Biggest problem with NS2 beta
BitPon
Join Date: 2010-11-20 Member: 75104Members
Join Date: 2010-11-20 Member: 75104Members
<div class="IPBDescription">I've found it!</div>I always thought NS1 was a game that kind of became what the players made of it. Like most standard mmorpgs - sure you can grind giant rats for hours by yourself, but it’s the interaction with other players that makes them fun to play. Same goes for NS but in a more quick-fix form. The reason why I loved NS1 so much was because it was a lot of fun being able to work together as a team, talking to each other and coming up with good strategies (or even just following orders and listening in on the conversation for the shy ones) and most importantly, being able to do so on PUBLIC servers. No other game I know of does this as good as NS. Most of the time when I enter a NS2 server though, people spend most of their communication abilities on whining about this or that, “NS2 is heading in the wrong directionâ€, “This is trash, give me NS 1.04 instead†etc. And this annoys me more than any bugs, lag or imbalances in the game. Not because their opinions bother me, but because they put absolutely zero effort into making the games enjoyable. It’s like having a bunch of griefing teamkillers around. And I know that NS2 can be exactly as engaging as its predecessor.
I got proof of this when I myself decided to command a team of young nubs (we who used to play NS1 need to take better care of them). I kind of tried to act as the commanders I used to play with when I began playing NS1 (though I suck at commanding), telling my team what was going on, answering the newbie’s questions and giving them specific orders (and not only waypoints) to make sure everyone got a better feel of what was going on in the game. I’m pretty sure those guys had a good time. I know I had. It was nowhere near as good as a good game in NS1 used to be, but I’m sure most people there got a better feeling for what NS is all about and realized how good this game will be once it’s finished.
I’ve been trying to get my younger brother to play NS2, he’s a skilled gamer and plays a lot of competitive games like HoN, SC2, CS etc. He has almost no experience of NS1. His take on NS2 was this: There is an alien team and a marine team. Then there is one team who keeps complaining about the game. And occasionally one (very small) team who tries to actually play it. When all these people meet on a server, nothing fun comes out of it. I had to play with him and play commander in order to make him understand what NS is really all about and voila! He understood and suddenly he’s almost as passionate about the game as I am. He sees the potential of the game instead of all unfinished features and bugs.
So please, I know this is a lame thing to ask, but please. Try to make games more enjoyable. Especially those of you who used to play NS1 and understand how the game is played. It’s a win-win situation. We have more fun, UWE sells more copies, NS2 becomes a better game (and perhaps welders make a quicker return).
Now, let’s have the internet flush me down the toilet.
I got proof of this when I myself decided to command a team of young nubs (we who used to play NS1 need to take better care of them). I kind of tried to act as the commanders I used to play with when I began playing NS1 (though I suck at commanding), telling my team what was going on, answering the newbie’s questions and giving them specific orders (and not only waypoints) to make sure everyone got a better feel of what was going on in the game. I’m pretty sure those guys had a good time. I know I had. It was nowhere near as good as a good game in NS1 used to be, but I’m sure most people there got a better feeling for what NS is all about and realized how good this game will be once it’s finished.
I’ve been trying to get my younger brother to play NS2, he’s a skilled gamer and plays a lot of competitive games like HoN, SC2, CS etc. He has almost no experience of NS1. His take on NS2 was this: There is an alien team and a marine team. Then there is one team who keeps complaining about the game. And occasionally one (very small) team who tries to actually play it. When all these people meet on a server, nothing fun comes out of it. I had to play with him and play commander in order to make him understand what NS is really all about and voila! He understood and suddenly he’s almost as passionate about the game as I am. He sees the potential of the game instead of all unfinished features and bugs.
So please, I know this is a lame thing to ask, but please. Try to make games more enjoyable. Especially those of you who used to play NS1 and understand how the game is played. It’s a win-win situation. We have more fun, UWE sells more copies, NS2 becomes a better game (and perhaps welders make a quicker return).
Now, let’s have the internet flush me down the toilet.
Comments
Just take a random social media site and have a stroll trough the comment sections and you'll see this weird behavior in action... Or even weirder and quite familiar to EVERYONE :P
Summer: Gah it's too hot, I wish it was winter
Winter: Gah it's too cold, I wish it was summer
<b>Humans are boring and silly creatures, the sooner we all realize this, the better off we all are</b>
The thread title should have been "Biggest problem with the human race"
lol
So that's why I have a cat!
Winter: Gah it's too cold, I wish it was summer<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
LOL! This made my day!
btt.
Sometimes there is something to comblain about, for example if the marine commander places turrets in the wall, so the aliens are not able to win.
But most of the time complaning is just not necessary, I agree.
There is a good saying for this,I try to translate it.
