Do You Consider The Kharaa Overpowered?

belal42 · December 2002

<div class="IPBDescription">Honestly now...</div> I've been playing Ns since 1.1, ever since Metafilter linked it. I must say, I'm an addict. I started playing with guys in my dorm, but only two of them stuck with it...so naturally we did 2 marines on 1 alien. Me.

Now those guys sucked and I never lost to them...but I've noticed the trend in just about every single public server game Ive ever played. I can count on one hand the number of times marines have won a map.

This isn't a balance issue, I'm not calling for any changes...but think to yourselves? Are you overpowered? When you get on a winning skulk rush, do you feel that pang of guilt? When your team of fades and lerks kills server HA/HMG marines...don't you think to yourself: "Wow, this is easy."

'Coz I don't want to be the only guilty Kharaa <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='wink.gif'>

littlewild · December 2002

I didn't know there is a version 1.1, I always thought NS started with 1.0 and it is at version 1.03 now.
Concerning the Kharaa being over powered, please refer to the abundant threads avaliable at General discussion. It is all about who gets 2 hives first.

Btw, how much fun do you get out of playing 2 v 1 NS? Kinda sad isn't it? Get some bots or something.

skulkswerenerfed · December 2002

right now aliens are underpowered, marines ALWAYS win unless marines lack skill and or a commander thats not a moron

if you are losing as marines you or your teammates suck

TheGunslinger · December 2002

Well, a lot falls into the hands of the commander. When I am marine I kill Kharaa like mad, follow the commander's orders and don't waste his resources... but the success of the game is still untimatly in his hands.

As the Kharaa, I have single handedly taken out turret farms countless times. This is the strength of the Kharaa on the pub servers.

In organized play, however, like a clan war... Well, things are a bit different.

sekdar · December 2002

ive been playing ns, mainly aliens, since 1.01 and i do think they are overpowered. ive played a few hundred games by now and i can count on one hand the number of times ive seen marines win, even against skilled marines.

the three things that stand out in my mind:

the economy is in the favor of the aliens. i.e. a single gorge can traverse the map and drop nodes that will build themselves, while it takes the coordination of 2 marine players (comm and builder) to build one structure. If you don't believe the economy is so horribly tilted, why is it that alien teams can so often get more than half a dozen fades and ten walls of lame, and still have enough resources to go fade immediately after the first few die?

1 fade with adrenaline and acid rocket can kill an entire team of marines in about 2-3 seconds with only minor damage sustained. i do it all the time.

aliens have far easier access to healing with their hives, D chambers, and gorges, while the marines have to rely entirely on the commander giving health/welders (would be like aliens relying entirely on gorges for healing).

just my opinion. flame away.

BlueGhost · December 2002

Its really only unbalanced because of the problems with commanding we're having ATM, newbie coms typically spend too much res on defence and don't have any sort of plan of attack to go agressive, agressive marines can quite easily sneak in and siege the aliens first hive if they're well organized.

I think things will improve as the average commanding and playing ability improves on the marines side, ATM the aliens average weakness is offset by the few godly players while the few godly players on marine are generally eather not good coms or not prepaird to com.

BlueGhost

Rokiyo · December 2002

another thing is that aliens seem to be designed to have a fair fight when out-numbered. Considering all the rambos and lack of waypointing causing many marines-kharaa encounters to be 1 vs 1, it's no surprise that the aliens are doing better.

Considering that the aliens are rarely fighting together (and the marines SHOULD be together BECAUSE of the comm), I think it was a fair assumption to base the game balance on.

Good things take time. Just lets see how it goes.

Fades have already been beefed up majorly, and now we are getting ppl wanting to bring them back down again. Either way, soon enough people will learn some little secret about playing as marines, and the aliens will seem underpowered again...

MrBatman · December 2002

Marines and Aliens win about evenly on the server I play... although the marines are winning more and more.

Molog · December 2002

Kharaa are weak with one hive and undefeatable with two hives. So it's all about getting the second hive secure before the marines manage to.

ShadowXOR · December 2002

Khaara are overpowered, slightly.

