Temporary Hydras

KurrineKurrine Join Date: 2010-07-03 Member: 72235Members
edited June 2011 in NS2 General Discussion
<div class="IPBDescription">Your thoughts?</div>If anyone has skimmed the design log lately: <a href="http://tinyurl.com/ns2design" target="_blank">http://tinyurl.com/ns2design</a>

"- Thinking seriously about adding lifetime to hydras, so they expire after a few minutes. May lower cost or increase effectiveness as well. This would add to the dynamic/living feel on the alien side and would further reinforce their purpose as “delayers” (as opposed to being static defenses that stay forever and really stymie or clog up marine movement/attacks). Could make them visually change over their lifetime too, so you could see their maturity. If we did this, we may not need the ability to recycle them."

My first reaction to this was great big no..
but it may be fine with the lowered price really or that increased effectiveness.

That's why I've set up this thread to find out how others feel about this and the impacts it would have to gameplay around it.

Your thoughts?
«13

Comments

  • Enhance89Enhance89 Join Date: 2009-11-04 Member: 69261Members
    edited June 2011
    I don't know...it doesn't seem fair to me. I mean turrets don't recycle on a set time limit, and the aliens have no other means by which to somewhat protect an area over time like hydras. Whips are one thing but their range is minimal. I think it'd be really annoying for aliens to have to constantly run back to an area and add hydras in order to hinder marine advancements.

    I still give it a great big no, personally.
  • PsiWarpPsiWarp Gifted Gorge Richmond, B.C., Canada Join Date: 2010-08-28 Member: 73810Members
    If they're making Hydras temporary, then they should make the Whip better at defense. Even a pistol can take out those weak tentacles :<
  • ThatOtherOtherGuyThatOtherOtherGuy Join Date: 2010-11-29 Member: 75340Members
    edited June 2011
    Short answer:

    DO NOT WANT

    Slightly not as short answer:

    I don't see the problem this would be solving. Maybe I just haven't seen it yet but I've never seen hydra spam to the point where it becomes a major issue for marines. I've certainly seen sentry spam so thick that you wouldn't believe, but nothing near as bad from hydras, and nothing that a GL can't easily fix.

    I'd want a fix for sentry spam before hydra spam. Often times the only solution seems to be a lerk sniping at it from a distance when the marines go sentry crazy. Since hydras come from PRes aliens can't spam them near as easy as marines can when games start lasting a little too long and besides that unlike the bile bomb which lacks range or the lerk spike which lacks power the grenade launcher has both and is always an easy solution for marines to use.
  • KurrineKurrine Join Date: 2010-07-03 Member: 72235Members
    edited June 2011
    <!--quoteo(post=1855490:date=Jun 22 2011, 02:32 PM:name=PsiWarp)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PsiWarp @ Jun 22 2011, 02:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1855490"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If they're making Hydras temporary, then they should make the Whip better at defense. Even a pistol can take out those weak tentacles :<<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Yes.. even before this I'd hoped they'd improve them somehow, they're just.. awful really, you'll see maybe two kills with a whip in a game, tops. They're worse speed bumps than hydras right now. I'm actually kinda hoping for them being like a large Hydra.. maybe having that bombard be an automated thing that is lobbed at marines. The close ranged thing makes no sense to me against a primarily ranged enemy really. That asside.. they'd have to make Hydras pretty powerful to make me want to place temporary static defense..
  • Enhance89Enhance89 Join Date: 2009-11-04 Member: 69261Members
    I think a more reasonable option is limiting hydras in a given area. But you'd have to do the same for marines with turrets, which I'm actually surprised isn't the case like it was in NS1.
  • CricketCricket Join Date: 2009-05-31 Member: 67603Members
    I sort of like the idea of hydras being temporary, it gives gorges more reason to move around the map instead of babysitting small areas. However, they should be buffed up a bit while they're active and I also agree that if this change goes into effect, the whips need an improvement at static defense.
  • lunsluns Join Date: 2010-12-05 Member: 75502Members
    edited June 2011
    why not make gorge class a temporary in the same time?

    seriously guys, the class already lacks everything ns1 gorge was about, now we debating making his buildings totally useless? For good example how temporary things work, just look at his healspray spreading infestation, its totally useless if it just a temporary - that is why they're making gorge infestation permanent if its connected to the rest of infestation. Funny how it took so long to figure, while many already pretty much questioned the problem with it.

    its extremely poor attempt trying to fix "hydra" spam, since you will be pretty much killing the class all together.

    I rather see some "fixes" to marines turret spam, this problem was easily solved in ns1 by turret factories.
    without turret factory, commander can lame up the whole room from every side he wants without worry, and they're cheap as well.
    But if turret factory was needed, turrets would be placed within the factory range and it would be extremely costly keep building turret factories.
  • ObraxisObraxis Subnautica Animator & Generalist, NS2 Person Join Date: 2004-07-24 Member: 30071Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Silver, WC 2013 - Supporter, Subnautica Developer, Pistachionauts
    The whip is being made faster anyway, gorges can make hydras quite easily and quickly. I dont mind having them temporary, as long as they are there for a decent amount of time.

