1 Base for teching up.
OPIE
Join Date: 2002-11-12 Member: 8343Members
Join Date: 2002-11-12 Member: 8343Members
<div class="IPBDescription">First thoughts and/or Constructive Criticism/Praise</div>Okay I am usually not a new topic starter on changes like this. But having just gotten out of about a 90-120 minute game as the marine commander I did notice some things.
Now this is a new change but obviously a big one and a game play changer. So it still needs some time to see how it fleshes out but I figured I might as well start the thread so we can get some constructive feed back to the devs and see if this is a good idea or not.
<u><b>Pros:</b></u>
-Enables marines and aliens to reach higher tiers regardless of the number of hives/chairs
-Speeds up game play and promotes rushing more frequently
-Removes feeling of desperation on holding a tech point until chair can be dropped (mostly marines here as aliens can expand rather quickly)
-Balances out teams of less skilled players VS more skilled players by allowing for access to better weapons/upgrades earlier.
<u><b>Cons:</b></u>
-Almost removes expanding game play element completely for Marines depending on current situation
-Promotes Rambo players. (Weapons/upgrades early pulls away from team unification. Again more Marine side because Aliens are a bit more independent just like in NS1)
-Commander now has less to do and now feels like less of an RTS and more of a med pack/ammo spammer
-Removes a vital Alien advantage to defeating marines (Now all marines have to do is bunker down until they receive their upgrades. If aliens could prevent them from expanding to Tier 2 it was a game winner.)
Alright with just a few pros and cons listed hopefully more of you add some. While I was commanding I couldn't help but feel a little relieved that I didn't have to worry about getting a second chair up and having enough resources to upgrade the main chair. Countless times I've had people who were either new or just plain stupid not listen to me at all and would just run about where ever they pleased and the second chair being built would fall victim to that initial skulk rush and poof the game was over with.
I also noticed that every time we would make a push the team would ask "Do we want this tech point?" "Nah it would only stop them from making another hive lets use the resources for something better. This concerned me a little. Everyone was focused on getting upgraded immediately and as fast as possible. The game was pretty even and even if we tried to expand it just seemed like it was in vein either by having to recycle or no one wanting to because it just made no sense to any more.
I still understand the advantage to having multiple bases and many IP's but it just seemed almost useless to do so. We ended up building a ton of sentries that even two fades would of had trouble getting into the base and out alive and everyone just pushed on and on. It was a never ending cycle of Spawn, run, kill or be killed....rinse and repeat. This was the initial mentality from the get go knowing we no longer needed another chair. We built the resource towers and threw in an armory where we needed to but why waste 20 resources on a chair... it made further sense not to so if one of the alien members decided to have a hissy fit they couldn't come over and recycle everything. So more turrets were built with more armories and power packs.
It just seemed like a very vital aspect to NS2 was now missing. Trust me I enjoyed knowing that some lame little 7 year old couldn't switch sides and recycle everything....but at the same time all I did was spam med packs and ammo rather then worry about other things on the map....I literally had nothing to do.
I still think this change is new and we need to see how it works out further but like I said I figure I would at least get the discussion rolling on this one. How do the other commanders out there feel about this.
Please keep this constructive and mature.
Now this is a new change but obviously a big one and a game play changer. So it still needs some time to see how it fleshes out but I figured I might as well start the thread so we can get some constructive feed back to the devs and see if this is a good idea or not.
<u><b>Pros:</b></u>
-Enables marines and aliens to reach higher tiers regardless of the number of hives/chairs
-Speeds up game play and promotes rushing more frequently
-Removes feeling of desperation on holding a tech point until chair can be dropped (mostly marines here as aliens can expand rather quickly)
-Balances out teams of less skilled players VS more skilled players by allowing for access to better weapons/upgrades earlier.