"If you complian every day about things you can't change anyway, you will loose your zest for life"
Just take a random social media site and have a stroll trough the comment sections and you'll see this weird behavior in action... Or even weirder and quite familiar to EVERYONE :P
Summer: Gah it's too hot, I wish it was winter
Winter: Gah it's too cold, I wish it was summer
<b>Humans are boring and silly creatures, the sooner we all realize this, the better off we all are</b>
The thread title should have been "Biggest problem with the human race"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I belive this guy is saying we like to state the obvious.
and I've never said its too hot, its never too hot, its always too damn cold. 110 isnt hot enough for me.
You mean the same mentality that brought us out of hunter/gatherer lifestyle? Humans seek to better their current situation, it's a double edged sword since we sometimes miss the things we have but also attempt to better ourselves by striving to improve.
If you feel that there should be less whine and more gameplay and testing you should complain to the NS2 developers who decided it's a good idea to go public with an engine build that makes the game virtually unplayable for most people. Not even mentioning the fact that people paid money just to get in on it and for most people it's just sitting on their hard drives while they wait for release wondering if their money is well spent (with no assurance since they can't even test the game to see how it's going).
I literally run Saints Row 2/Far Cry 2/Prototype/ect at full settings at 1900x1600, which are notoriously difficult to run on even 'recommended' system setups, and in NS2 I get like 5 FPS for a few minutes then the game starts bugging out and it crashes. Forgive me for being bitter but so far the money doesn't seem well invested and it worries me that they'd rather add pointless effects for wall climbing when most people can't even play the damn thing right now.
This all pretty much goes hand in hand with the WTFness of switching from the Source engine and attempting to develop your own...not an easy process as evident. Looking at Portal 2 and even the revamped mod Dear Esther, there's no excuse for trolling that it's outdated or whatever.
They are running a business mainly off of pre orders, so they are forced to do this. You are failing to understand that they have to pay overheads.
# Renting the office
# Salaries for 7 +
# Equipment
# Software licensing
# Etc
This all requires a lot of money.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I literally run Saints Row 2/Far Cry 2/Prototype/ect at full settings at 1900x1600, which are notoriously difficult to run on even 'recommended' system setups, and in NS2 I get like 5 FPS for a few minutes then the game starts bugging out and it crashes. Forgive me for being bitter but so far the money doesn't seem well invested and it worries me that they'd rather add pointless effects for wall climbing when most people can't even play the damn thing right now.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This has also been explained thousands of times before. All mentioned games are given publisher/development support, which means they have xMillions to budget before they even begin the game. They also have 100s working on them, not 7.
This is a beta. If you've played games for any length of time, you'll realise how meanings have become bent. Betas now are like what Demos used to be.
Personally I think this is a marketing ploy, because 'beta' sounds more attractive and exclusive.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This all pretty much goes hand in hand with the WTFness of switching from the Source engine and attempting to develop your own...not an easy process as evident. Looking at Portal 2 and even the revamped mod Dear Esther, there's no excuse for trolling that it's outdated or whatever.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Do you know the ins and outs of programming? I doubt it.
There are issues of licensing, and control.
For one, the Source engine does not support dynamic lighting like Spark does. I doubt it ever could without significant changes to the engine. This all requires lots of time, money and work.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->To finish<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Stop being so ignorant, and grow up. The only troll on here is yourself.
If you have other games to play, go and play them. You'll just have to be patient with NS2, I'm sure it will be worth the wait.
# Renting the office
# Salaries for 7 +
# Equipment
# Software licensing
# Etc
This all requires a lot of money.
This has also been explained thousands of times before. All mentioned games are given publisher/development support, which means they have xMillions to budget before they even begin the game. They also have 100s working on them, not 7.
This is a beta. If you've played games for any length of time, you'll realise how meanings have become bent. Betas now are like what Demos used to be.
Personally I think this is a marketing ploy, because 'beta' sounds more attractive and exclusive.
Do you know the ins and outs of programming? I doubt it.
There are issues of licensing, and control.
For one, the Source engine does not support dynamic lighting like Spark does. I doubt it ever could without significant changes to the engine. This all requires lots of time, money and work.
Stop being so ignorant, and grow up. The only troll on here is yourself.
If you have other games to play, go and play them. You'll just have to be patient with NS2, I'm sure it will be worth the wait.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I am playing other games, don't kid yourself about what I know or don't know. What is fact is that NS2 devs basically released a pre-Alpha of their test client under the guise that it was in beta stage for a decent sum of money. It's been in this state for months with no sign of improving, instead the dev team focuses on gameplay elements and other trite things when there is this glaring issue at hand. I can't believe people like you are still trolling with this 'the beta term is overused and vague, don't be surprised about the quality." I've played through probably 10-15 game's that were going through alpha-closed beta-open beta-release and I've never run into any issues where I COULDN'T EVEN PLAY THE DAMN THING, not to mention PAYING FOR IT at this stage. The biggest issue I've had with prerelease games is usually related to the netcode and they usually clear that up pretty fast since the general idea for letting people play your unfinished game is for them to test and provide feedback on it, which at the moment for NS2 is seriously hindered by it's unplayability for the majority of players.
