Darkness of the maps.

Bad News Bear · February 2011

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Skiddywinks @ Feb 14 2011, 03:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1832137"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>This is the point though, isn't it? The darkness is meant to be a real disadvantage to the marines, further promoting the need to cover each other. People seem to be basing balance arguments about the darkness on one-on-one fights, which really should not be happening unless someone is silly enough to go Rambo. With 3 or 4 marines, that is a lot of ara covered, so even if you aren't looking directly at an alien, a team mate might, and you will still be seeing them.

Plus, a lot of people are pushing for flares or work lights to be implemented, which would also aid the balancing. Add the portable power generators, and it really doesn't sound half as unbalanced as people are suggesting.

How will this make the gameplay stale? It adds an interesting dynamic. If either team wants to win, they are going to <i>have</i> to push in to enemy territory, with whatever disadvantages that may entail. This would promote proper team play, having actual strategies before running in, and make the commander far more important.

I'm interested to know how the scanner sweep will work in the dark. If that could give a brief blue outline to all aliens for a while, that would be a great way of tying in the commander to an attacking marine force. Assuming it has a cool down, it would mean the commander would have to judge when best to use it. If there is only a skulk or two defending the area, it might not be worth using, but when a counter attack is on the way, you'd best hope the comm is paying attention.

So the game should be developed around the spectator? Seriously? Besides, all you need to do is add a night vision mode to the spectator and problem solved.</div>

The need to cover each other is omnipresent in darkness or in well-lit areas. Aliens working in a team will rip apart marines who do not cover no matter the setting. If you're going to discuss balance of a game you have to assume both sides are equally skilled.

The worry is that by balancing aliens to the level where they are effective but not overpowered in dark areas then they will lose a straight up fight in well-lit areas.

I can predict the gameplay will be stale because what are public players more likely to do? Work together on a push that may or may not work, but will definitely not be much fun or stay in a nice bright area where kills are easy until you can tech up and crawl across the map slowly taking rooms one at a time in a super deathball which the now underbalanced aliens can't touch. It's the path of least resistance.

Something I think nobody has touched on (sorry, I read the thread quickly) is the aliens perspective. What fun is it to sit in the dark watching marines run around checking everywhere in a room while thinking to yourself "hah! I'm so <i>skilled</i>. They'll have no idea of my perfect ambush spot! Fools!!"?

The two most (only...?) fun aspects of regular alien play in NS1 were holding off well put together hive pushes and pulling off good ambushes as a team. Darkening maps removes the need for precision and timing in ambushing and will basically either make it too easy or a crapshoot as as to which darkened crevice the opponent will check first. It's basically neutering one of the most exciting and fun parts of the game. In this way darkness becomes a binary mechanic: never ever never good in multiplayer games.

All good points for "darkness" are basically the same as the use of the Sensory Chamber first in NS1, i.e. incredibly un-fun. Frustrating or boring depending on which side you're playing. NS already has a great way of alien ambushing that requires much more skill and timing than hiding in a shadow. I get the feeling sometimes that people arguing for really dark areas in maps don't really think of it from a two sided multiplayer perspective.

If flares and so on are used then great, darkness has no gameplay value and is simply atmospheric. I have no problem with this other than dark/"atmospheric" multiplayer games appeal to a niche audience and it's my belief that NS2 should at least try and appeal to spectators. Spectators are certainly important when designing a game IMHO as it keeps the community strong which helps word of mouth and keeps the game going. More sales, more players, longer lifespan of the game.

I have nothing against darkened areas in maps like Thaldarin suggests but whole areas plunged in darkness should be reserved for single-player.

Thaldarin · February 2011

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Koruyo @ Feb 14 2011, 04:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1832147"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>ITS NOT A GAMEPLAY MECHANIC.</div>

Darkness and lightness is. I'm working on a level where I'm using the dynamics of the dynamic lighting to give players an edge if they don't overbright their screens. How? Simple, every where you go there will be shadows, you'll have a much bigger advantage seeing a skulks shadow looming from above you than if you fullbright your level, turn shadows off and run beneath him.