MrBatman · December 2002

kharaa are <i>not</i> undefeatable with two hives.

matso · December 2002

IMO, the balance is like this:

1. Average marines beats sucky alliens.
2. Sucky aliens beats sucky marines.
3. Good marines beats good aliens team if the teamsize is >8-9, the other way around if <6-7.

Most of the percived power for aliens on pub servers is due to #2.

Hozart1 · December 2002

The game is balanced, two hive aliens is not the end of the game.
I've played a game where I was marine and my team was organized. The enemy team was a bunch of clan guys working together(meaning they were organized too).
Here's how it played: Fades would have umbra from lerk with a gorge healing them at the same time. We had three heavies on the 7 man team, me and 2 others. Now the trick here was, one heavy would have a grenade launcher to kill the lerk and gorge or scare them away. While they were being scared away we pushed forward. Keeping up the pressure, with grenade pushing them back.
During this, we had a phase gate in the Archiving hive, just a phase gate. Everytime it was under attack, the commander would tell us and we'd all go through (very organized and people listened very well).
Bottom line: We ended up winning the game, it took about 3 hours, no one on the team asked for hmgs and ha, we played well, so did the clan team.

So don't say the game is unbalanced cuz your team is noobed or something

SoulSkorpion · December 2002

I don't think Kharaa are overpowered, but the way the game works means that you get some strange things happening. These are the major differences:

One very good Kharaa player can make a HUGE difference to their team, whereas individual skill with marines doesn't count for so much.

The commander has to not only be competent (ie, have a clue, know where the controls are and how to use them) but be GOOD at RTS games. Further, they carry the weight of success or failiure almost absolutely. On the other hand, the responsibility on the Kharaa side is divided amongst all the Gorges, it's much harder for a Gorge to screw his team resource-wise, and not so much rests on the builders.

The Kharaa are not overpowered, it's just that the marines are... fragile. The marine commander must be a better strategist than the best strategists on the Kharaa side, and the marines HAVE to be accurate and battle-savvy just to keep up. However, a Kharaa that doesn't know what he's doing in a fight is still dead meat.

rebo · December 2002

Aliens have no counter to early hive rushes by marines, due to low respawn times. Aliens therefore always lose if two good and even match teams play.

Nightwind · December 2002

I agree with matso, more players == more marine wins.

Apart from that on public servers the alien side is more "fault tolerant" than the marines. If you got a newbie commander, you have lost. Period. If you have one newbie gorge, one or two others can more or less compensate, although each bad gorge slows down alien expansion greatly.

If you face more than 8-9 experienced marines rushing you have utterly lost, too. Yesterday I experienced a game with 22 players where the commander had 2 guys protecting their base and 9 marines just rushed our hive. No freaking way you could stop them, and once they killed our main force, every respawning alien was killed instantly, while the commander just dropped ammo and health. The problem for aliens in large game with one hive is the respawn delay, if many aliens die within a short period of time it takes eternally to respawn all.

Hozart1 · December 2002

Yes, marine rushes are very hard to counter in larger games, with 3 infantry portals and phase gates, marines have the upper hand. The only way my team and I defeated rushing marines was by hit and run: run up, kill the guy in the back, run away, because no one wants to wait 3 minutes to spawn.
But when they put up the phase gate we had some serious problems, good thing the marines were noobs. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'>

MeltedSnowman · December 2002

The thing is:

Marines can run up right outside the first hive, build a CC and eight(!) infantry portals, and just sucide-rush the hive to death.

When this has happened, I've only seen the aliens win once.

Marines have the advantage of spawn-rate, if they choose to use it.

While a single lerk is capable of taking out an undefended turret farm, that lone lerk won't last long if there are marines defending.

I really don't think the Kharaa are overpowered. Nor do I really think the marines are overpowered. It's a fairly even game with subtle differences to each side.

Ardesco · December 2002

Being a frequent poster on the frontiersman strategy forum, I decided to mosey down over here and give my opinions.

I think the marines are highly overpowered.

Why?

