It impossible, or at least (a lot) more time consuming to balance features that aren't implemented. So it's only expected that things will break after a huge patch like this. a few might stop playing, most of us will stay. I'm having more fun in 180 than 179 running around like a skulk. <!--quoteo(post=1859056:date=Jul 9 2011, 02:18 PM:name=subshadow)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (subshadow @ Jul 9 2011, 02:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1859056"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just limit personal res to 100. Every income given when reaching max res, is randomly distributed to another player (or even the comm). So if someone is a good skulks, he can fade early. Upon maxing his own res, he also helps the other players to get higher lifeforms<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> something along these lines would be good. I currently run around with 250-300 pres in mid-end game as a skulk and I feel like the gorges could use it better =P
<!--quoteo(post=1859691:date=Jul 11 2011, 02:11 PM:name=Abalith)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Abalith @ Jul 11 2011, 02:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1859691"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Nobody seems to have mentioned what is probably the most important factor for UWE, and that is revenue.
A more enjoyable beta = more players = more income = more resources available to help develop the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> revenue is one of the big factors for any company, but there have to be a balance between spending time making the game fun, and making progress getting to release. that's when the real sale begins. I'm in favour of imbalance if it means we will get the final (and by then balanced) product faster.
<!--quoteo(post=1859697:date=Jul 11 2011, 08:44 AM:name=Taxen0)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Taxen0 @ Jul 11 2011, 08:44 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1859697"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm in favour of imbalance if it means we will get the final (and by then balanced) product faster.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Why would ditching 45-second coding tweaks like build time, damage output, damage output, speed, energy management, resource cost, and resource gain make the game, whose development cycle is closer measured in years, come out any noticeably quicker? And what if by ditching those things, you miss out on the opportunity to develop fun new features that could improve the final product?
I don't see how flat-out abandoning game balance helps anyone in this situation.
I only used the fade tweaks as an example. Im more concerned that they chose to redo the infestation system. It was unnecessary, the 179 version worked just fine. It may not have been totally balanced, but it wasnt breaking the balance, there were other issues doing that. Making the minor tweaks is fine, I just think trying to redo infestation was a big waste of time, since we can already see many bugs and problems with the new version(more than with the old) and they will have to spend more time tweaking that, when they could have just left the 179 version, and moved on to greater problems. My biggest complaint is time. I understand they are a very small team, but efficiency is more important in that case. This "Beta" has been going on for a long time, and we are still missing key components that will define the game... if all of the key components were added, we could see where the true imbalances of the game are coming from... and then new features can be added.
Oh, and my complaint about the fade is only that his energy is ridiculous, fades were the easiest to take out the mass sentry farms IMO, and they cant even take out one on a full energy bar. The other changes were fine... the fade WAS overpowered last patch.
When do you suggest the new infestation would have been put in then? The old way was only temporary and they were going to have to work on the new stuff at some point. Perhaps it better for them to spend a bit of time now and see how it works and tweak it, rather than waiting till the game is further along.
<!--quoteo(post=1859697:date=Jul 11 2011, 01:44 PM:name=Taxen0)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Taxen0 @ Jul 11 2011, 01:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1859697"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->revenue is one of the big factors for any company, but there have to be a balance between spending time making the game fun, and making progress getting to release. that's when the real sale begins. I'm in favour of imbalance if it means we will get the final (and by then balanced) product faster.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's more than just a big factor at this stage. A new company with no capital behind them making a product that takes god knows how many years worth of rent and salaries before it's finished is going to struggle! While I'm sure they are not totally relying on these preorders, they will also have to convince whoever is funding them that it will pay off eventually.
Having a player base paying for and enjoying the game in a nowhere near finished state is going to go a long way in achieving that I'm sure.
fmponeJoin Date: 2011-07-05Member: 108086Members, Squad Five Blue
I think the OP made a good point, but if you look at this stuff from the perspective of the devs, they will get no bug testing/support/continued financing (that last part is key) if everyone hates playing their game... at this point. Sure, you can say "balance it down the road", but... down what road? if everything is bad right now you lose motivation and your job, well it becomes a lot harder down the line. its easy to say, "lets add onos in, while preserving as much of the current baslance as we can"... its hard to say, "ok lets drop onos in.. and do EVERYTHING"
New Lerk - Only tried it once...I sucked...need more info. New Pathing System - Has improved. Cysts
Cysts exist they look cool they work. they might be too weak. <--- This is a couple numbers.
I'm hoping another performance run.
And please please continue with having the gorge vomit up things. I would vomit up a flower just to annoy some uppity marine. And he would shoot it dead wasting ammo just to spite me.
We are going to continue doing what we are doing. We are working on new features, but at the same time we really want to focus on getting the core game working better. That means making it more optimized, more balanced, better commander/player interaction, and with the various player roles more defined. Right now all of that is still a work in progress, and it doesn't make much sense to throw the higher tier stuff (Onos, exos, jetpacks, etc.) into the mix as it will just create more bugs and take our focus away from getting the core game in shape.
That is a decision both for the good of the development of the game, and also to keep the game fun and playable for everyone involved in the beta.
