3rd Person? Bots?
Zedrein
Join Date: 2009-11-01 Member: 69206Members
Join Date: 2009-11-01 Member: 69206Members
Comments
cheats 1 - Turns cheats on; required for some commands
thirdperson - View your character model in thirdperson
dev 1 - Turns developer mode on; required for bots
addbot - Adds a random bot
Oh yes :p
Sometimes I just think that having aliens play entirely in third-person would be a good idea. Half the difficulty with them is that it's quite hard to keep track while attacking a moving target, if it was in third-person you'd be less confused dealing melee attacks.
You put something in front of their Third-Person camera. Then they can't see what they are doing and then are FORCED to go back into First-Person mode!
Other than that.
Third-Person is a cheat.
You adjust the rendering system to obscure (typically via a "Fog of War") what your character (not the camera) is unable to see, given his viewpoint? Just to give an example.
It's a cheat because it causes the game to function in a manner other than is currently intended.
Nanites.
By which I mean I don't see any issue with aliens getting better visibility than marines, aliens already have significant vision advantages in the form of tron vision and hive sight, so it's fair to say that they are sort of supposed to know where marines are all the time, assuming they're close enough to them.
I really don't see third person being a problem in that sense, although getting it to work in NS2s confined spaces might be hard.
Teabagging is just as effective as seeing around corners?
My!
--Scythe--
<ul><li><i>Obscured</i> is not equal to <i>not rendered</i> for starters.</li><li>For melee attacks, third-person perspective is better. You can orbit the camera around yourself which helps to orient yourself in a world with depth (important for melee attacks since they do not instantly travel across their path like bullets do when fired. Knowing where you are in relationship to the other objects near you is essential in using melee attacks effectively.
For ranged attacks, first-person perspective is king. It's a lot more difficult to gauge the differences in depth that melee attacks can take advantage of, but a bullets trajectory travels so fast that from the first-person perspective whatever your crosshair is on is (in a perfect world) what's getting hit, so the distance a player is from you is considerably less important (in aiming an attack).</li><li>Imagine you're a Skulk running at a marine who is also running towards you. As the distance between you closes, you chomp down, you're view is obstructed, and the marine is gone. You have no idea which way he went. Now, in reality, even if your eyes were in your mouth, you would still instinctively know where he was due to your other senses communicating that to you, but this isn't reality and all you have is stereo (or 5-point surround sound) and a flat monitor with which you cannot gauge depth, so a third-person perspective that allows you to rotate the camera around a player helps to compensate for the lack of those senses and allows you to make better </li><li>In it's current implementation (and NS's implementation), you can't use A and D to strafe walls unless you're looking up or down the wall. However, this would feel unintuitive if the camera roll did not change accordingly, so they would be forced to implement the "allegedly nauseating" AvP wall-climb camera which would likely piss at least half the community off. In third-person the camera is at a distance from the player and therefore angle transitions do not have to be as tight or sudden. This creates other problems however, like frequent camera obstructions, and what to do in vents (shoulder-cam?).</li></ul>
Just a few differences.
<b>TL:DR; Any change in perspective is--abstractly--the altering of information provided to you. First-person perspective provides a different set of information than third-person perspective, and that set does not consist SOLELY of "what is and isn't seen around a corner".</b>
I don't get what tea-bagging has anything to do with a third person camera, and he only mentioned that it allows you to see around corners, and that can't be countered by the marine standing around the corner... that is unless the marine also has <a href="http://hackedgadgets.com/wp-content/_Corner-Shot-5.jpg" target="_blank">Corner shot</a> so that he can see around corners too.
About using it to look past corners, doesnt hive vision do that already? You would just have to see if something is in your firstperson fov, and if not, just not draw it. Then you can still see the hive sight symbol, but not the actual model.
When it comes to using it for fighting easyer, just disable the ability to use alien "abilities" while in thirdperson.
This is intented gameplay-design, the skulk's view should be obstructed, it is one of it's drawbacks. Playing the realism-card isn't going to help balance this game frankly.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->TL:DR; Any change in perspective is--abstractly--the altering of information provided to you. First-person perspective provides a different set of information than third-person perspective, and that set does not consist SOLELY of "what is and isn't seen around a corner".[/b]<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The point wasn't that first-person is better, it's that only one of them should be allowed, for pretty much the reasons you gave. Seeing around corners just seals the deal.
Not to mention that Stereo is perfectly suited to determine location of an enemy, it is actually MUCH better then using one of those crappy surround headphones. In fact people who are having trouble should get themselves a better headphone, I suggest Sennheiser!
Heck if people can't locate an enemy by using sound, while the jaw of the Skulk are closed for that split second. Mind you it doesn't even fully cover the screen either. You're doing something wrong or are using a crappy headphone
lol, ARC. /thread.
...wut?
It means not only can animals have a wider FOV, but also that vision does not become blurred because they can process it faster. So you can track things quicker, unlike humans whose vision blurs very quickly even when we turn out heads a little bit.
This + fps is why as Skulk currently it is hard to track people close up, and it makes no sense. If it was made easier you'd probably have to boost marine DPS, but then at least the Alien's melee attacks would be more usable.
The disadvantages from getting too close for aliens is like suggesting the Marines should not be able to see aliens once they reach over 8 meters away. I'd like to see a gameplay style that allowed me to bite or claw Marines and outmanoeuvre them up close.