That's a gameplay mechanic bud.

IronHorse · February 2011

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Thaldarin @ Feb 14 2011, 12:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1832182"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>That's a gameplay mechanic bud.</div>

i agree. why else would Charlie be so excited about <b>and implement</b> power nodes turning off lights in areas? the dynamic lighting engine is intended to be a gameplay mechanic - obviously.

my concern is that they didn't go far enough with this mechanic if there are bright red lights..
if you ever need to use the flashlight in this game to see clearly enough to kill an alien, (disregarding the 4 seconds of pitch darkness) then you need a) a new monitor b) check your gamma and brightness settings.

(That's you, sentry steve.)

i am not suggesting darker or lighter maps.
i am suggesting the gameplay mechanic of lights going into red lights when power nodes are destroyed are currently insufficient and do nothing for an alien.

i mean.. is everyone against darkness in power node disabled rooms because they dont know there's a flashlight in the game?

Koruyo · February 2011

Okay it is somehow a gameplay mechanic(visual effect) because its connected with the powergrid system(the real mechanic) - indicator that the room has no power. (black - power reboot and then emergency redlights.)

Im not against darkness - im against over doing it/doing it wrong. (im happy with the current light/darkness)

Its no a single player, and ambush tactics only sound good on paper + you dont need pitch black darkness to do it. (you dont even need darkness at all, just hide and listen)

What some of you want is playing hide and seek amnesia style in a fast action multiplayer fps... this will never happen. (or at least not without a lot ppl just tuning their gamma settings if it gets too dark)

Thaldarin · February 2011

I'm still failing to see your point at how dynamic lighting, shadowing and darkness aren't a gameplay mechanic and are going to detrimentally affect the game for the overall audience.

It sounds like a lot of competitive whining, maybe you can convince me with a logical reason that you're not a competitive player whining you can't play with a gameplay dynamic you don't like or can't handle?

Koruyo · February 2011

Believe what you want in your black&white world. (im a stereotype for you already - gj in judging)
Im for both sides => the middle way.

And i can play however i want - depends on mood. If i get annoyed by too dark gamedesigns i might increase gamma or i might not... if the match* is important to me in a competitive way - sure i will increase gamma(if it gives a good advantage/and you have to assume others do it), and you would too. (if this is used as important mechanic)

The thing is, monitors cant have forced settings - you might see yourself in a pitch black room while others can see you clearly even without flashlights - or the other way around.(could even happen in standard monitor settings - with 0 changes ingame or at the monitor - contrast, black white points of the monitor viewing angles etc.)

Using this as important gamemechanic doesnt work.

*league/ladder game

ScardyBob · February 2011

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Thaldarin @ Feb 14 2011, 12:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1832182"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>Darkness and lightness is. I'm working on a level where I'm using the dynamics of the dynamic lighting to give players an edge if they don't overbright their screens. How? Simple, every where you go there will be shadows, you'll have a much bigger advantage seeing a skulks shadow looming from above you than if you fullbright your level, turn shadows off and run beneath him.

That's a gameplay mechanic bud.</div>

Its just a poor gameplay mechanic. The only way I see it working is if only parts of maps are nearly or completely dark (e.g. ceilings, under platforms, next to pipes). Basically, providing sections in a room where a skulk or lerk can hide in the darkness.

Thaldarin · February 2011

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Feb 14 2011, 10:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1832211"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>The only way I see it working is if only parts of maps are nearly or completely dark (e.g. ceilings, under platforms, next to pipes). Basically, providing sections in a room where a skulk or lerk can hide in the darkness.</div>

You've got it.

EDIT:

Koruyo you keep saying it doesn't work but you're yet to explain how and why it doesn't actually work. It sounds more and more like you just don't like the idea of it which is fair enough, although just say it rather than ###### footing around it. If you don't like it, that's fine, but don't try to a judge it to being "a bad gameplay mechanic" when you have decided early on it isn't a gameplay mechanic.