<u><b>Cons:</b></u>
-Almost removes expanding game play element completely for Marines depending on current situation
-Promotes Rambo players. (Weapons/upgrades early pulls away from team unification. Again more Marine side because Aliens are a bit more independent just like in NS1)
-Commander now has less to do and now feels like less of an RTS and more of a med pack/ammo spammer
-Removes a vital Alien advantage to defeating marines (Now all marines have to do is bunker down until they receive their upgrades. If aliens could prevent them from expanding to Tier 2 it was a game winner.)
Alright with just a few pros and cons listed hopefully more of you add some. While I was commanding I couldn't help but feel a little relieved that I didn't have to worry about getting a second chair up and having enough resources to upgrade the main chair. Countless times I've had people who were either new or just plain stupid not listen to me at all and would just run about where ever they pleased and the second chair being built would fall victim to that initial skulk rush and poof the game was over with.
I also noticed that every time we would make a push the team would ask "Do we want this tech point?" "Nah it would only stop them from making another hive lets use the resources for something better. This concerned me a little. Everyone was focused on getting upgraded immediately and as fast as possible. The game was pretty even and even if we tried to expand it just seemed like it was in vein either by having to recycle or no one wanting to because it just made no sense to any more.
I still understand the advantage to having multiple bases and many IP's but it just seemed almost useless to do so. We ended up building a ton of sentries that even two fades would of had trouble getting into the base and out alive and everyone just pushed on and on. It was a never ending cycle of Spawn, run, kill or be killed....rinse and repeat. This was the initial mentality from the get go knowing we no longer needed another chair. We built the resource towers and threw in an armory where we needed to but why waste 20 resources on a chair... it made further sense not to so if one of the alien members decided to have a hissy fit they couldn't come over and recycle everything. So more turrets were built with more armories and power packs.
It just seemed like a very vital aspect to NS2 was now missing. Trust me I enjoyed knowing that some lame little 7 year old couldn't switch sides and recycle everything....but at the same time all I did was spam med packs and ammo rather then worry about other things on the map....I literally had nothing to do.
I still think this change is new and we need to see how it works out further but like I said I figure I would at least get the discussion rolling on this one. How do the other commanders out there feel about this.
Please keep this constructive and mature.
Comments
In addition to giving a reason for building on tech points, it also opens up for stuff like buying an analyzer at the armory, and then run a scan on alien bodies/killed structures to produce more tech points. Diminishing returns, of course ... after four or five analyzed skulks, it wouldn't be worth spending any more time on skulks. The first Onos analyzed would give a bigger boost, of course...
The equivalent for aliens would be for a gorge to build something on top of a marine body that slowly assimilates it... or dragging a corpse back to a hive and let the hive have it. Hive research progress can be detected by the pile of half-digested marine bones and armor below the hive ... :-)
This would give an advantage to the side actually holding the field of battle after an encounter.
In addition to giving a reason for building on tech points, it also opens up for stuff like buying an analyzer at the armory, and then run a scan on alien bodies/killed structures to produce more tech points. Diminishing returns, of course ... after four or five analyzed skulks, it wouldn't be worth spending any more time on skulks. The first Onos analyzed would give a bigger boost, of course...
The equivalent for aliens would be for a gorge to build something on top of a marine body that slowly assimilates it... or dragging a corpse back to a hive and let the hive have it. Hive research progress can be detected by the pile of half-digested marine bones and armor below the hive ... :-)
This would give an advantage to the side actually holding the field of battle after an encounter.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I could go with something like this, especially if it let you use kills for tech points that way a team could still hold off the enemies onslaught and tech up at the same time. Would this replace team res completely though or would you need both a certain amount of res and a certain amount of tech points to build something? If so I worry it might get a little convoluted.
They could also encourage building multiple chairs and implementing a spawn system where you get to choose which point you want to spawn at. Right now it's random and since phase gates are not in yet that does disrupt the flow of things. Even choosing your point wouldn't make phase gates obsolete they would still have many functions in traveling long distances in an instant.