As a commander, I can list possible, countless strategies that the marines can employ early on to stop the alien menance.
The aliens almost always have a set build order early on. It's so amazingly predictable to see alien structures at certain places and locations; the only time when aliens mix that up is for early towers near the marine main; and that eventually ends up just being a waste of resources (although it could buy the aliens much-needed time).

An alien rush doesn't work as well as a marine rush. The reason is that the followthrough that marines have upon instantly respawning upon one of their 2-3 infantry portals makes them faster to return to the fight than a skulk respawning from the single hive.

Marines can generally beat back 2nd hive aliens if they have the right stuff:
Enough nodes for equipment every once in a while
heavy armor, hmgs, and second level upgrades.

Unless your marines are total idiots, this generally tips the balance of power in favor of the marines in order for them to take the second hive.

Also, contrary to popular opinion, a good commander CAN overcome the hinderances of crappy marines, whether it be thru force of command, encouragement, etc. If you're persistant enough, and find the right buttons to push, you can make a marine a better player to do what you want him to do.

There are most reasons, but I'm interested in hearing some feedback before I say any more.

I'm encouraging aliens to become a tad stronger in the next patch!

matso · December 2002

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (rebo @ Dec 15 2002, 01:22 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Aliens have no counter to early hive rushes by marines, due to low respawn times. Aliens therefore always lose if two good and even match teams play.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Unless the team sizes are small (<6-7), which avoids most of the problems of the fixed spawn rate.

BattleTech · December 2002

I do think that Skulk and Lerk bite's should have randomized damage..
Such as 35-75 damage a bite .. depending on hit location..

Because, I doubt 2 bite's to a leg is going to kill you.. or even 2 bite's to the hand.
It should be, 1 bite to the head, 2 for the upper chest, 3 for the lower torso.. 4 for pelvis and 5 for arms/legs, instant death for the balls. =D

porp · December 2002

Randomized bite damage? That doesn't really make any sense. At around 50 points per bite, <i>anywhere</i> a dog-alien with huge teeth bites you, you will be going down. Two bites to the leg means you can't even stand up, so you might as well be dead. Two bites to the abdomen, and your rib cage is probably smashed. Et cetera.

Mradyfist · December 2002

The way I see it, marines only need one really crappy player to ruin their team, but that player has to be in the commander seat, which it is possible to boot them from. Aliens, on the other hand, need <i>x</i> crappy players, where <i>x</i>=number of gorges you should have on your team + 1. And although these players all have to be gorges, they also can't be booted out of the gorge "seat", unfortunately. Plus, most of the games I've played shouldn't really have had more than 1 gorge. It's incredible how fast you can get three hives up if you're the only gorge on the team, and who gives a damn about defenses when you have three hives spawning out fades and onii like nobody's business?

belal42 · December 2002

It's interesting to see the responses.

Yesterday I was playing a game where the marines looked like they were going to win, they had the third hive, HA/HMG and wew moving in teams of three, one firing, one reloading, one welding. I thought we were dead, but we took back the third hive, twice, and then the game was ours.

What are these fabled servers where the marines win? I've never seen a marine rush, I'd be interested to see them.

Windelkron · December 2002

Dude, absolutely the opposite. The only time I feel a pang of guilt is when I use the Spore Cloud, because it's cheap. (it's also pretty much the only ability I can use thanks to by 4 fps, though.)

I <b>always </b>feel a pang of guilt when I'm a marine with the HMG. The first time I ever had the HMG, I mowed through 3 skulks. There was a lerk, and I could have killed him, but I felt so horrible about myself that I let him fly at me and bite me to death (he used vents, which is a plus for ingenuity).

I don't use the Fade much, as it requires decent FPS, but I assume from playing marines often that the acid rocket is a hugely cheap weapon. Well, whatever, I consider the spore cloud/acid rocket equally cheap as the HMG or HA.

