<!--quoteo(post=1844184:date=May 4 2011, 09:42 PM:name=McGlaspie)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (McGlaspie @ May 4 2011, 09:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1844184"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I have to agree with the OP (in the posts intent). I've come to loath the "Pogo Marine". It feels like the jumping screws with the hit reg/prediction and makes it much harder to land melee attacks. Also, it strikes me as utterly stupid that this Highly Trained, well equipped, badass Space Marine would start jumping like a crazed maniac when ever he gets into combat. I also like how the human-pogo stick doesn't miss a beat when he's trying to aim at stuff. Here is a little exercise for you, grab a gun (.22, BB gun, nerf darts, whatever), go outside and setup a target. Now, start jumping up and down like you've got PCP injected weasels trying to fly up your ass and see if you can get a single hit on the target. Mmm, let's say it is at 40 ft. away from you. Yeah, good luck with that.
Yes yes, NS1/2 isn't about realism. I agree and understand that; however, I would assume that NS would include something resembling common sense.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
While I totally agree, you can't really restrict the rine movement like that without screwing them over in some other area that has nothing to do with combat. I'm thinking the best option is to simply have the skulk's bite work as intended. They can bunnyhop and circle strafe all day so long as skulks are able to leap+bite properly. My mode of attack is to leap+bite then keep running a little ways. You can literally watch the rines do their "Oh Crap it's a Skulk!" dance and fire at the ground while you line up your next leap. But in order for any of that to work, the skulk's bite needs a little more than 14 picometers of range.
Also, you may want to watch this. <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8tblVFUuT8g" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8tblVFUuT8g</a>
Maybe instead of restricting marine movement. A penalty to accuracy could be introduced to marines when jumping? But, I also agree that there are some serious issues with skulk bite range and/or hit box size.
<!--quoteo(post=1844193:date=May 4 2011, 11:26 PM:name=shiv)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (shiv @ May 4 2011, 11:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1844193"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Maybe instead of restricting marine movement. A penalty to accuracy could be introduced to marines when jumping? But, I also agree that there are some serious issues with skulk bite range and/or hit box size.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Now there's a fella that uses his noodle. That sounds like a great idea as well.
It's been said a few times before in this thread, the problem isn't marines jumping so much as it is melee hit detection/lag prediction. This is actually a very common problem with melee attacks in many online games. I'm not positive, but I'm pretty sure that you actually do lose momentum when you jump, so marines are already taking a "movement penalty" per say, akin to how jumping worked in the first ns once they disabled bunny hopping for marines. It was especially apparent in the engine test, where if you jumped without holding down forward, you literally stopped midair. However, recently i was jumping around as a skulk and seemed to note the same jumping momentum loss. I think this is probably due to the extra "stickiness" skulks now have for walls. It's like the walls are made of magnets and the skulks are made of iron. I think they need to tone down the stickiness a tad, because now it seems as if you're slowed down in tight spaces unless you're holding crouch.
Hmm, this about having to aim at the center of things to hit them (this certainly seems to be the case with hydras) reminds me of the NS1 bug where the hull was used as hitbox for some reason, so hidden skulks could be killed by shooting the air above them, and onos was stupidly hard to kill until you figured out where to aim...
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
its a two part issue that makes jumping rines even something worth posting about: 1. skulks are huge now 2. skulks are slower now with less air control
<!--quoteo(post=1844025:date=May 4 2011, 01:51 PM:name=jkflipflop)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jkflipflop @ May 4 2011, 01:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1844025"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->True, true. Looking back on it I guess this could have been all of us biting each other and essentially blocking bites. This was with the old 175. But it only takes 3 bites at the start of a match to kill a rine, and we were all biting at his feet for a good while as he hacked the hive to death from 100% all the way down to 0 without dying. He knew what he was doing, too since he just straight rushed the hive from the get-go while all his other buddies were doing other things.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I played 4 games the other day where we did the exact same thing, 2 times as Aliens we rushed the marines and took the whole base down in the first 2 mins of the game, 2 times are Marines, we rushed the hive and took it down with-in 2 mins as well. Both times the screams of HACKS and BUGGED GAME were flying wild.
I personally have had games where as a skulk I was able to kill 5 Marines in 1 go, that must have looked to them like I was invincible.
As the server bogs down more, it gets incredibly more difficult to hit marines. However, when the game is running smooth I have no problem killing marines as a skulk. I recommend jumping/leaping while biting.
swalkSay hello to my little friend.Join Date: 2011-01-20Member: 78384Members, Squad Five Blue
Marine movement still has a lot of work that needs to be done, and i'm pretty sure that UWE knows about this. I think they will decrease movement speed, for about a half second, when you land on the ground after jumping. That seems like a good way to deal with "space" spamming marines.
Just a heads up to UWE, this report might be relevant for the bouncing hive axing marines issue. <a href="http://getsatisfaction.com/unknownworlds/topics/_176_melee_attacks_blocked_by_props" target="_blank">http://getsatisfaction.com/unknownworlds/t...locked_by_props</a>
Also my reply on this, for hit detection when moving problems: <a href="http://getsatisfaction.com/unknownworlds/topics/_176_skulk_hit_registration_seems_broken_against_bouncing_marines" target="_blank">http://getsatisfaction.com/unknownworlds/t...ouncing_marines</a>
Fix: The TSA went through extensive preparations and horrendous training regimens before being qualified for operations. Special futuristic equipment was developed to push the physical limits and strengthen the marines. With the use of this so called jump rope marines would learn how to jump multiple times in succession, changing combat forever.
matsoMaster of PatchesJoin Date: 2002-11-05Member: 7000Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Shadow, NS2 Community Developer
Unfortunately, pretty much nothing to do with hitting things will get any reliable data until the server runs at 20+ ticks all the time, every time. Until then, the server induced lag will screw all melee users so hard its just not funny. Trying to discuss how hard it is to hit something when the server is running at 7 fps is just silly... of course its hard - the marines are basically teleporting in random directions all the time, so there is no way you can actually use the aliens as intended.
