<!--quoteo(post=1838845:date=Mar 26 2011, 01:47 AM:name=l3lessed)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (l3lessed @ Mar 26 2011, 01:47 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1838845"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I shouldn't even add to this potential toxic thread, but this just rubbed me the wrong way. This is actually fallacious logic. You're basing your argument on the theory that knowledge is predetermined, innate, and just needs retrieval through some means like language. However, there is plenty of research out there that will state the exact opposite. Under your argument, you're making a claim that their is a perfectly predefined notion of what a car is, something with 4 wheels, an engine, and a chassis. But what if the chassis is missing two passenger doors and a side mirror, is it still a car? Also what do you mean by a chassis? Is that two doors or four doors? What if it has three wheels because it lost one? Is it all of a sudden no longer a car? Just because you believe something is a car with all your heart, doesn't make it so; it's like saying a tree is a tree if it has a trunk, branches, and leaves; what if the tree looses all its leaves in the fall? Is it not a tree all of a sudden until spring comes around again then magically everyone conceives it as a tree again? Meaning is socially constructed; it isn't just sitting around awaiting someone to find and retrieve it.
So no, missing a chassis doesn't all of a sudden make a car not a car anymore because if you asked people what it was they would still tell you it is a car most likely.
Also, just because you have some idealistic and preconceived notion on what beta is doesn't make it is universally true either. I'm not saying you're wrong necessarily, but arguing based on preconceived notions of this supposed idea of beta is also doesn't make it true either. From my numerous years of being a beta tester, this is beta to me. Maybe the industry is making a social shift in the meaning of the word, but to a lot of people this is still beta as they know it. Are they all of a sudden wrong too?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
FFS. The entire point I was making about the car was to indicate that if something must have a predefined set of variables to = something, then it must have ALL the variables before it can = that thing. For example, assuming a != 0, if A + B = C, then logically B != C and A != C. If we now set A to be some requirement of what beta is, and set B to be another requirement, and we use the value C to represent a beta project, neither A or B alone can = C. Therefore, if A != C, and B != C, then a project cannot be beta unless all requirements are made to make it beta (A and B combined). Real world example: a few posts ago someone claimed that because the project was released to the public it magically became beta. Well, since thats obviously not the only requirement for what constitutes beta, its invalid logic. The same holds true for the poster above that picked out minor aspects in the links above to arrive at the determination that this project was indeed in beta.
As for my "idealistic" notion of what beta is, it basically matches the industry's "idealist" notion. Feature incomplete software isn't beta, period. 10-15 years ago dev's wouldn't have been able to get away with this, and games with glaring problems wouldn't get released--Wolfenstein: Enemy Territory is a great example.
We are not trying to trick people into giving us their money. We've been as open and honest as we can regarding the development of this game, acknowledged all the problems with it, and have shared what steps we are currently taking to increase performance, reduce server lag, and continuously improve the game until its ready for a final release.
You clearly feel cheated, and that your expectations weren't met. If you've sent us a request for a refund as you mentioned here, then you will receive one. It seems unnecessary to continue to argue over this alpha vs beta definition regarding a game you are no longer going to be playing.
<!--quoteo(post=1838854:date=Mar 26 2011, 03:48 AM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Mar 26 2011, 03:48 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1838854"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We are not trying to trick people into giving us their money. We've been as open and honest as we can regarding the development of this game, acknowledged all the problems with it, and have shared what steps we are currently taking to increase performance, reduce server lag, and continuously improve the game until its ready for a final release.
You clearly feel cheated, and that your expectations weren't met. If you've sent us a request for a refund as you mentioned here, then you will receive one. It seems unnecessary to continue to argue over this alpha vs beta definition regarding a game you are no longer going to be playing.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I received the refund as you stated, and I'm pleasantly surprised. To be honest, I really didn't expect you to administer a refund, and I believe this speaks volumes about your company as a whole. I wish your team the best of luck, and true success. However, for the benefit of the gaming community as a whole, please don't blur the lines of what it means to have alpha, beta, or release candidate software--its damaging to the industry, and creates distrust between end-users and developers.
<!--quoteo(post=1838857:date=Mar 25 2011, 10:16 PM:name=xredx)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xredx @ Mar 25 2011, 10:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1838857"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I received the refund as you stated, and I'm pleasantly surprised. To be honest, I really didn't expect you to administer a refund, and I believe this speaks volumes about your company as a whole. I wish your team the best of luck, and true success. However, for the benefit of the gaming community as a whole, please don't blur the lines of what it means to have alpha, beta, or release candidate software--its damaging to the industry, and creates distrust between end-users and developers.