Koruyo · February 2011

You know why there is no specific explanation? Because im speaking globally while you have particular cases in mind.
Sure darkness can be used - but only very wisley. If you just say- crank up the overall darkness - i say no that doesnt work.

Atm its not really a gameplay mechanic(at least not with a real impact) in ns2 - there is no pitch black or real dark area(and they dont what it)... you can see everything at all times. (while the flashlight can help - it isnt really needed at all. Or are you going to tell me that the 3s of darkness while a powernode goes down is a dealbreaker?

IronHorse · February 2011

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Koruyo @ Feb 14 2011, 03:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1832230"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>If you just say- crank up the overall darkness - i say no that doesnt work.</div>

dude. read my OP and read thaldarin's posts. no one has suggested once to "Crank up the overall darkness" in fact we have suggested the opposite of this.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Koruyo @ Feb 14 2011, 03:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1832230"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>Atm its not really a gameplay mechanic(at least not with a real impact) in ns2 - there is no pitch black or real dark area(and they dont what it)...</div>

its a gameplay mechanic if the dynamic lights are changed due to a player damaging a structure (powernode) thats gameplay (player input) directly impacting the light (atmosphere). please stop arguing the point of it being a gameplay mechanic - it doesnt matter to what degree, red light or pitch dark.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Koruyo @ Feb 14 2011, 03:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1832230"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>you can see everything at all times. (while the flashlight can help - it isnt really needed at all.</div>

I'm glad you agree with my OP and every post since then. whats the point of the flashlight if there are never instances of darkness?

SentrySteve · February 2011

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Feb 14 2011, 04:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1832200"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>i agree. why else would Charlie be so excited about <b>and implement</b> power nodes turning off lights in areas? the dynamic lighting engine is intended to be a gameplay mechanic - obviously...my concern is that they didn't go far enough with this mechanic if there are bright red lights..</div>

You clearly didn't understand what I was saying. Having lights go off for a few seconds before back up red-lighting comes on isn't playing a map in darkness. I was referencing a map designed where every other hallway or corner is dark and difficult to see.

I really don't care because I'll play the game the way I want to play it. I was merely pointing out the extreme imbalance that will be created when players like me are playing a well lit game while others are in darkness and shadows. If you want darkness now don't change your mind when the game is released and a portion of the player base chooses to turn up their gamma to shoot you in areas you assumed were dark.

IronHorse · February 2011

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SentrySteve @ Feb 14 2011, 05:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1832242"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>I was merely pointing out the extreme imbalance that will be created when players like me are playing a well lit game while others are in darkness and shadows.</div>

if thats all you were "merely" saying, the you surely haven't read the numerous replies in this thread regarding the solutions to this, to include the most popular:
if its complete darkness gamma will not matter one bit, as there is no light source to modify. ::shrugs::

twiliteblue · February 2011

I took some screenshots for comparison:

No flashlight, Low Gamma vs High Gamma
<img src="http://i1143.photobucket.com/albums/n638/tsalerk/Dark%20vs%20Light/ns2_dark_noflash.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
<img src="http://i1143.photobucket.com/albums/n638/tsalerk/Dark%20vs%20Light/ns2_light_noflash.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />

With flashlight, Low Gamma vs High Gamma
<img src="http://i1143.photobucket.com/albums/n638/tsalerk/Dark%20vs%20Light/ns2_dark_flash.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
<img src="http://i1143.photobucket.com/albums/n638/tsalerk/Dark%20vs%20Light/ns2_light_flash.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />

Just a few observations: It is clear that the current flashlight has little use, even in unpowered rooms. With increased screen gamma, as long as there is a shred of light in every corner, there will be no dark corners for aliens to hide in.

IMO, the few seconds of near-total darkness right after a power node is destroyed is the most preferred environment for aliens. Unfortunately, the window of opportunity is very small, and there are usually no marines in the room to ambush in those few seconds. To me, it seems unfortunate that such a good game mechanism is so under-utilized.

On the other hand, total darkness would be brutal to marines, as Skulks can ambush from so many more directions, not to mention Lerks will be able to spike marines with impunity. This would make rooms very difficult for marines to retake once power is destroyed.

