Territorial Control
KuBaN
Join Date: 2002-11-16 Member: 8979Members, Constellation
Join Date: 2002-11-16 Member: 8979Members, Constellation
<div class="IPBDescription">Lights, Power, Action?</div><u>Preface:</u>
It feels like the territorial aspects of the game need clarification/buffing. Attacking/repairing Power Nodes serve as an organic timer for capturing a territory. Upon capture, the owning team should be provided a territorial advantage, however, territories do not have a truly neutral state: they default to marine control. By destroying a Power Node, the territory technically becomes Kharaa controlled, although this does not bring enough advantage to the Kharaa. The advantage of cover in darkness (and incentive to use Dark Vision) is very brief by comparison to the much more consistent Marine advantage of power and light. The Alien territory state feels, at best, Neutral. Because of this there is little incentive to destroying Power Nodes currently, other than in established Marine territory.
<u>Suggestion:</u>
Rooms become completely dark when their dependent Power Node is destroyed, and remain thus until a Marine or MAC begins repairing the unpowered node, at which point the emergency (red) lights are switched on. If the node is repaired, the lights/power are returned. If the node is attacked again, the lights go out again.
It feels like the territorial aspects of the game need clarification/buffing. Attacking/repairing Power Nodes serve as an organic timer for capturing a territory. Upon capture, the owning team should be provided a territorial advantage, however, territories do not have a truly neutral state: they default to marine control. By destroying a Power Node, the territory technically becomes Kharaa controlled, although this does not bring enough advantage to the Kharaa. The advantage of cover in darkness (and incentive to use Dark Vision) is very brief by comparison to the much more consistent Marine advantage of power and light. The Alien territory state feels, at best, Neutral. Because of this there is little incentive to destroying Power Nodes currently, other than in established Marine territory.
<u>Suggestion:</u>
Rooms become completely dark when their dependent Power Node is destroyed, and remain thus until a Marine or MAC begins repairing the unpowered node, at which point the emergency (red) lights are switched on. If the node is repaired, the lights/power are returned. If the node is attacked again, the lights go out again.
Comments
Do not want pustules.
This isn't my original idea btw, too lazy to go dig for the post
<!--quoteo(post=1843106:date=Apr 29 2011, 01:07 PM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Apr 29 2011, 01:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1843106"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Power nodes causing DI to recede is a nice idea, though. Definitely has that territorial aspect. All rooms except marine start should start with the power nodes destroyed then, I think. It'd be like the initial 'black' fog of war in an RTS - both teams would be advancing into the unknown. The first step in an expansion is to take the power node, and this is fine because marines can now repair power nodes. <b>*If there's too much DI present in the room (or the DI is covering the power node), it'll need to be cleared away before the power node can be repaired.</b> DI should also grow slower the further away from the 'source' (Hives) so aliens can't simply take the whole map at the start. Harvesters could perhaps act as 'repeaters' which will increase the DI growth rate (or rather, counteract the lower DI growth rate). The portable power packs will exist to provide temporary power in those rooms infested with DI, to push back the DI so that the power node can be repaired assuming the absence of flamethrower support; or else as a backup power source so it requires the aliens to take out two nodes to spread their influence in that room.
So,
Powered, uninfested rooms = marine territory (at the start of the match, marine start only)
Unpowered, uninfested rooms = neutral territory (at the start of the match, all except marine and alien start)
Unpowered, infested rooms = alien territory (at the start of the match, alien start only)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In terms of lighting,
Marine territory = full lighting
Neutral territory = emergency lighting (but make it easier on the eyes than that godawful red...)
Alien territory = <b>dark*</b>, maybe the DI can give off some degree of luminescence
<b>*either the power node itself is infested (for the wall-climbing 'mesh' approach), or the room is sufficiently infested (works better for the prototype)</b>
Do not want pustules.
This isn't my original idea btw, too lazy to go dig for the post<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not ready to say Power Nodes should inhibit Infestation growth, but I'm right on board with you on the destroyed/damaged power nodes in Alien territory.
Not really a fan of <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=113258&view=findpost&p=1842552" target="_blank">pustules</a> either; doesn't really feel Dynamic and it still doesn't fix some of the issues with the Infestation prototype. Giving Drifters an ability that slows them down (grounds them) but leaves Infestation as they travel seems like a solution to many of the problems. They can be destroyed, they're bound by the level geometry, and they can be modified to climb walls (dynamic!).