I mean jesus christ I even mentioned playing the Crisis 2 beta, which most people say is complete garbage and that Crytek shouldn't have even bothered, and even that was at least completely playable. I guess your standards are just terribly ###### low?
All I hear from you is excuses and fanboyism. I live in reality and thankfully for UW, I have just enough faith in them that I haven't attempted to ask for a refund...I guess I'll just let this installation collect dust until I remember that it exists again and check to see if it's been released.
<!--quoteo(post=1838332:date=Mar 22 2011, 02:14 PM:name=Runteh)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Runteh @ Mar 22 2011, 02:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1838332"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->For one, the Source engine does not support dynamic lighting like Spark does. I doubt it ever could without significant changes to the engine. This all requires lots of time, money and work.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm no (decent) mapper, but I'm pretty sure what's done in NS2-maps right now, could've been done in Source too (the red-light effects). If you look at L4D\L4D2 and the upcoming Portal 2, while they're basically 'hacking' together shadow-effects, it still looks pretty nice, and is very cheap on the hardware. Spark has more leniency when it comes to brush-work and lighting moving all over the place, but we've not seen anything like that yet.
Lighting wise Source level light data is compiled where as Spark is processed real-time. So you will never get the full dynamic effect with the shadows etc. in Source you will get in Spark, although Source is capable of simple dynamic lighting.
The reason I am supporting teams like this, is that they are producing unique games in an era where funding is only provided if certain parameters are met. I.e. You can have xMillions if we know for certain that it is going to give returns, based on existing formulas.
Look at the latest BF3 videos, it looks like another COD/Modern Warfare game. Because 'marketing' saw this as a 'trend' in the market.
Not because it is a creative idea pushing new grounds, but because business requires a return to lend money. It is safe.
If you are going to buy into a semi-professional indie game, don't expect miracles when 7 people are working on it. You can't even begin to compare it to professional games with huge budgets. They've already stated on many occasions that the beta was released because they required the money.
What would you rather? Waiting a bit for a game and enjoying the development, or halting a games development and possibly never seeing your money again.
Maybe a bit of a lie had to be made to achieve the final outcome. That sort of thing happens all the time, wake up.
You might not be able to play it. Some people on high specs are running it worse than me on a Laptop at 640 x 480 on lowest settings. Even I am running it at 10 - 20 fps.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The red light effect can be done in Source.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As for the dynamic lighting you are arguing could be done by pre-compiling, there is no way you would be able to create the sort of effects we are seeing currently or are likely to see in future releases.
So essentially you couldn't have achieved the atmosphere and dynamic qualities of what we are seeing currently. It would look completely different.
They have spoken of atmospheric effects, dynamic light beams through the mist. I expect it is going to be a visual treat once it is all in.
But just be patient, because all this negativity is getting no one anywhere. What is the point? I'm sure they've already said sorry thousands of times before, but there is nothing they can do but turn up at work and put in as many hours as possible.
<i>Oh for the dense people out there, THAT WAS SARCASM!</i>
So essentially you couldn't have achieved the atmosphere and dynamic qualities of what we are seeing currently. It would look completely different.
They have spoken of atmospheric effects, dynamic light beams through the mist. I expect it is going to be a visual treat once it is all in.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Pre-compiling as in radiosity? A half-way solution like L4D gets you realtime-shadows as well, just not everywhere, and not always as pretty. Then there's also the lack of BSPing in Spark, which comes with a bit of a performance-penalty in regards to rendering what is visible, but has as upside the ability for radically dynamic enviroments (moving walls\rooms and such), but that hasn't really been yielded in the few maps currently out there. Those fancy mist-effects we've been seeing (and can be enabled with a console-command that has slipped my mind right now) can be done regardless of pre-baked shadows. Fact remains Valve has the ancient system of BSP\VIS pretty much perfected, and we'll see the pinacle of it in Portal 2. It's interesting to ponder how NS2 would've looked like on that.
I'm just thinking out loud, not pointing fingers at anyone.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Oh for the dense people out there, THAT WAS SARCASM!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sarcasm requires a bit of humor too...
Indeed, >insert some random comment about Brian's grin in there then<
I remember reading somewhere that beta was feature locked, almost final gameplay. As UWE is still adding/prototyping gameplay elements, it is by this definition still an alpha.