Not bite at them and then find myself biting at air near their feet unless I back off a few meters before attacking again.
3rd person Aliens would not only make wall walking look cool (no need to flip camera view) but also work better from a melee aspect. The only issue really is implementation, but it would probably be easier than trying to work in AVP2 style wall walking for Skulk that no one likes, or trying to widen FOVs etc...
read it slowly. then go to the wiki and read what the arc is. then take the time to understand why an arc is a counter to seeing around corners. then edit your comment.
I think there are already enough ways to determine marine positions for aliens -
Footsteps etc(sound), Hive view on DI, Parasite, Commander scouting.
-------------------
Whatever:
I would need to test it - befor i say no. But for this, changing the viewdistance isnt enough, we would need options to setup the exact camera position depending on lifeform, maybe even some dynamic moving for wallwalking and flying.
I don't think it would dumb things down, especially if there was a sort of 'back cam'. If roles become more defined as well, it means things become much more tactical and every unit has a use. I don't like washed out roles, I like to know exactly what is good at doing what, and that A is good at supporting B, etc, etc.
Did you even read what I said, or do you just look for buzz-words and then dash to retort?
Everything in this game is a representation of concepts that either exists or doesn't exist, but that we are only able to imagine because of what we already understand. Everything we create is based off of what we already know to be true or not true. <b>This is also known as reality.</b> Reality is all we know, because it is, be definition, what we know. It's everywhere. Rendering a viewport in the first-person is done so to simulate reality. Movement is programmed to simulate reality. A HUD is designed to illustrate what we need to see but is either obscured by reality or our viewport.
So just because I use the word "reality" does not mean I am advocating that the games design be changed to better accommodate reality.
I'm aware this is an intended feature, but just because it was implemented as intended does not mean it is balanced (Note: that statement does not necessarily imply that it ISN'T balanced, it just posits that your statement is fallacious because it implies the opposite).
This problem exists in all cases in first-person perspective where a player runs past you, even for marines. As a Marine, at the speed skulks travel, if one gets within melee range, don't expect to be able to keep track of them, as they can just run circles around you and bite you to death. But that is good design, even if unintentionally so; someone with a gun should be in trouble if they let someone within melee range. But skulks have the same problem (even ignoring the view obfuscation) where I don't believe they should, simply because of their attack pattern.
Ranged classes need spatial awareness/information in a line in front of them in order to use their weapon effectively. First-person perspective facilitates this.
Melee classes need spatial awareness/information in a radius in front of them in order to use their weapon effectively. Third-person perspective facilitates this.
<!--quoteo(post=1837078:date=Mar 14 2011, 11:03 AM:name=Align)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Align @ Mar 14 2011, 11:03 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1837078"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So? If you obscure everything you couldn't see with first person - and you'd have to, to make them equal - then you're obscuring... everything you couldn't see with first person.
The point wasn't that first-person is better, it's that only one of them should be allowed, for pretty much the reasons you gave. Seeing around corners just seals the deal.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You aren't obscuring EVERYTHING you couldn't see with first person. You aren't obscuring you're ability to pan a camera and better gauge depth. First-person is better for things that first-person is better for, and I don't believe melee attacks are one of them, primarily due to the lack of depth rendered in a fixed perspective.
<!--quoteo(post=1837080:date=Mar 14 2011, 12:04 PM:name=Kouji_San)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kouji_San @ Mar 14 2011, 12:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1837080"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Not to mention that Stereo is perfectly suited to determine location of an enemy, it is actually MUCH better then using one of those crappy surround headphones. In fact people who are having trouble should get themselves a better headphone, I suggest Sennheiser!
Heck if people can't locate an enemy by using sound, while the jaw of the Skulk are closed for that split second. Mind you it doesn't even fully cover the screen either. You're doing something wrong or are using a crappy headphone<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Realy? You can hear footsteps that aren't currently implemented? Amidst gunfire, perpetual chomping, and the collision noises they produce?
Arc only attacks buildings. (trough walls)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
ill draw you a comic and scan it, gimme some time, i'll try to make it a good comic.
You figured me out, now watch me do it while I eat.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->blablablabla something about reality<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
tl:dr.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This problem exists in all cases in first-person perspective where a player runs past you, even for marines. As a Marine, at the speed skulks travel, if one gets within melee range, don't expect to be able to keep track of them, as they can just run circles around you and bite you to death. But that is good design, even if unintentionally so; someone with a gun should be in trouble if they let someone within melee range. But skulks have the same problem (even ignoring the view obfuscation) where I don't believe they should, simply because of their attack pattern.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Skulks EASELY get within melee-range all the time (through leap and hiding), this cannot be prevented by marines. Did you even play NS1?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Melee classes need spatial awareness/information in a radius in front of them in order to use their weapon effectively. Third-person perspective facilitates this.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This just comes off as if you're pisspoor at playing skulk honestly. Again, it's a skill you need to master, and you can get pretty damn good at it too if you're willing to put in the effort.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Realy? You can hear footsteps that aren't currently implemented? Amidst gunfire, perpetual chomping, and the collision noises they produce?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Obviously sound isn't properly implemented yet, and this includes footsteps, but let's not change fundamental gameplay components because of that.
Nice!
Marines fire their guns and the rest is obviously going to change so your point on that is nullified ;)