The issue with this is it strictly ties Aliens to the Power Grid, which is strictly a Marine mechanic. Part of the appeal of Infestation is that it functions independently.
Neutral territory = emergency lighting (but make it easier on the eyes than that godawful red...)
Alien territory = dark*, maybe the DI can give off some degree of luminescence<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I could go with something like that.
Another idea to run along with it. Heavy suits get night vision. Possibly lights on the heavy armor that give off a small radius of light to illuminate the area around the heavy allowing marines without armor or jet packs to see a little better. Even with the flash lights a completely dark area is extremely disorientating. Don't want the aliens being able to hold up in the base forever even when we know the game is over. Give the game enders a way to counter the lighting.
I don´t really think lights being on or off should affect infestation, and I also don´t think the pustule thing is bad. We need to actually play with pustules to really know.
Prolonged darkness when a powernode is completely destroyed would give flashlights and alien vision more purpose.
Additionally I suggest that the emergency lighting be tweaked to strobe much dimmer, rather than just giving the room a red filter as it currently does.
Also regarding territory control and lighting, currently the alien starts and certain corridors are permanently lit. I think they should be linked to power nodes like the rest of the map is or unlit otherwise.
But oi what about this idea:
what if marines could purchase night vision like in counter strike :D??
From the armory as well, no commander upgrade bull sh*t
From the armory as well, no commander upgrade bull sh*t<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I daresay night vision is a good idea
yet a con for it is the aliens will lose thier advantage in the dark
options could be pretty exspensive to buy in the start of the game
or what id rather see is that it works more like nightvision irl
like a light amplification module so you still need to switch on your flashlight
instead of a sort of infra red vision
I really like that idea!
Now with alien nightsight and reparable powernodes it is convertible.
BUT aliens will need the ability to destroy halfway repaired powernodes complete again and there shuld be a %-repaired indicator for both teams.
yet a con for it is the aliens will lose thier advantage in the dark
options could be pretty exspensive to buy in the start of the game
or what id rather see is that it works more like nightvision irl
like a light amplification module so you still need to switch on your flashlight
instead of a sort of infra red vision<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
yes i am talking about irl version, green sh*t. More effective than a flashlight none the less.
And as for your con, alien vision is free, and far greater than the marines one. Marines will have to purchase theirs, everytime they spawn (and as one of the devs put it, marines will have plenty of other things to spend res on, maybe they wont always be able to afford it?)
Cause we are talking about darkness when power nodes are gone - this includes hives am i right? marines will need some sort of vision when engaging hives
I would love for an organic feel to territorial control ..with distinct visual clarification on who has control. However I have a different take on this.
The infestation should in small steps organically take out lighting/power in a room (<b><!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro-->basically.. forget the on/off switch of the power node<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></b>). Once a room is infested to a certain point (oh say 25-50%), the room degrades into emergency lighting. This lets players know its a contested room, and establishes the 'front lines'. Once "fully infested" the room goes dark. I am willing to give pustules a chance (like I gave power nodes a chance). Especially since pustules (along with other alien structures) could be used to quantitatively establish how much infestation there is in a room. Right now infestation is visual guess work and not entirely elegant. But with pustules/structures contributing to 'room infestation', a player can identify the number in a room and determine how infested a room is. The players then also know exactly what they have to attack to get rid of infestation or defend to keep. Each pustule could add +10% to room infestation, structures +20%, hives +30% (just throwing numbers). Rooms can go over 100%, but 100% is just the point at which the room goes dark. Implement a minimum distance between pustules to prevent stacking at the beginning or coroner of a room. Marines can still build in contested/emergency light rooms, but dynamic infestation spread will still prevent construction of buildings (which also promotes alien commanders to spread out pustules). Portable power packs would allow marines to go into dark rooms, and initiate building structures. Once placed, the power pack turns emergency lighting/power back on (or maintain power in rooms with rising infestation), however marines will still have to contend with infestation to begin building anything. Plus the power pack presents a much more elegant objective to defend/attack than the power node.