I think this would promote expansion a lot more and promote holding tech points. Right now Rock Down and Tram are considered small maps. Well I would consider Tram to be sort of inbetween small to medium in term of size. The larger upcoming maps I could see this working extremely well in terms of holding territories.
also wht do you think about some kind of upkeep like in warcraft 3. it should work the opposite way of wc3. so if you have caaptured a lot of techpoints the upkeep reduces and e.g. your resflow speeds up or some different benefit.
cheers
I was skeptical at 1st but it ended making perfect sense the more I thought about it. If we all vote for that idea we should get the devs' attention (providing you agree with it of course... which you SHOULD!).
Ehh, we don't want to encourage turtling, even if it would be risky in practice since you wouldn't have much resources for equipment.
<b>Tech nodes produce team resources.</b> <u>Res nodes produce personal resources.</u> (Alternatively, resource towers also produce team resources, but at a much lower rate, say one quarter.)
Holding more tech nodes would mean you can tech up much more quickly, as team resources are required for researches (and structures). Holding more resource nodes means you have a steady flow of weapons, equipment and medpacks (or life-forms and hydras if you're on the alien side). This encourages expanding, and it encourages expanding in a way hearkening back to the classic RTS - expanding for (critical) resources.
This also solves the last-tech-node, no resource towers, situation. Spawning, penniless players would have to make do with their skulk or rifle, but with the steady team resource income they can continue to build new structures or research upgrades - with some strong defending, they can bide their time for a comeback (even if it's only short-lived).
A few other changes may be required, such as lowering the cost of structures and researches.
Perhaps rename team resources to "technology points" a la matso's suggestion. Personal resources are already known as just "resources", so that can stay.
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=113423" target="_blank">Discuss this idea in depth.</a>
(Afterthought)
I also imagine a sequential lifeform unlocking path for the alien team. For example
* skulk available from the start, allowed to unlock gorges
* 5 team res to unlock gorge (or maybe available from the start), allows you to unlock lerks
* 10 team res to unlock lerks, allows you to unlock fades
* 20 team res to unlock fades, allows you to unlock onos
* 40 team res to unlock onos
so it would require a total of 75 team res to unlock the onos, which makes it more likely to be a late-game venture.
If UWE wants to make marine expansions worthwhile again, I would do the following
1. Allow 1st comm to lock other CS's to prevent people from entering (this is the #1 reason why I don't like to build 2nd, 3rd, etc. comm stations)
2. Either greatly reduce the cost of all marine structures and research or increase the res flow rate. Building a proper expansion is so expensive (CS: 20, IP: 20, armory: 10, at least 2 sentries: 40, total = 100 TRes) that is only worthwhile once you have nothing else to spend the TRes on.
Aliens just have to place a hive and can spent the rest on defensive structures...
Also:
Dont get me started on the current di system - it sucks to be forced researching fts, and it sucks that it takes so long to get it and that it takes ages to kill one di patch.
Its not that marines like to bunker, but there isnt much you can do ~ after 15min the whole map is covered in di.
I mean even on tram I would try to build a second base in elevator transfer just because it's good to have the option of spawning there. Yes at first I would probably focus on teching up, but after a point it becomes desirable to expand.
It's also possible that I might relocate somewhere right off the bat, especially once infestation becomes destroyable with rifles. So there is a good reason to capture other tech points at any stage of the game, it just isn't the only option, which I think is fine honestly.
I mean even on tram I would try to build a second base in elevator transfer just because it's good to have the option of spawning there. Yes at first I would probably focus on teching up, but after a point it becomes desirable to expand.
It's also possible that I might relocate somewhere right off the bat, especially once infestation becomes destroyable with rifles. So there is a good reason to capture other tech points at any stage of the game, it just isn't the only option, which I think is fine honestly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The first part (multiple spawns) is bad because you can't choose your spawn location. As marine comm, most likely all of your valuable structures (CF/CC, upgraded armory, upgraded RT, etc.) are in marine start. Since sentries are prohibitively expensive, you need to rely on your marines to defend at least part of the time. Therefore, you want them to always (or almost always) spawn in marine start, making IPs outside of marine start counterproductive.
