Sentry Spam
Runteh
Join Date: 2010-06-26 Member: 72163Members, Reinforced - Shadow
Join Date: 2010-06-26 Member: 72163Members, Reinforced - Shadow
<div class="IPBDescription">Please do something about it...</div>I understand why sentries have become cheaper. It really is one of the only ways to combat aliens ability to cover large areas of the map quickly and destroy any gains made by the marines.
Combined with Phase Gates this is more along the lines of NS1, fairs fair... it seems to be working.
My issue is that this sort of 't!t for tat' damage type really holds the game back, and sentry spam is becoming infuriating by the litter of sentries you can find on a map.
It makes things increasingly hard, trying to dodge around them, knocking into them, ruining the flow of firefights with alien life forms.
As a commander, sentry placement becomes sporadic. As you are trying to organise your team upfront, whilst re-building defences at the rear. You don't have time, or can't be bothered to place sentries effectively.
The system has bow become as it was in NS1.. <b>The more the better.</b>
On large maps, a single alien can have its way with defences. This leads to stalemates, as you pull people back from the front to re-build existing set-ups.
Frustrating.
A game that I thought tackled sentries really well was Quake 2/3 Weapons Factory.
The sentries were very powerful and you only ever saw 2 maximum, and on your own there was no way you could enter a room on your own to destroy it as well as capture the flag.
Instead you had the 'Cyborg' who would launch sentry seeking rockets into the room, and once destroyed a faster more agile class could whip in, grab the flag, and then whip out again.
The slow moving rockets could be shot by the opposing team, but not seen by the sentries. (See 1:00)
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I like alien building spam, it works with how the marines attack the aliens. It feels alien like. But marine building spam does not work well for anyone.
I think if the Gorge was perhaps given a role with a 'redeemer' style bile bomb that he could role into rooms that temporarily shut down the structures it hit, it could be an effective way of lifting his role as a more offensive and pivotal class.
It would mean it would be hard for single aliens to take down a room without him, but with him it would be a different situation.
Allowing Fades/Skulks to then get behind and attack the powered down buildings.
Perhaps when attached to structures, it could also increase damage sustained by 2 - 3x normal.
Essentially, forcing players to work together for a very effective attack. But also making it harder for them to force stalemates.
Game is starting to feel really great now btw.
Combined with Phase Gates this is more along the lines of NS1, fairs fair... it seems to be working.
My issue is that this sort of 't!t for tat' damage type really holds the game back, and sentry spam is becoming infuriating by the litter of sentries you can find on a map.
It makes things increasingly hard, trying to dodge around them, knocking into them, ruining the flow of firefights with alien life forms.
As a commander, sentry placement becomes sporadic. As you are trying to organise your team upfront, whilst re-building defences at the rear. You don't have time, or can't be bothered to place sentries effectively.
The system has bow become as it was in NS1.. <b>The more the better.</b>
On large maps, a single alien can have its way with defences. This leads to stalemates, as you pull people back from the front to re-build existing set-ups.
Frustrating.
A game that I thought tackled sentries really well was Quake 2/3 Weapons Factory.
The sentries were very powerful and you only ever saw 2 maximum, and on your own there was no way you could enter a room on your own to destroy it as well as capture the flag.
Instead you had the 'Cyborg' who would launch sentry seeking rockets into the room, and once destroyed a faster more agile class could whip in, grab the flag, and then whip out again.
The slow moving rockets could be shot by the opposing team, but not seen by the sentries. (See 1:00)
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I like alien building spam, it works with how the marines attack the aliens. It feels alien like. But marine building spam does not work well for anyone.
I think if the Gorge was perhaps given a role with a 'redeemer' style bile bomb that he could role into rooms that temporarily shut down the structures it hit, it could be an effective way of lifting his role as a more offensive and pivotal class.
It would mean it would be hard for single aliens to take down a room without him, but with him it would be a different situation.
Allowing Fades/Skulks to then get behind and attack the powered down buildings.
Perhaps when attached to structures, it could also increase damage sustained by 2 - 3x normal.
Essentially, forcing players to work together for a very effective attack. But also making it harder for them to force stalemates.
Game is starting to feel really great now btw.
Comments
Sentries in bubble radius around the turret factory would be nice.
The idea of turrets having weakspots is something I quite enjoy, where in ns1 the weak spot was the turretfactory, now it's all about making effective setups of turrets covering their respective weakspots. Adds more creativity to commander mode, as well as to being aliens, trying to find the weakspots.
Of course after awhile people will just copy the best setups and part of the fun of experimenting and discovering will be gone, however, it could still be a commander skill you could refine and improve every time you play.
Personally I haven't had much problems with the turret spam as of yet, it does drag games out for more than hours, but as someone said extra abilities and onos will combat this. Right now you still have bile though. Drop some hydras, or go into a vent and bile the ###### out of em.
It's far more troublesome for a commander to create proper setups, than it is for gorges, lerks and fades to take them out. That being said, I've noticed that most of the current annoyances come from the fact that games easily turn into dragged out stalemates caused by the lack of proper counters and abilities, where the only thing left for a commander to do is spend their resources on spamming turrets.
I'm not saying what you suggest is not doable, but it's a very extreme case, very little people would try and cover the map with turrets, and it's impossible to do so with infestation growing.
I've tried doing what you're saying btw, and single turret lines are very weak. Last night, me and another comm had turretfarmed ventilation on ns_summit. There were turrets in a circle on the outer wall (not on the walk way), every single one pointing towards the walk way and power node. Where it is impossible to get to their weak spot as aliens. Even with this powerful setup, it took a single fade about 2 minutes to take down the power node as well as the spare power pack.