<b>
<!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro-->Like this, the games becomes much more focused and intuitive..and more in line with the direction the devs are heading I believe. Aliens expand by building stuff. Marines prevent alien expansion by destroying stuff. Aliens gain control by building alien stuff, marines regain control by clearing out alien stuff. All the while infestation/power seamlessly oppose each other to clarify territorial control,....and with out the awkwardness of the current powernode/infestation mechanic interactions (which almost feel like they are from two different games).</b>
<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
I would be completely down with this. It would feel far more organic and natural. As much as I liked the idea of powernodes, it always seemed odd to me that marines would leave such a critical thing sticking out in the middle of a room. It would also make spreading DI and building more hives more important. Build a hive, and all the adjacent rooms loose power from its DI spread. This is a good way to preserve the dynamic lighting while streamlining how it works.
By the way, this should go up on getsatisfaction.
I posted a getsatifsfaction version <a href="http://getsatisfaction.com/unknownworlds/topics/territorial_control_of_rooms_infestation_and_power" target="_blank">here.</a>
This is definitely a concise and well-thought out idea that I could get behind if I didn't already have my own <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=113057&view=findpost&p=1847405" target="_blank">hopes and dreams for Power Nodes</a>!
I wanted to wait until pustules came out to restart this discussion, but I have been thinking of ways to keep powernodes in the game. While I think they are annoying most of the time, I admit that there are times they bring an interesting element. <!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro-->The goal Im going for is to cut out the annoying bits and keep the good bits of the powernode.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->...and also make it still work with what I proposed above.
They're annoying mostly due to taking way too long to destroy and rebuild...so they are not fun to interact with.
However, too much rests on them to make them less HP, since they are essentially the on/off switch of the room. You could build power packs as 'just in case back-up', but thats an annoying (and inefficient) way to use then and not exactly fun. <b>A solution is to create more efficient back-up power sources, so that lowering power node HP is possible ....allowing them to be rebuilt and taken down easier...and making them less annoying.</b>
<!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro-->I suggest that along with power packs, extractors themselves also act as power sources similar to a power pack.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> They already look like power generators, so its not too hard to visualize. When power is off, extractors are able to power themselves along with any structures within a certain radius (like powerpacks). However, the extractor generates less Res, since its 'using it to powering itself', so there is still motivation to restore power nodes. Losing power isn't the end of the world, since the extractor now acts as the "back-up power pack" running itself and any turrets and structures next to it. This also allows powernodes to be taken down (or restored) easier without being a complete game changer.
Another thing is that powernodes are up in all rooms at the start...rooms marines will not start contesting untill much later in the game. This allows aliens to take them down uncontested...why even bother?. Rooms should start with no powernodes. All rooms should start off emergency power on. Spare the aliens from feeling like they should take out every power node on their way to the marine frontlines.
This would create better atmosphere. One where the "marines" are coming in to save the day. Right now it feels as if the aliens just so happen to attack a base the TSA were stationed at. Its the TSA coming in to restore power, light and order in a colony the aliens have ravaged (to an extent). The aliens already cut the normal means of power to the base. Power node "outlets" now act as means to plug in emergency power generators (power nodes themselves). <!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro-->This changes the concept of the power node from a vulnerable electrical engineering blunder, to a smart and purposeful feature of bases.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Rising room infestation will still slowly take power down (as I originally suggest above) regardless if the power node is up or not (its "clogging up the wires"). The power node now acts as another "static structure" (like extractors and CCs) for marines to easily build in new rooms...and gives aliens (especially skulks) a now more enjoyable target to take down (even behind enemy lines). But its no longer the annoying lynchpin of room control.
They're annoying mostly due to taking way too long to destroy and rebuild...so they are not fun to interact with.
However, too much rests on them to make them less HP, since they are essentially the on/off switch of the room. You could build power packs as 'just in case back-up', but thats an annoying (and inefficient) way to use then and not exactly fun. <b>A solution is to create more efficient back-up power sources, so that lowering power node HP is possible ....allowing them to be rebuilt and taken down easier...and making them less annoying.</b>
<!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro-->I suggest that along with power packs, extractors themselves also act as power sources similar to a power pack.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> They already look like power generators, so its not too hard to visualize. When power is off, extractors are able to power themselves along with any structures within a certain radius (like powerpacks). However, the extractor generates less Res, since its 'using it to powering itself', so there is still motivation to restore power nodes. Losing power isn't the end of the world, since the extractor now acts as the "back-up power pack" running itself and any turrets and structures next to it. This also allows powernodes to be taken down (or restored) easier without being a complete game changer.