The second part (relocation) is bad because only marine/alien start have res nodes in the same room as tech nodes. Its much easier to defend this res node than any others because your aren't splitting your defenses. The worst part is that this having only 2 tech/res node combo is part of the official mapping guidelines, so we can expect all official maps to be similarly bad with regards to relocation.
25% At game start and additional 25% per Command Station. Capping off at 4 tech points to get maximum research capacity.
If you had tech and upgrades tied to structures it would add incentive to control more territory so you could get back on your feet faster.
The second part (relocation) is bad because only marine/alien start have res nodes in the same room as tech nodes. Its much easier to defend this res node than any others because your aren't splitting your defenses. The worst part is that this having only 2 tech/res node combo is part of the official mapping guidelines, so we can expect all official maps to be similarly bad with regards to relocation.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I can fairly easily duplicate structures in the second base, or even spread them out a bit. It's a bit risky yes but generally I find the increased mobility to be preferable. It'll become more helpful when phase gates are in.
I generally find that setting up a forward base is actually a good defense in and of itself, aliens tend to attack it rather than marine start, making marine start (and everything betwen it and your forward base) subsequently much easier to defend.
All the 177 games I've played consist of the marine team just sitting in base and defending a few res nodes, tech up, then win with superior technology. Not much the aliens can do to stop it (no longer can you stop the marines from teching up by controlling tech points).
Except it was usually marines lose because they only get T2 technology and that's enough to stalemate for an hour until people get bored.
Honestly aliens push across the map and kill marines then marines push across the map and kill aliens sounds like a big improvement.
Like a massive res drip multiplier.
0 tech = no flow...game over unless a miracle happens
1 tech = 1 point per tick
2 tech = 50 points per tick
3 tech = 100 points per tick
In fact give them an initial rush just for capping a tech point (100 points)...even have the computer shout at you Tech 2 achieved.
(No I don't know the current numbers, this was simply to present the idea)
Higher level weapons and aliens would have such a price tag you would not see them unless the team had been saving
(a viable strategy...save then push...it's like buying a car)
Sure you may be ABLE to upgrade so you can buy shotguns, lerks, flamethrowers, and fades
But you can't afford them
(in fact no one can afford anything)
because you only have the tech point GIVEN to you... time to move out of mom's basement into the wide wide world.
Since the commander can't buy pretty buildings
and the team can't buy pretty weapons
they are bound together to GET the tech.
(This would take a stab at eliminating the 'detachment problem')
The relative costs of some structures do seem a bit off (ridiculous). As weak and long to recover as RTs are, I think they should be dropped to 10. And I would expect the rarely built IP to be cheaper than the Armory that typically sees a lot of duplication.
I also really like Harimau's suggestion. I would lament not seeing the current direction carried through, but I definitely think it has the potential to work.
Yes, but at least the marines had to push out to build another CC, now they don't. That's why I said we should be moving the total opposite direction and require the marines to hold their CCs (instead of just recycling them) to enjoy the benefits of tier 2 tech. This would promote good fights in all areas of the map, not just the starting tech points.
I generally find that setting up a forward base is actually a good defense in and of itself, aliens tend to attack it rather than marine start, making marine start (and everything betwen it and your forward base) subsequently much easier to defend.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I suppose this is a matter of timing. I do the same thing, but only during late game after I've researched most tech (and have nothing else to spend TRes on). The problem is that relocation or expanding early in the match is a terrible idea because it delays the time till you get your most important tech (flamethrower, grenade launcher, armor1/2). Most of the matches I've played hinge on how quickly marines get flamethrower (where the sooner the better). If you wait too long, you'll be overrun with fades and DI with little hope of a comeback.
This is my biggest grief. Weapon Tech seems to be overpowered by comparison to other strategies. Granted we're still missing most of everything that isn't weapon technology; I just really hope that we come to find multiple equally viable strategies that don't necessarily require that the first researches be weapons.
