting on others. You are.
Wrong.
Keeping the game as light as it it reduces the <i>gameplay</i> features of the game. Sure, someone can whack the brightness down, but apart from the actual visual effect, nothing changes. If the developers make the darkness more of a gameplay feature, like I have been discussing (i.e. extra light sources like flares etc, making the game more dynamic, more options etc) then everyone benefits, and the people scared of the dark can still up the brightness and not be worse off.
I'm not forcing the brightness on anyone, since that isn't set by the game. The gameplay features are though, and the game will be worse for it if the darkness isn't made a gameplay point, and has things built around it. You seem to think I just want it dark for darknesses sake, but I actually want it because I think it will add to the game and make it much more interesting to <i>play</i>.
The visual aspect would just be cool and immersive, imo, but I don't expect everyone to agree with that part. But having less features is objectively less interesting.
And when players find a way to increase their brightness the balance of the game may be completely thrown off. That's why you don't balance with lighting in mind.
For example infestation could make the walls look similar to the aliens, regardless of light settings. You can add geometry which aliens can hide in, and you can give marines a vision enhancer which only works in powered rooms.
There are better ways to do it than darkness, more consistent ways that don't mess up with monitor brightness.
I don't think that is reason enough to not make the game as good as it can be. If people get that arsed about it, they can get admins to ban. It shouldn't be too hard to tell when someone has stupidly high brightness settings.
I do appreciate the difficulty with this topic, don't get me wrong. I just don't think it is worth making the game, and all the players that will be playing it properly (myself included), suffer just because a few people are going to ruin it.
It's similar to people spawn camping and other such things. It's ######, but with the correct player/server mentality, when you do find someone trying their hardest to be a ###### you can sort out the issue.
Plus, there are ways to combat people cranking up the brightness. While the dark areas will obviously look light, the light areas will look stupidly bright, especially seeing as the marine spawn is typically brighter than other rooms. Plus, if UWE do implement flares or work lights (discussed in depth in a thread somewhere), those will be seriously too bright for comfort for abusers.
<i><b>
Then why have power nodes disable lighting at all?!!</b></i>
and for that matter, as it currently stands there's no advantage to aliens for destroying a node! its more productive to just destroy an extractor, ensuring the rine's resources get wasted.
so lets re cap:
a) no purpose for an alien to currently disable a node as we can all agree the lighting difference is nothing
b) why include flashlights if they are never needed?
c) why write an engine from scratch basing it around dynamic lighting if its not used for gameplay?
d) we're not necessarily saying the entire map be dark or even patches of it - just the gameplay aspect of disabling a node should have <b>PURPOSE</b>. its currently a waste of time and leaves the rine equipment in the room still easily useable
e) people are going to exploit the gamma no matter what, hell, even your monitor can change brightness.. lets not get wrapped up in this issue.
Then why have power nodes disable lighting at all?!!</b></i>
and for that matter, as it currently stands there's no advantage to aliens for destroying a node! its more productive to just destroy an extractor, ensuring the rine's resources get wasted.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The advantage of destroying power nodes is to disable marine stuctures in the area.
I don't think increased darkness is the best way to take advantage of dynamic lighting. It sounds like you want to play a different game. Maybe someone could make a "hide and seek in the dark" mod?
I personally don't care for the power nodes disabling lighting feature, it's supposed to add to the artistic atmosphere but honestly it looks bland and hurts my eyes. Emergency lighting / darkness from the power going out isn't the only application of dynamic lighting in the game; I imagine the hive and drifters should glow, and I know the flamethrower does produce light. Power nodes can disable marine electronics, that's fine, but unless we have a better application of 'the power going out', there's not much point to the lights going out or emergency lighting.
Whatever you do, change the colour from red. It sounds good in theory, but looks terrible in practice.
I get that darkness isn't good for a competitive multiplayer game where everyone sees everyone and people don't use ambush tactics and skill is very much determined on the 1v1 scale, but I think it's a waste of potential not to have darkness and shadows with such an awesome dynamic lighting effect. Many people are simply looking at darkness as just a cosmetic effect that is a hindrance, rather than a potential gameplay element which also looks good. Of course there's no formula that says that more darkness = more atmosphere, because that's retarded, but darkness if used effectively, especially when juxtaposed with other environments, can look brilliant.
Let's get things clear here. I don't think y'all are arguing the same point.
- One side seems to argue that the maps look to dark in general. Which is kind of valid.
- The other side argues that the dark rooms are not dark enough and that there are not enough dark spots/patches in the maps. Which is really an issue. I think the keyword here is contrast. Perhaps what the maps need is a higher contrast between the dark rooms and the light ones. That would likely make all happier.
Also red lights... instead of toning them all down, I think they should just remove most and leave some to be focused on a few spots in the room. say allowing the marines to find doors and nodes, but keeping the ceilings very dark.
<!--quoteo(post=1832019:date=Feb 13 2011, 10:29 PM:name=SentrySteve)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SentrySteve @ Feb 13 2011, 10:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1832019"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And when players find a way to increase their brightness the balance of the game may be completely thrown off. That's why you don't balance with lighting in mind.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm really getting sick of this argument.
About the red light: why don't they make it rotate 360 like a siren.
In addition to the obvious issues mentioned here, the combination leaves the player in a nasty crossroads position: Should I play the game as a board game where I analyse the pieces on the board, learn about their connections and consistencies - or - should I just try to get immersed by the atmosphere, live on the moment and fight for my survival on the space ship?