So overall, I don't feel the Kharaa are overpowered at all. I actually feel they're underpowered. Have you seen how accurate the LMG is? Like, if you just stand there and fire a whole clip at a wall... geez. And don't get me started about turrets.

belal42 · December 2002

windle...maybe you're 4fps hinders your alien like abilities though <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='wink.gif'>
Acid rocket depends...I have a hard time taking down HA with acid rocket or fades in general, by myself. Without HA, they're so dead.

I'm thinking I need to play larger games.

FlatlineUTD · December 2002

I think the alien's power lies in the fact that they don't *have* to work as a team to be succesful. Sure, it helps, but it's not 100% necessary.

On the other hand, the marines need a good commander and good individual players to win. On public servers, this is rarely the case.

Putting these aspects together makes the aliens a bit more overpowered, IMHO.

I used to play only marine back with 1.01 and 1.02, but now I always go random team.

Ardesco · December 2002

Flatline, I'm just curious, but do you win a lot more games than you lose as commander? The only reason I really replied to this thread was because lately, I've felt that given even complete incompetents, marines can pull off a win. I played this one game on ns_caged, and my entire team was full of noobies who didn't know how to shoot (1 skulk = 4 marine kills syndrome). It was so bad to the point where we had full upgrades and junk, but the marines still couldn't shoot a skulk coming at them for their lives. Nevertheless, they slowly followed orders, and by sheer force of numbers, we dominated the hives. This was me without a voicecomm, too, to add to the list of disadvantages. I've played more than one game where the marines I've commandered have been less than perfect, but I've managed to coax out a whole lotta wins out of using these incompetent marines for some reason. Good individual players mean the commander has to work less hard to make them do what he wants, but I literally go crazy when I have inexperienced guys, telling them even to shoot sometimes when they see aliens shooting spikes in front of them. Sure, it sounds nutz, but it works for me.

I doubt marines is all about having good players. If they can build, follow a waypoint, and at least fire the damn gun, they've got potential...granted, that's potential I never get to see in some games <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'> , but I put a lot of faith in the ability of a commander to turn the tides of a battle even when he's got slow troops.

Of course, this is all my opinion. I could well be proven wrong by losing the next 50 games I commandered, and the games I played previously were all just one giant fluke <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'>

FlatlineUTD · December 2002

Ardesco, I've lost between 5-10 of the 40-50 games I've commanded from start to finish. As a regular marine, I've never lost a game in which I've had a good commander and teammates that new what they were doing. When I join a game and the commander doesn't have a clue, it's only a matter of time before we lost. Sometimes they let me take over, and occasionally I can salvage it, but if the game has been going on for a while, I can't.

I hate to sound cocky, but the majority of people that have played under me consider me to be a pretty damn good commander. I've got a few "methods" that I use to get even the most incompetant marines working together, which is key.

The games that I've lost were because a few people on my team utterly *refused* to do anything I asked them.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>I doubt marines is all about having good players. If they can build, follow a waypoint, and at least fire the damn gun, they've got potential...granted, that's potential I never get to see in some games , but I put a lot of faith in the ability of a commander to turn the tides of a battle even when he's got slow troops.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
That's the job of the commander. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'> That's why the role is in the game.

I suppose I should have said marines willing to listen rather than good players.

On the other hand, I've lost (I think) 3 games

Ardesco · December 2002

This is just a question I'm posing to you, flatline, since you and I seem to be in the same boat.

Should NS be balanced to the point where a good commander should just about break even? (i.e. win a game, lose a game, etc?)

It's something I quite haven't fully formulated an answer to yet, but I'm interested in hearing other people's responses, especially yours and narf's, if he reads the kharaa forums

FlatlineUTD · December 2002

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ardesco @ Dec 15 2002, 01:44 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>This is just a question I'm posing to you, flatline, since you and I seem to be in the same boat.

Should NS be balanced to the point where a good commander should just about break even? (i.e. win a game, lose a game, etc?)

It's something I quite haven't fully formulated an answer to yet, but I'm interested in hearing other people's responses, especially yours and narf's, if he reads the kharaa forums</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Interesting question, to say the least.

I'll have to think about that for a bit - I'll PM you when I have an answer <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'>

Do You Consider The Kharaa Overpowered?

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