I'm not saying what you suggest is not doable, but it's a very extreme case, very little people would try and cover the map with turrets, and it's impossible to do so with infestation growing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I just may have the terrible luck where more than half of my playtests in the past two patches were 2+ hour matches due to sentries being everywhere, covering everything.
One match they had surface access so full of turrets a fade would be out of energy by the time they got to the weak spot to do anything and then be forced to die from a flamethrower as they couldn't escape from the 10+ sentries in that room.
Eventually the marines started to make a comeback by spreading turrets across the map like infestation until the server crashed.
Locking or welding shut doors is suppose to give marines a counter to alien mobility for control of the map. Its not complete map control, since skulks and lerks can bypass them (if there is a vent of something to bypass them with). However its really the main way to hinder Fade movement (would also hinder gorge movement...Onos smash). Summit has no doors, so Fades have complete freedom to go anywhere they want. This also mutes the advantage of skulks ability to bypass rooms via vents.
A turret won't stop a fade, but a wall will.
Right now marines are resorting to walls of turrets to stop Fades.
I was that other commander, and I can attest to this. It was at the end of a very long stalemate that nobody was taking serious anymore, so it allowed some turret farm experimentation. It was a bit jarring to see a single fade take down our masterfully placed turrets...I think we had close to a dozen (plus the extra power pack). Btw, after that game, I comm'd another and found a much more robust setup using less turrets. Not completely fade proof, but it'll take him more than 2 minutes to take down.
Then deal with it the same way you do infestation, cut a hole in the middle of the line and destroy everything beyond it.
Lurk throws spores right in front of Sentries to obscure marine vision and stop them from rushing the Gorge. The gorge then promptly obliterates a one square meter patch of construction in about 15 seconds with his Bile Bomb. Any marines dumb enough to rush him choke to death before they even run into the Gorge's Hydras that are covering their escape, and after about 4 seconds of healing, the pair is back killing sentries again.
I think what he is trying to say is that sentry turrets individually are too weak, requiring commander to spam them in order to create effective defenses. It requires a lot of micromanagement and shifts the commanders focus from the front line to building turret fortresses. They also get in the way ...breaking up combat flow, and make marine bases look like "turret infestation" ...which in his opinion aesthetically goes against the marine look. Since turrets are weak, a single alien can go behind lines and completely take out a room full. Then the commander has to go back to that room, rebuild and is forced to abandon any forward positions. This then starts the stalemates we all know.
Onos and other alien abilities won't solve this problem. They'll solve the stalemates, but thats not the problem he is getting at.
His solution is to make each turret individual stronger (more expensive too I assume), so less are needed and less micromanagement from the commander is required. I generally agree with this part. However I'm not too sold on needing a new game mechanic similar to the cyborg rocket in quake in order to get rid of them. Here the Onos and other specialized alien abilities already planned can come into play.
Now that the Gorge has Bilebomb, I don't think it would be unreasonable to raise the price of the Sentry back to what it was (20 T.Res IIRC), and buff it's damage. Should result in less turret spam with equal (but more conditional) stopping power.
Now that the Gorge has Bilebomb, I don't think it would be unreasonable to raise the price of the Sentry back to what it was (20 T.Res IIRC), and buff it's damage. Should result in less turret spam with equal (but more conditional) stopping power.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yep. Aliens now have working Fades and Skulks too, so tougher (but more expensive) turrets isn't too unreasonable. I still think maps implementing more doors can help the Marine's front lines not crumble so easily. It would give skulks, and soon to be Gorge's pustule infestation more utility ...instead of just Fade spam to counter turret spam. Ultimately the Onos will be the grand equalizer on the alien side by smashing turrets and doors...forcing Marines out of any hidey hole bases.
Of course, each Sentry would need some visual cue as to which type it is, so that'd mean more modeling for UW...
Of course, each Sentry would need some visual cue as to which type it is, so that'd mean more modeling for UW...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Seems like a lot more work with a lot less purpose.
Part of the objective was to decrease the clutter of Sentries as a commander. This would do the exact opposite.
Part of the objective was to decrease the clutter of Sentries as a commander. This would do the exact opposite.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well let's say you research an omni-directional Sentry at your appropriate structure. Now, instead of chaining together sentries watching sentries watching sentries, you can just drop down 3-5 in a cluster, set your MACs on them, and go back to caring about other parts of the map. That seems like it would be much easier to manage.
Well I don't think the goal is to make placing turrets easy, just less distracting and time consuming. I admit, I enjoy the strategic aspect of placing turrets properly. However quantity doesn't equal quality, and number of turrets commanders are asked to place is too much right now.
Exactly...
I was commanding the other day, and very effectively. But my team was unable to take down the last hive on Summit.
This is even though I had every upgrade possible, every RT captured and every room had at least 10 turrets in and the occasional phase gate, also with ARCs constantly on the attack.
Lerks could still get out of the base, begin taking down a room, and it meant I had to attend to the back lines every 5 minutes.
I don't have a problem with aliens doing that, but not considering the situation we were in and a stalemate that lasted probably 20 minutes + the game time up to our strongest position.
The problem for me is that balance is done solely on 'damage vs damage' and not so much 'if we work together, our skills/abilities combine to create an effective and well oiled killing machine.'
I'm not suggesting I have an answer, or that it is the right one. But maps are far too cluttered, and it feels as if the issues with NS1 sentries are creeping back in.
Sieges are perfect now btw.
There is team work and a feeling of satisfaction if you have an effective commander/player - player/player relationship that requires people to work together to co-ordinate and effectively execute attacks.