<!--quoteo(post=1844913:date=May 8 2011, 07:18 PM:name=matso)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (matso @ May 8 2011, 07:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1844913"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Unfortunately, pretty much nothing to do with hitting things will get any reliable data until the server runs at 20+ ticks all the time, every time. Until then, the server induced lag will screw all melee users so hard its just not funny. Trying to discuss how hard it is to hit something when the server is running at 7 fps is just silly... of course its hard - the marines are basically teleporting in random directions all the time, so there is no way you can actually use the aliens as intended.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We're talking about servers that are running at a decent speed. We've also shown that it has nothing to do with the server speed, but with the skulk's hitbox.
Right now, a big possibility of the issues we're seeing with aliens not being able to attack jumping marines is that the hitbox registration for the marines is off. UWE is aware of the issue. Maybe soon, a fix will be implemented, but it's probably not top priority, as bugs are the main priority. Little things here and there will improve drastically over time.. just have to have patience.
<!--quoteo(post=1844970:date=May 9 2011, 05:25 PM:name=aCId_rAIn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (aCId_rAIn @ May 9 2011, 05:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1844970"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Right now, a big possibility of the issues we're seeing with aliens not being able to attack jumping marines is that the hitbox registration for the marines is off. UWE is aware of the issue. Maybe soon, a fix will be implemented, but it's probably not top priority, as bugs are the main priority. Little things here and there will improve drastically over time.. just have to have patience.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Hitbox reg issues definately fall into the "bug" category, and Max has indicated some changes to skulk biting will be going into the next build.
<!--quoteo(post=1844996:date=May 9 2011, 07:42 PM:name=Rokiyo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Rokiyo @ May 9 2011, 07:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1844996"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hitbox reg issues definately fall into the "bug" category, and Max has indicated some changes to skulk biting will be going into the next build.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> As far as i am aware there are no hitboxes in NS2 the actual display mesh is used for hit detection..
I'm not 100% sure but perhaps on of the dev's can step in :)
That's very fancy tech wise. But maybe old school hitboxes were better here. Not only should this reduce the number of calculations for hit detection, it also makes it easier to hit at all. I don't think we need perfect accuracy, a rough approximation is good enough given the problems of network lag, prediction etc.
<!--quoteo(post=1845006:date=May 9 2011, 08:20 PM:name=NurEinMensch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NurEinMensch @ May 9 2011, 08:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1845006"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That's very fancy tech wise. But maybe old school hitboxes were better here. Not only should this reduce the number of calculations for hit detection, it also makes it easier to hit at all. I don't think we need perfect accuracy, a rough approximation is good enough given the problems of network lag, prediction etc.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Performance is completely negligible really using old school hit boxes would be more work cause you need to model and rig extra geometry might even be worse performance given your skinning more meshes.
AsranielJoin Date: 2002-06-03Member: 724Members, Playtest Lead, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Retired Community Developer
I'm pretty sure it works correctly code wise. The model mesh is used and not a hitbox. We tested it and couldn't find any obvious problems. But i admit that testing the hit detection during an animation, like jumping, is tricky.
The problem is just a combination of a smaller bitebox and some lag. Im sure both will be adressed in future patches.
By the way, you can test this in a lag free enviroment, a simple nearly empty server will usually do.
Comments
Yes yes, NS1/2 isn't about realism. I agree and understand that; however, I would assume that NS would include something resembling common sense.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
While I totally agree, you can't really restrict the rine movement like that without screwing them over in some other area that has nothing to do with combat. I'm thinking the best option is to simply have the skulk's bite work as intended. They can bunnyhop and circle strafe all day so long as skulks are able to leap+bite properly. My mode of attack is to leap+bite then keep running a little ways. You can literally watch the rines do their "Oh Crap it's a Skulk!" dance and fire at the ground while you line up your next leap. But in order for any of that to work, the skulk's bite needs a little more than 14 picometers of range.
Also, you may want to watch this. <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8tblVFUuT8g" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8tblVFUuT8g</a>
Now there's a fella that uses his noodle. That sounds like a great idea as well.
1. skulks are huge now
2. skulks are slower now with less air control
I played 4 games the other day where we did the exact same thing, 2 times as Aliens we rushed the marines and took the whole base down in the first 2 mins of the game, 2 times are Marines, we rushed the hive and took it down with-in 2 mins as well. Both times the screams of HACKS and BUGGED GAME were flying wild.
I personally have had games where as a skulk I was able to kill 5 Marines in 1 go, that must have looked to them like I was invincible.
<a href="http://getsatisfaction.com/unknownworlds/topics/_176_melee_attacks_blocked_by_props" target="_blank">http://getsatisfaction.com/unknownworlds/t...locked_by_props</a>
Also my reply on this, for hit detection when moving problems:
<a href="http://getsatisfaction.com/unknownworlds/topics/_176_skulk_hit_registration_seems_broken_against_bouncing_marines" target="_blank">http://getsatisfaction.com/unknownworlds/t...ouncing_marines</a>
We're talking about servers that are running at a decent speed. We've also shown that it has nothing to do with the server speed, but with the skulk's hitbox.
As far as i am aware there are no hitboxes in NS2 the actual display mesh is used for hit detection..
I'm not 100% sure but perhaps on of the dev's can step in :)
The problem is just a combination of a smaller bitebox and some lag. Im sure both will be adressed in future patches.
By the way, you can test this in a lag free enviroment, a simple nearly empty server will usually do.