Take Care, Red<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1838837:date=Mar 26 2011, 07:47 AM:name=luns)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (luns @ Mar 26 2011, 07:47 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1838837"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->the game is BETA, the engine is ALPHA. At least its how it feels for me.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> More likely the other way around. The engine is mostly feature-complete... (sort of. They're still adding some features.) but requires polishing (optimisation). Hence Beta. The game is nowhere near feature-complete. Hence Alpha.
<!--quoteo(post=1838857:date=Mar 25 2011, 10:16 PM:name=xredx)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xredx @ Mar 25 2011, 10:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1838857"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I received the refund as you stated, and I'm pleasantly surprised. To be honest, I really didn't expect you to administer a refund, and I believe this speaks volumes about your company as a whole. I wish your team the best of luck, and true success. However, for the benefit of the gaming community as a whole, please don't blur the lines of what it means to have alpha, beta, or release candidate software--its damaging to the industry, and creates distrust between end-users and developers.
Take Care, Red<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I am pretty pissed that they are calling this a "Beta" But at the same time its going to be an awesome game one day. I have faith that I will get my money's worth within the next year as patches continue to come out.
<!--quoteo(post=1838857:date=Mar 25 2011, 10:16 PM:name=xredx)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xredx @ Mar 25 2011, 10:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1838857"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I received the refund as you stated, and I'm pleasantly surprised. To be honest, I really didn't expect you to administer a refund, and I believe this speaks volumes about your company as a whole. I wish your team the best of luck, and true success. However, for the benefit of the gaming community as a whole, please don't blur the lines of what it means to have alpha, beta, or release candidate software--its damaging to the industry, and creates distrust between end-users and developers.
Take Care, Red<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You could have just waited awhile, submitted bug reports, and play other games......
Comments
So no, missing a chassis doesn't all of a sudden make a car not a car anymore because if you asked people what it was they would still tell you it is a car most likely.
Also, just because you have some idealistic and preconceived notion on what beta is doesn't make it is universally true either. I'm not saying you're wrong necessarily, but arguing based on preconceived notions of this supposed idea of beta is also doesn't make it true either. From my numerous years of being a beta tester, this is beta to me. Maybe the industry is making a social shift in the meaning of the word, but to a lot of people this is still beta as they know it. Are they all of a sudden wrong too?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
FFS. The entire point I was making about the car was to indicate that if something must have a predefined set of variables to = something, then it must have ALL the variables before it can = that thing. For example, assuming a != 0, if A + B = C, then logically B != C and A != C. If we now set A to be some requirement of what beta is, and set B to be another requirement, and we use the value C to represent a beta project, neither A or B alone can = C. Therefore, if A != C, and B != C, then a project cannot be beta unless all requirements are made to make it beta (A and B combined). Real world example: a few posts ago someone claimed that because the project was released to the public it magically became beta. Well, since thats obviously not the only requirement for what constitutes beta, its invalid logic. The same holds true for the poster above that picked out minor aspects in the links above to arrive at the determination that this project was indeed in beta.
As for my "idealistic" notion of what beta is, it basically matches the industry's "idealist" notion. Feature incomplete software isn't beta, period. 10-15 years ago dev's wouldn't have been able to get away with this, and games with glaring problems wouldn't get released--Wolfenstein: Enemy Territory is a great example.
You clearly feel cheated, and that your expectations weren't met. If you've sent us a request for a refund as you mentioned here, then you will receive one. It seems unnecessary to continue to argue over this alpha vs beta definition regarding a game you are no longer going to be playing.
--Cory
You clearly feel cheated, and that your expectations weren't met. If you've sent us a request for a refund as you mentioned here, then you will receive one. It seems unnecessary to continue to argue over this alpha vs beta definition regarding a game you are no longer going to be playing.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I received the refund as you stated, and I'm pleasantly surprised. To be honest, I really didn't expect you to administer a refund, and I believe this speaks volumes about your company as a whole. I wish your team the best of luck, and true success. However, for the benefit of the gaming community as a whole, please don't blur the lines of what it means to have alpha, beta, or release candidate software--its damaging to the industry, and creates distrust between end-users and developers.
Take Care,
Red
Take Care,
Red<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
you will definitely be missed.
More likely the other way around.
The engine is mostly feature-complete... (sort of. They're still adding some features.) but requires polishing (optimisation). Hence Beta.
The game is nowhere near feature-complete. Hence Alpha.
Take Care,
Red<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I am pretty pissed that they are calling this a "Beta" But at the same time its going to be an awesome game one day. I have faith that I will get my money's worth within the next year as patches continue to come out.
Take Care,
Red<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You could have just waited awhile, submitted bug reports, and play other games......
Maybe he will come back......