Another thing is that powernodes are up in all rooms at the start...rooms marines will not start contesting untill much later in the game. This allows aliens to take them down uncontested...why even bother?. Rooms should start with no powernodes. All rooms should start off emergency power on. Spare the aliens from feeling like they should take out every power node on their way to the marine frontlines.
This would create better atmosphere. One where the "marines" are coming in to save the day. Right now it feels as if the aliens just so happen to attack a base the TSA were stationed at. Its the TSA coming in to restore power, light and order in a colony the aliens have ravaged (to an extent). The aliens already cut the normal means of power to the base. Power node "outlets" now act as means to plug in emergency power generators (power nodes themselves). <!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro-->This changes the concept of the power node from a vulnerable electrical engineering blunder, to a smart and purposeful feature of bases.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Rising room infestation will still slowly take power down (as I originally suggest above) regardless if the power node is up or not (its "clogging up the wires"). The power node now acts as another "static structure" (like extractors and CCs) for marines to easily build in new rooms...and gives aliens (especially skulks) a now more enjoyable target to take down (even behind enemy lines). But its no longer the annoying lynchpin of room control.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Quoting this for great ideas to discuss.
A complementary idea revolving around the power issue would be for commanders or players being able to purchase upgrades for individual powernodes (or powerpacks as a whole), increasing their armor/hp or their power radius if it's the powerpacks.
Power Nodes would still function the same in Resource Node rooms. But to capture (and power up) a Tech Point room, Marines have to build a Command Station.
This will encourage the Marines to capture Tech Points, as it will be compulsory to extend their territory beyond "Res Rooms". Consequently, all Tech Rooms will be unpowered initially, and Aliens can remove power from Marine Tech Rooms by destroying the Command Station (instead of a Power Node). Also, Marines' cost to hold, and deny Aliens of Tech Points will be higher.
Alternatively, Marines could build a Power Pack near the Res Node in the Tech Room to power the Extractor only (and maybe two or three Sentries as well).
I feel that Infestation should not interact with Power Nodes directly. They are only markers of each team's territory, and provide bonuses to their respective teams. The introduction of Pustules will make Infestation easier to destroy, so the Marines will be able to clean up Tech Points easily.
Power Nodes would still function the same in Resource Node rooms. But to capture (and power up) a Tech Point room, Marines have to build a Command Station.
This will encourage the Marines to capture Tech Points, as it will be compulsory to extend their territory beyond "Res Rooms". Consequently, all Tech Rooms will be unpowered initially, and Aliens can remove power from Marine Tech Rooms by destroying the Command Station (instead of a Power Node). Also, Marines' cost to hold, and deny Aliens of Tech Points will be higher.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Its not a bad idea. Though I would still keep the powernode and make the CC act as a very large power pack (larger radius). The more interesting element power nodes bring to the game is the alien's ability to cut off the lights, which signals alien contention, establishes a "frontline room" and shows that marines don't have complete control over the room. In rooms that are developed, destroying a power node would just turns off the light (and perhaps ability to control doors? ie...they open up if not welded shut). More ways for marines to maintain back-up power, means the easier it becomes to change the power node to be less annoying. We can also then place them in more vulnerable and/or strategic locations ... and perhaps with only a single powernode powering multiple rooms (as with Kuban's map idea for less powernodes).
<!--quoteo(post=1855761:date=Jun 23 2011, 09:41 AM:name=twiliteblue)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (twiliteblue @ Jun 23 2011, 09:41 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1855761"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Alternatively, Marines could build a Power Pack near the Res Node in the Tech Room to power the Extractor only (and maybe two or three Sentries as well).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This already happens in games right now to an extent, and imo, its a boring way to use powerpacks (and almost equally annoying as current power nodes). I think it would good if both CC (as mentioned above) and Extractor acted as the "defensive pack-up power packs". You'll still need the power node if you want the lights on.