My suggestion is to increase the contrast in lighting conditions: Mappers should remove <b>emergency lighting</b> from <b>some</b> of the corners, vents, and ceilings spaces, while maintaining the existing level of emergency lighting in most of the areas in each room.
Hopefully, this will be a good middle ground for game balance. Marines will have the opportunity to check dark spaces for aliens, but at a slower and cautious pace. While the aliens will still have ample locations from which to ambush marines.

[Edit] Just realised I was unable to capture most of the change in screen gamma with FRAPS, so I photoshoped them to reflect the actual in-game view.

luns · February 2011

darkness needs to be increased! too much is visible, red light needs to be tuned down as well.

Mr. Epic · February 2011

Do you guys want to play doom 3 or ns? You can't make those much darker without clipping at 0,0,0. How about you ask for dynamics processing that, in dark areas, applies an hdr-ish effect where the lighter objects appear brighter (dynamic range expansion)? By raising the dynamics you make the dark areas dark without deleting them, and you would help to eliminate gamma cheating because the expanded range would result in severe clipping should they attempt to raise it beyond a given range.

Tig · February 2011

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (twiliteblue @ Feb 14 2011, 09:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1832258"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><img src="http://i1143.photobucket.com/albums/n638/tsalerk/Dark%20vs%20Light/ns2_light_noflash.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /></div>

please circle the areas in your gamma adjusted picture that you would need to use your flashlight for. if you find zero areas where a flashlight is needed, then you find zero areas where a skulk can hide unnoticed in order for him to close the distance turning a range advantage into a melee advantage (there's your gameplay mechanic) and therefore the overall room light level needs to be darkened to provide "hidey holes."

don't waste uwe coding time on this, mappers decide what the overall darkness/lightness level is.

luns · February 2011

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mr. Epic @ Feb 15 2011, 04:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1832260"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>Do you guys want to play doom 3 or ns?</div>

do you want to be visible across the room? but looking at the current "dark rooms" you notice being sneaky/stealthy isn't so good since the lighting expose too much - plus don't need the flashlight even. power shortage should darken the room better, maybe not pitch black but for sure it has to be better than what we have now.

Mr. Epic · February 2011

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (luns @ Feb 14 2011, 10:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1832262"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>do you want to be visible across the room? but looking at the current "dark rooms" you notice being sneaky/stealthy isn't so good since the lighting expose too much - plus don't need the flashlight even. power shortage should darken the room better, maybe not pitch black but for sure it has to be better than what we have now.</div>
my post was edited. I think the best course of action right now would be to give mappers more control. Relying on post-processing to fix this is a possibility but the more you have to fix the harder the processing will be. It may be easier to get it "mostly" right at the map lighting level- it would certainly be the most time and cost-effective way to deal with it.

twiliteblue · February 2011

I also updated my post.

Bad News Bear · February 2011

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tig @ Feb 15 2011, 03:10 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1832261"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>please circle the areas in your gamma adjusted picture that you would need to use your flashlight for. if you find zero areas where a flashlight is needed, then you find zero areas where a skulk can hide unnoticed in order for him to close the distance turning a range advantage into a melee advantage (there's your gameplay mechanic) and therefore the overall room light level needs to be darkened to provide "hidey holes."</div>

Vents, crates, crevices and line of sight breaks in map geometry provide all this and more without introducing a wildly variable mechanic ?

twiliteblue · February 2011

I believe UWE planned (and is attempting) to make stealth-by-darkness a core game feature. I can't see why they would go through the trouble of making their own graphics engine with dynamic lighting, the marine flashlight flashlight, as well as alien night vision, only to have marine players turn up their gamma (and thumbing their noses at the devs).