I can live with both styles of gameplay, but not simultaenously. In NS' case they've built up quite a lot of that board game nature by having the RTS elements though, so I can't see myself being able to ignore that and focus completely on the atmospheric FPS I've got.
People who are OK with 99% will never get 100%!
Although there's a certain standard and desire of play the game developer may set on you with lighting in their environment. You're only cheating yourself out of the overall experience if you change your brightness settings up full.
As far as I can see the only people that will ultimately change this to get an advantage is the competitive scene/hardcore players that come from that. Sorry if you have to turn your monitor up to get what you would call your best playing experience, however that's actually just tough. Get on with it, if you want to play in a league and all have gamma and white balance up full fine go ahead, although I'll play the game how the developer intended it to be played thank you very much.
Sorry to just pick and quote from your post but this stands out to me as incorrect.
The reason competitive players are against darkness is because it is just a quick gimmicky ambush technique (which also happens to introduce a large amount of randomness). Without darkness players are forced to make proper strategical ambushes as a team, which admittedly never happens in casual public play. It's one of the reasons early game SC is so frustrating for marines/feels kind of boring as alien in NS1;)
Speaking of which, isn't darkness basically the exact same gameplay mechanic as sensory chambers but with more variability between hardware, less strategic choice for both teams and so on?
A gameplay problem I feel is a problem with darkness, assuming it's a perfect world and everyone has the exact same screens and so on, is that it's too powerful a mechanic to be balanced around. It's hard to shoot highly mobile things in a darkened room, it feels like the enemy is re-cloaking every time they dodge out of your sight. It doesn't feel <i>fair</i>. Like when you're playing public NS1 and you know you have to make a dent in the alien economy early on but the aliens took SC first and your team are bad, there's a feeling of helplessness which leads to frustration at the game.
I worry that this can lead to stale gameplay if balanced around darkness: marines are only going to want to stay in light areas and aliens only fight in dark areas. Something which many of the competitive NS1 players are worried will already happen with the introduction of DI. Look at zerg in SC2, if you don't engage on creep you're intentionally gimping yourself.
Edit: Also, it's not exactly very spectator friendly. If I watch a friend play a game and he's just getting killed out of nowhere I'm not going to want to play it. If I'm watching competitive play of some game I don't want to be looking at darkness the whole time. There's this aspect to condiser as well IMO.
This is the point though, isn't it? The darkness is meant to be a real disadvantage to the marines, further promoting the need to cover each other. People seem to be basing balance arguments about the darkness on one-on-one fights, which really should not be happening unless someone is silly enough to go Rambo. With 3 or 4 marines, that is a lot of ara covered, so even if you aren't looking directly at an alien, a team mate might, and you will still be seeing them.
Plus, a lot of people are pushing for flares or work lights to be implemented, which would also aid the balancing. Add the portable power generators, and it really doesn't sound half as unbalanced as people are suggesting.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I worry that this can lead to stale gameplay if balanced around darkness: marines are only going to want to stay in light areas and aliens only fight in dark areas. Something which many of the competitive NS1 players are worried will already happen with the introduction of DI. Look at zerg in SC2, if you don't engage on creep you're intentionally gimping yourself.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How will this make the gameplay stale? It adds an interesting dynamic. If either team wants to win, they are going to <i>have</i> to push in to enemy territory, with whatever disadvantages that may entail. This would promote proper team play, having actual strategies before running in, and make the commander far more important.
I'm interested to know how the scanner sweep will work in the dark. If that could give a brief blue outline to all aliens for a while, that would be a great way of tying in the commander to an attacking marine force. Assuming it has a cool down, it would mean the commander would have to judge when best to use it. If there is only a skulk or two defending the area, it might not be worth using, but when a counter attack is on the way, you'd best hope the comm is paying attention.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Edit: Also, it's not exactly very spectator friendly. If I watch a friend play a game and he's just getting killed out of nowhere I'm not going to want to play it. If I'm watching competitive play of some game I don't want to be looking at darkness the whole time. There's this aspect to condiser as well IMO.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So the game should be developed around the spectator? Seriously? Besides, all you need to do is add a night vision mode to the spectator and problem solved.
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=112623" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=112623</a>
There's also other forum posts you should check out about people suggesting flares.
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=112596" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=112596</a>
I'm glad to see more people are concerned with the lighting in the game. Hopefully we can influence mappers/devs choices.
You know why there is not a single serious multiplayer game that uses darkness as a real gameplay mechanic?
- Because it doesnt work. If you make your game too dark a lot ppl will play in crappy gamma settings.
Its a pure atmospheric feature and only works if ppl want it, because there is no way to enforce it.
=> This only works in games that are not competative... (or at least in games were story and atmosphere is more important - "movie expirience")
Winning is important* for most humans, and ppl try to gain advantages over others whenever they can.
The easier to gain them, the more ppl will abuse them.
crappy gamma(if usefull/possible) - lots
unfair scripts(if possible) - lots
Hardware(money is a problem) - medium
Hacks(very risky) - rare
*why do/play competative sports/games if winning is not important?
PS: Also ambushing or camping is not a gameplay mechanic - its a choice, and usually not half as effective as active participation. (since you waste time waiting that something happens, instead beeing that something)