Currently, powerpack use is most interesting in rooms without power nodes (crevice, crossroads, summit alien start)...but only initially when its used in an offensive manner to quickly set up shop laying down turrets and armory. Once the room is controlled by marines and the comm keeps building them defensively it gets tedious.
If destroying the powernode (plus laying down pustules/structures) is the aliens way to initiate contention of a marine controlled room, laying down a powerpack should be the marine's equivalent.
<!--quoteo(post=1855761:date=Jun 23 2011, 09:41 AM:name=twiliteblue)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (twiliteblue @ Jun 23 2011, 09:41 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1855761"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I feel that Infestation should not interact with Power Nodes directly. They are only markers of each team's territory, and provide bonuses to their respective teams. The introduction of Pustules will make Infestation easier to destroy, so the Marines will be able to clean up Tech Points easily.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree that power and infestation are markers for team's territory and provide bonuses. I agree pustules will make infestation easier to destroy. But why shouldn't power and infestation interact with each other in some manner? It would depend on the nature of the interaction. However, current lack of interaction is contributing to a vague sense on who has territorial control
I really like your idea posted on GetSatisfaction <a href="http://getsatisfaction.com/unknownworlds/topics/territorial_control_of_rooms_infestation_and_power" target="_blank">here</a>.
I have dreamed of territorial interaction like this ever since I saw the first DI prototype video, but unfortunately I have not seen this kind of interaction happening in the beta so far... The gameplay seems to be shifting back to more NS1 style lately...
I agree that there needs to be more interaction between the power grid and infestation. There should be a battle for territorial dominance happening throughout the game. I have a few ideas that I believe will add some better territory control to your idea. Currently, power nodes have no neutral state and each room defaults to Marine control. Your idea ignores power nodes making the room somewhat neutral.
I would like to add power nodes back to your idea, but with my idea, <i><b><!--coloro:#FFFF00--><span style="color:#FFFF00"><!--/coloro-->power nodes no longer provide power to marine structures<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></b></i>. They do, by default, power rooms/areas of the map.
There are 3 distinct states that a room/area can be in.
<b>1. Neutral
2. <!--coloro:#48D1CC--><span style="color:#48D1CC"><!--/coloro-->Power Grid controlled<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
3. <!--coloro:#A0522D--><span style="color:#A0522D"><!--/coloro-->Infestation controlled<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></b>
<b><u>Neutral</u></b>
All power nodes(except for marine start) will start un-built at the beginning of the game. Marine structures now rely on the room's power state instead of power nodes for power. This is a neutral state where lights are on and both teams are free to move into the room. Marines can build structures that are powered and aliens can spread infestation and build structures in the room. While in this neutral state, control of the room shifts between Alien or Marine based on the infestation level.
<b><u><!--coloro:#48D1CC--><span style="color:#48D1CC"><!--/coloro-->Power Grid control<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></u></b> Marine controlled territory
When marines enter a neutral room with an un-built power node, they have the option of building it. Once the power node is build, it activates the "Power Grid" in this area and causes infestation to recede from the area. Pustules, temporary infestation(Gorge), and alien structures can still be placed in the room, they just will recede like any infestation not connected to a hive. The destruction of the power node will allow infestation to survive and progress into the room once again. Power nodes now take a shorter time to destroy than the current power nodes. A power node takes the same time to destroy as it takes an infested power node to be cleared.
<b><u><!--coloro:#A0522D--><span style="color:#A0522D"><!--/coloro-->Infestation control<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></u></b> Alien controlled territory
Aliens can spread infestation into an unbuilt power node area from a hive or with temporary gorge infestation. Aliens have the option of infesting the un-built power node. This can be done by a gorge or by a pustule connected to a hive. Once infested, marines can not build/repair the power node until the infestation is cleared from it with a flame thrower. In addition, infesting the power node cuts power to the room. Marines can still build power packs and structures in the room if there is some un-infested space to build on. An infested power node takes the same time to clear as a power node takes to destroy.
I think this adds territory control to the game and a whole lot of RTS style strategy. It can be separate from the main objective of destroying the enemies tech points or it can be a huge part of your strategy. Like I said, it doesn't seem like the devs are going in this direction, but we will have to wait and see... After many years, I still have high hopes for NS2...
Just imagining this gets me excited.