Harimau · February 2011

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (twiliteblue @ Feb 15 2011, 10:55 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1832258"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>My suggestion is to increase the contrast in lighting conditions: Mappers should remove <b>emergency lighting</b> from <b>some</b> of the corners, vents, and ceilings spaces, while maintaining the existing level of emergency lighting in most of the areas in each room.
Hopefully, this will be a good middle ground for game balance. Marines will have the opportunity to check dark spaces for aliens, but at a slower and cautious pace. While the aliens will still have ample locations from which to ambush marines.</div>
This. This is the best way. In a well-lit room, most spaces are fully visible (maybe some aren't); in an emergency-lit room, some spaces are fully visible (but many aren't). So the mapper has to essentially design for two game environments in the very same room(s).

A lot of the problem with the current system leads to the question: What's the point?
What's the point of flashlights if there's no darkness?
What's the point of linking the lighting to power nodes if you can see everything anyway?
What's the point of dynamic lighting if you don't make use of it?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (twiliteblue @ Feb 15 2011, 01:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1832287"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>I believe UWE planned (and is attempting) to make stealth-by-darkness a core game feature. I can't see why they would go through the trouble of making their own graphics engine with dynamic lighting, as well as alien night vision, only to have marine players turn up their gamma (and thumbing their noses at the devs).</div>
And this. Much of the game is already designed with darkness in mind, or at least it seems to be.

Thaldarin · February 2011

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (twiliteblue @ Feb 15 2011, 02:55 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1832258"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>My suggestion is to increase the contrast in lighting conditions: Mappers should remove <b>emergency lighting</b> from <b>some</b> of the corners, vents, and ceilings spaces, while maintaining the existing level of emergency lighting in most of the areas in each room.
Hopefully, this will be a good middle ground for game balance. Marines will have the opportunity to check dark spaces for aliens, but at a slower and cautious pace. While the aliens will still have ample locations from which to ambush marines.</div>

Emergency lighting isn't actually controlled by mappers right now.

The current system in place which to me, looks like it's a temporary measure, being the red lighting works as follows. A mapper lights their room as they wish, when power node goes down, all of those lights turn red. There's currently only one light set for this, it's out of a mappers control.

I don't think this is by any means the final version of emergency lighting, however, just an initial test to get it in there and then develop it further, so I'd keep your hair guys by not pulling it out over this issue.

IronHorse · February 2011

too bad we didn't get any two cents from the devs regarding this..

peregrinus · February 2011

^ Well the lighting is going to have to be worked on in relation to Dynamic Infestation, once theyve got that down then we'll know how to balance darkness etc.

SentrySteve · February 2011

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (twiliteblue @ Feb 14 2011, 09:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1832258"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>My suggestion is to increase the contrast in lighting conditions: Mappers should remove <b>emergency lighting</b> from <b>some</b> of the corners, vents, and ceilings spaces, while maintaining the existing level of emergency lighting in most of the areas in each room.
Hopefully, this will be a good middle ground for game balance. Marines will have the opportunity to check dark spaces for aliens, but at a slower and cautious pace. While the aliens will still have ample locations from which to ambush marines.</div>

I like this too. Probably the best suggestion / compromise there is.

Sops · February 2011

I think red rotating beacon lights could be interesting. The movement of the light could make the maps look more interesting and at the same time help mask the movement of skulks without having to make the maps overly dark.

Align · February 2011

I don't know...
I would never want to be across the room from a marine as a skulk, darkness or no (he can just pop a few rifle rounds off and see if the shadows bleed anyway), and if I'm about to drop on his head it doesn't really matter if it's dark.

SgtBarlow · February 2011

We can't simply go round removing lights from corners where the lit balance is correct, the red lights are the existing lights that simply turn red not additional lights.
Solution probably is to reduce intensity of Point Lights and Ambient lights in the emergancy setting, mapper has no control over the effect other than what lights do actually get affected its all ocde side where it can make anything that is not a Spot Light much darker than it is now as all the main lights are indeed Spot Lights where as corners are lit mostly by those Point & Ambient source types.

Opprobrious · February 2011

I'll be using whatever gamma and brightness boosters that are available to make my game less dark.

If you want darkness, marines had better have full night vision.

These are space marines in the far future, having a light bulb burn out should hardly have an effect.

That's my immersion.

Darkness of the maps.

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