    This would also make whips more used, so you can move them to the front of battle and help defend.
  • Chris0132Chris0132 Join Date: 2009-07-25 Member: 68262Members
    I'd prefer if gorges could just eat their own hydras to get res back, that would encourage them to move their hydras to more effective locations, also hydras don't stand up to concentrated marine aggression and certainly not to arcs or grenade launchers. If you fixed their hitboxes they'd also be killable by conventional weapons. They work best when supported by players, I really don't think they need changing.
  • KurrineKurrine Join Date: 2010-07-03 Member: 72235Members
    edited June 2011
    I have to agree.. turret spam is a bigger problem, also hydras are pretty crappy right now for the cost so I guess I'm mostly excited for the prospect of a less crappy hydra more than the temporary thing. The new resource rates pretty much cleaned up any huge hydra numbers so I'm not sure if this'll be solving anything other than making them while alive at least, more effective, or if they go with the reduced cost but temp hydra.. I could see more spam of them going on in a single area since they don't last.
  • ScardyBobScardyBob ScardyBob Join Date: 2009-11-25 Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
    I support this as long as they make offsetting changes (increase damage/health or reduce cost).

    It also gives a strong incentive for gorges to use hydras as a support for attacking.
  • Pr0nPr0n Join Date: 2003-02-15 Member: 13592Members
    I think this is a good idea given that:

    A) You improve Hydras and make them significantly better, but on a timed life. I would incorporate a "flower" blooming and blossoming then shriveling then the petals/heads fall off when it times out. Neat animation at the least.
    B) Whips are made *significantly better*. Make sure that they get that "Bombard" attack when they are upgraded so they have some kind of ranged attack form with a splash?

    I like it overall.
  • RanemanRaneman Join Date: 2010-01-07 Member: 69962Members
    I will support this on one condition: Whips OHK marines without armor upgrades, and Mature Whips up to Armor Upgrade #2.
    Otherwise -support.
  • Chris0132Chris0132 Join Date: 2009-07-25 Member: 68262Members
    I really don't like the idea of having hydras temporary, it just means they're unreliable. If I place hydras somewhere I do it because I want to hold that position indefinitely, until I need to go somewhere else.
  • twincannontwincannon Join Date: 2011-06-14 Member: 104459Members
    How about instead of temporary, a gorge can pick up/move/re-absorb an already placed hydra (has to be at 100% or something to prevent abuse).

    But I generally agree that if they're going to be temporary, the alien commander needs a new defensive building. The whip just doesn't cut it for static base defense.
  • mickoomickoo Join Date: 2011-06-22 Member: 105914Members
    edited June 2011
    If they are going to make them temporary then make them more sneaky by allowing them to be placed anywhere with a projectile seed (mentioned in gorge movement thread). Have commander place infestation on the floor with top down view and allow gorges to shoot mini pustlues onto walls and ceilings to place infestation (creates great hive cave infesty atmosphere too). Then have hydras grow from projectile seeds allowing sneaky roof attacks.

    Use the 'ghost' view (similar to fades old blink) to preview placement of hyrdas and mini pustules before shooting.

    = WIN ! :)
  • ZenoZeno Join Date: 2007-09-05 Member: 62183Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1855494:date=Jun 22 2011, 10:43 PM:name=Cricket)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cricket @ Jun 22 2011, 10:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1855494"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->it gives gorges more reason to move around the map instead of babysitting small areas...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Actually it would just encourage them to babysit because they would have to build new hydras over and over again to defend a position.

    currently i'm against any idea that makes aliens even weaker than they already are.


    I've never seen the aliens win a game so far. (I admit i don't play that much)
  • PsiWarpPsiWarp Gifted Gorge Richmond, B.C., Canada Join Date: 2010-08-28 Member: 73810Members
    edited June 2011
    Hmm, perhaps Hydras and Pustules can have synergy. Since both can be created by the Gorge, why not?

    Ex. Hydras can connect to Pustules via tendril, only if those pustules are connected to the Hive. If the supporting pustule becomes unconnected, the Hydras' tendrils also retract and triggers a 120 seconds timer for each of the Hydras (visible at reticle text, similar to deconstruction). The Hydras will die at 0% if the pustule supporting them remains unconnected.

    Assuming the Gorge can place infestation just by popping a small pustule on the ground (or heal spray can still infest surfaces), he can also place temporary Hydras on the map to create forward bases. To solidify the aliens' hold on that territory, the Commander will have to work with the Gorge to connect the small pustule to the Hive.
  • Chris0132Chris0132 Join Date: 2009-07-25 Member: 68262Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1855560:date=Jun 23 2011, 01:58 AM:name=Zeno)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zeno @ Jun 23 2011, 01:58 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1855560"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Actually it would just encourage them to babysit because they would have to build new hydras over and over again to defend a position.

    currently i'm against any idea that makes aliens even weaker than they already are.