I may be wrong though, if i am, just say so. No insults required.
...I'm not saying that that this necessarily a problem, either. Just a little bit of misrepresentation.
not devolving into the "it's not done" debate ON the SERVERs.
Have your fun and spin your anguish in the forums.
But on the SERVERs just try to play the game.
It was ...how do you say it.....a good idea
On the SERVERs make an effort to play the game, interact with the players.
and help those silly marines in green armor. <i><---That was a joke, your green armor...is pretty</i>
Then you can come back here (the forums) and discuss with a fervor.
NS2 makes my left nut itch.
NS2 gives me gas.
NS2 did my mom.
NS2 rulez.
(But no other topics than those...all other topics will get LOCKED) <i>That was a joke too</i>
See you on the SERVERs.
You might wannah see a doctor for that o.o
here is somewhat short list what normally kills it for me, and I'm sure any older players out there.
1.alien and marine commanding, pretty much the same thing now with actually slight differences (look what they did to gorge)
2.Macs, these little bots cater to commander more than marines. They took away the roles from the marines pretty much (separate commander and marines relationship)
3.armory, and commander further removing the need for commander (too much focus on the individualism)
4.over complicated abilities or nerfed which worked nicely for years (in other words the ideas they have do no translate into live gaming but rather work only on paper)
5. adding flamethrower into the game, while some may not see this as threat it actually really is. The weapon is lightsaber pretty much, no aiming required but rather waving it in any direction. the weapon has huge range, insane damage over time tick, and easily spammed.
6. still no skill based movement, and air control or momentum in-game player movement will feels sluggish
i'm sure more can be added, but commander, and marines relationship changed so much it rather feels like marines do not need one sometimes, only for basic upgrades. As for aliens, they are pretty much nerfed to the ground now. aliens have no serious counter to anything marines have. at curret rate, aliens would need an onos (tier 3) to fight marines tier 2, but once marines tier 3 is added I wonder what will happen.
the engine which is being built from ground up, will take long while before its stable I bet since much of the game is still in development. But they seriously are forgetting about ns1 values after playing this game for many months now its hard to see where this is going.
Frankly, I think the biggest issue with using source to make a fps/rts hybrid is that source was not built at all for any rts elements; its solely a fps engine. That doesn't mean that some clever devs (like UWE) can't kludge something together to give the illusion of a fps/rts hybrid, but it will always be inferior to an engine that was designed with both elements in mind.
Frankly, I think the biggest issue with using source to make a fps/rts hybrid is that source was not built at all for any rts elements; its solely a fps engine. That doesn't mean that some clever devs (like UWE) can't kludge something together to give the illusion of a fps/rts hybrid, but it will always be inferior to an engine that was designed with both elements in mind.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Tell that to Valve since they're the ones developing DotA 2.
<i>On the Source Engine.</i>
Why would UWE wake up one morning and say.
"Hey guys, let's make this harder for ourselves!"
There are no conspiracies, no black and white answers. Just a journey that an independent business is making with a desire to make a great game.
Money will matter a lot to this startup, they are not one of the most successful studios of all time.
It is quite a compliment that you are comparing them so, and I wouldn't be surprised if we see some great future titles from these guys.
I'm sure he just needs to see his pharmacist for some sort of cream.
"Hey guys, let's make this harder for ourselves!"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
"Let's instead build a game-engine, among the most complex of software, completely from scratch!"
I'd wager they must've still been high on whatever they took last night.
On a more serious note, I think even the guys at UWE secretly somewhat regret that decision, and had they have to do it over again, chances are they would've went with an already existing engine. Like I said, what they're doing with NS2 right now could've certainly be done with Source (though I remember there were technical issues with multiple commanders). They simply bit off more than what they could chew, so let's just hope UWE won't choke (ha!) over this.
I remember reading somewhere that beta was feature locked, almost final gameplay. As UWE is still adding/prototyping gameplay elements, it is by this definition still an alpha.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-pcmag.com+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (pcmag.com)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Definition of: alpha test
The first test of newly developed hardware or software in a laboratory setting. When the first round of bugs has been fixed, the product goes into beta test with actual users.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Its always been beta, only the people on the UWE payroll played the alpha.
Source works great for them at Valve because they made it. But UWE... they can go with something that expresses their love of modding, that lets them license it out once the game is released, the complete freedom to do whatever titles they're planning for the future. They could have gone the easier route by using for example Source, but then they would limit the company's own potential as well which I think would be more shameful than their somewhat butchered beta-release.
It's like having someone next to you tell you how she hates "food X" while your having X for lunch. Most of us knew this was bad manners when we where 5.
and btw...
X != Poop
...cause then it would be sort of justified.