* <!--coloro:#00FF00--><span style="color:#00FF00"><!--/coloro--><b>Tech nodes only provide team resources only;</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> <i>team resources are required for structures and researches (as they are now). Rename team resources to e.g. "technology".</i>
* <!--coloro:#00FF00--><span style="color:#00FF00"><!--/coloro--><b>Res nodes only provide personal resources only;</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> <i>personal resources are required for life-forms, ammo/medpacks and equipment (as they are now). Personal resources already known simply as "resources", so no change.</i>
...
<!--quoteo(post=1845569:date=May 12 2011, 08:21 AM:name=KuBaN)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KuBaN @ May 12 2011, 08:21 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1845569"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is my biggest grief. Weapon Tech seems to be overpowered by comparison to other strategies. Granted we're still missing most of everything that isn't weapon technology; I just really hope that we come to find multiple equally viable strategies that don't necessarily require that the first researches be weapons.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm with you on this. I hope this changes.
* <!--coloro:#00FF00--><span style="color:#00FF00"><!--/coloro--><b>Res nodes only provide personal resources only;</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> <i>personal resources are required for life-forms, ammo/medpacks and equipment (as they are now). Personal resources already known simply as "resources", so no change.</i><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's an interesting idea but I see one flaw on it.
Commanders and Units will be divided on what units should be built.
Units want more Res Nodes
Commanders want more Tech Nodes (the res drip seems excruciating slow as a commander.)
There is not enough need on both ends...and commanders make the decision.
No, it would make the marines lose constantly.
Unless you plan to make marines just as mobile as aliens you cannot expect them to hold equal amounts of land throughout the game.
The current system makes sense to me, marines expand when they want the mobility and redundancy, aliens expand because it helps them control the map with infestation.
There are reasons for marines to expand, just not right off the bat. At the start marines I think will favour relocation as their only form of expansion, then once they get set up, THEN they can start thinking about new bases.
Just as in NS1 really.
* <!--coloro:#00FF00--><span style="color:#00FF00"><!--/coloro--><b>Res nodes only provide personal resources only;</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> <i>personal resources are required for life-forms, ammo/medpacks and equipment (as they are now). Personal resources already known simply as "resources", so no change.</i><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's an interesting idea but I see one flaw on it.
Commanders and Units will be divided on what units should be built.
Units want more Res Nodes
Commanders want more Tech Nodes (the res drip seems excruciating slow as a commander.)
There is not enough need on both ends...and commanders make the decision.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't see that as an issue, because tech nodes will be a much more valuable asset, and require a much larger investment. The game would still progress with you taking res nodes more often than tech nodes, to allow for a steady stream of "units", or 'consumables' (life-forms, equipment, ammo/medpack, whatever else gets added). The game will progress with a much more Starcraft-like expansion dynamic.
And in the end, you just have to trust that the commander knows best and follow his directives* - if his marines are running around with rifles while the aliens are slaughtering them with fades because his team doesn't have enough personal resource income, then he'll know (or learn) to find the right balance. "Drop a res tower" becomes the new "drop a shotty".
*or eject.
And <b>of course</b> the numbers will have to be balanced before release, but that was going to have to be the case regardless of what system is in place. Part of my suggestion (detailed version) was to lower research/structure costs to account for the decreased (on average) early-game income, but you could flip it the other way and simply increase tech-point income. As it is, there is an unreasonable abundance of personal res, so that needed to be reduced anyway.
Then it will be a perfectly good idea to build your base across two locations. To marines they're right next door, to aliens they might be on opposite sides of the level, it becomes very easy for marines to defend, but requires aliens to split up. It also gives marines the option of kitting up in safety before they go off to defend once they respawn.
That happens regardless, but in the end the Commander makes the decision. It's his choice, his responsibility, his burden if it leads his team to fail.
<!--quoteo(post=1845716:date=May 12 2011, 11:18 AM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ May 12 2011, 11:18 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1845716"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No, it would make the marines lose constantly.
Unless you plan to make marines just as mobile as aliens you cannot expect them to hold equal amounts of land throughout the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Phase Gates
I am not sure if this is the case at the moment but I am sure that this was the case in NS1.