    I've never seen the aliens win a game so far. (I admit i don't play that much)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    They win a lot, statistically, it's about 70-30 in favour of aliens last I checked.
  • Chris0132Chris0132 Join Date: 2009-07-25 Member: 68262Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1855557:date=Jun 23 2011, 01:48 AM:name=twincannon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (twincannon @ Jun 23 2011, 01:48 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1855557"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How about instead of temporary, a gorge can pick up/move/re-absorb an already placed hydra (has to be at 100% or something to prevent abuse).

    But I generally agree that if they're going to be temporary, the alien commander needs a new defensive building. The whip just doesn't cut it for static base defense.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Yeah that's a much better idea, I know when it's a good idea to move my hydras, let me do that rather than just making them die.
  • LazerLazer Join Date: 2003-03-11 Member: 14406Members, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester
    edited June 2011
    Not sure how I feel about an alien structure slowly dying over time considering its on infestation. I could understand maybe if hydras were OP but in the games I've played recently they don't seem to be and they are fairly expensive. It also seems like depending on res flow they might die off as quick as the gorge gets the res to build them :\

    Only makes sense if they were really cheap or really powerful. Even then its a bit counterintuitive for any alien structure to die unless the infestation recedes. Why the exception for hydras?
  • QuovatisQuovatis Team Inversion Join Date: 2010-01-26 Member: 70321Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
    A big fat no from me. Hydras are the only ranged static defense the aliens have. Whips have limited range are are easily circumvented. Maybe make 2 versions of the hydra: one that costs more but is static, and one that is cheaper but has a lifetime.
  • PsiWarpPsiWarp Gifted Gorge Richmond, B.C., Canada Join Date: 2010-08-28 Member: 73810Members
    If they insist on making Hydras temporary, how about a lifeform upgrade late game that Gorges can purchase to make their Hydras become mature versions (permanent)?
  • countbasiecountbasie Join Date: 2008-12-27 Member: 65884Members
    edited June 2011
    <!--quoteo(post=1855576:date=Jun 23 2011, 01:28 AM:name=PsiWarp)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PsiWarp @ Jun 23 2011, 01:28 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1855576"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If they insist on making Hydras temporary, how about a lifeform upgrade late game that Gorges can purchase to make their Hydras become mature versions (permanent)?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->


    In NS1 those chambers were more of an early game choice. In late game the marine's weapons got too strong for them and they could easily be killed. When the dev's plan is to keep it that way, your idea may not be really worthwhile.
  • JirikiJiriki retired ns1 player Join Date: 2003-01-04 Member: 11780Members, NS1 Playtester, Squad Five Silver
    I think temporary hydras are one of the better suggestions. Nothing in NS1/2 is more annoying than a stalemate of hydras and turrets.
  • peregrinusperegrinus Join Date: 2010-07-16 Member: 72445Members
    [reposting from another thread]

    I can't say it's very fun to have your buildings start to die so soon, and it will be hard for a gorge to defend hives across the map. If I know the hydras I put down will die soon, then I won't dare leave the room they are in and risk marines getting easy access. Instead the game might be less dynamic because gorges will have to remember to plant hydras in the spot where the last ones died.

    It also confuses me why the hydras would die? They are placed on infestation, which nourishes aliens and supports alien structures....no other alien structure looses health on infestation, so the planned idea is contrary to the current system. Players might be confused and think the hydras were placed in the wrong area, just like the 60 second gorge infestation confused so many and wasted a lot of time.

    An ability to recycle hydras makes more sense
  • twilitebluetwiliteblue bug stalker Join Date: 2003-02-04 Member: 13116Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
    I remember in Savage 2, the engineer/builder classes (the Builder and the Conjurer) can both summon a temporary turret during combat. It's a concept UWE might want to consider.

    As for Hydras, until the Mature Whip ranged attack is implemented, Kharaa's main defensive structure will need to be filled by the Hydra.
  • HakujinHakujin Join Date: 2003-05-09 Member: 16157Members, Constellation
    I think a better idea would be to have hydras die faster to weapons so that marines can cut through them. Timing out just seems frustrating.
  • yodayoda Join Date: 2003-11-27 Member: 23619Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
    I did not see this fixing a gameplay issue specifically, but more of a server performance issue. Those hydras are still nasty to servers.
  • KisleKisle Join Date: 2006-12-25 Member: 59229Members
    I would like it when each gorge can place. . like 3 temporary hydras wihout a res cost.. ( pretty weak hydras then )
    Then they would be super mobile and more of like an offence / support class.. then just sitting around and defending.
Sign In or Register to comment.