<!--quoteo(post=1859723:date=Jul 11 2011, 04:13 PM:name=Techercizer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Techercizer @ Jul 11 2011, 04:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1859723"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why would ditching 45-second coding tweaks like build time, damage output, damage output, speed, energy management, resource cost, and resource gain make the game, whose development cycle is closer measured in years, come out any noticeably quicker? And what if by ditching those things, you miss out on the opportunity to develop fun new features that could improve the final product?
I don't see how flat-out abandoning game balance helps anyone in this situation.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Nice, way to quote what I said out of context. If you would read it all again I said that it should be a balance, exactly like they are doing now.
A patch consists of: new features/technology tweaks for the stuff from last patch
The game is more balanced now than ever. cysts works and fill their purpose (one the new feature), but they need tweaking, so wait for the next patch.
seems like mostly ppl that work with programming themselves (like me) understands that you can't count on making new features and large patches and not get any bugs or imbalances. You should instead be prepared for the opposite, and fix it. Like UWE does.
Why cut a potentially great feature out of the game (cysts) because it's not great at 1st implementation?
Are you guys ignoring the fact that NS2 is set up in Tiers? Like Tier 1, Tier 2 and so on.
They are releasing most of the new features in the Tiers. We are currently on Tier 2 so if they perfect balance for Tier 2 then the Tier 2 play of a game will be fine. If both teams are not on Tier 2 (Say if one is on Tier 2 and the other is on Tier 1) then that is that teams fault for being slow and not upgrading quick enough. Tier 3 should be able to easily kill Tier 2, Tier 2 should easily be able to kill Tier 1.
Making the game balanced is fine. If one team had Skulks and the other team had E.X.O then that isn't unbalanced that is just a crap alien team.
<!--quoteo(post=1859953:date=Jul 12 2011, 03:10 PM:name=Papayas)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Papayas @ Jul 12 2011, 03:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1859953"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->... Making the game balanced is fine. If one team had Skulks and the other team had E.X.O then that isn't unbalanced that is just a crap alien team.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well said sir.
These forums are full of such vocal and opinionated people. UWE please rest assured that people who play but don't post, are obviously in favour of the way you are patching and releasing content. Every patch for the last 6 months I have been saying to myself yeah this game is really coming along. Telling my friends (with less patience and time) yeah get ready to buy, its almost there now.
Obviously there is no point nitty-gritty balancing a game without full features, or one with so few people actively playing. But the bigger problems like marine turtling and fade/lerk invincibility are getting smart fixes. Kudos to the devs, it must be hard to A. keep balancing intelligently according to the real data and not whiny forum noobs, and B. keep coming on the forums to get a real community forming.
Many devs do not even post on their forums because of the terrible communities that inevitably forum around the official websites, a great example is league of legends, they were active for ages, and now nothing seems to get addressed, OLD bugs hang around for ages with no dev posts addressing them. Early days yet but I have confidence the UWE guys know what kind of community they are trying to form, know the market and audience they want, and have the techical skill, intelligence and drive to get this game there. Even if it is on (valve)(blizzard)(UWE) time.
Keep it up team, in 1 or 2 years I expect to see ns2hd up there with day9 and DJwheat casting the ns2 MLG championship tournament. Can't wait to see the console fools who 360 in < 2 seconds dethroned.
<!--quoteo(post=1860022:date=Jul 12 2011, 12:09 PM:name=evanbenn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (evanbenn @ Jul 12 2011, 12:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1860022"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->UWE please rest assured that people who play but don't post, are obviously in favour of the way you are patching and releasing content.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If they don't post how on earth do you know what any of them think!?
It's much more likely that people who don't post are appreciating the game, because people who aren't tend to go WHARGARBL I AM ANGRY UWE IS HITLER AND SATAN AT THE SAME TIME GARBL WORSE THEN THE HOLOCAUST GARBL YOU ######S RUINED THE GAME IOFSDHALJFHLWEKH
I am only posting to help UWE improve the game to the best standard to make them and every other player happy. Without play testers and a community that <u>communicates</u> with them then NS2 would probably be different and most likely take longer.
It's my understanding that the old cast-to-infest system ("alien goo from the skies") was a placeholder for the new cyst-centric system, and replacing it sounds a lot like a new feature being implemented to me.
Comments
So it's only expected that things will break after a huge patch like this.
a few might stop playing, most of us will stay. I'm having more fun in 180 than 179 running around like a skulk.
<!--quoteo(post=1859056:date=Jul 9 2011, 02:18 PM:name=subshadow)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (subshadow @ Jul 9 2011, 02:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1859056"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just limit personal res to 100.
Every income given when reaching max res, is randomly distributed to another player (or even the comm).
So if someone is a good skulks, he can fade early. Upon maxing his own res, he also helps the other players to get higher lifeforms<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
something along these lines would be good. I currently run around with 250-300 pres in mid-end game as a skulk and I feel like the gorges could use it better =P
A more enjoyable beta = more players = more income = more resources available to help develop the game.
A more enjoyable beta = more players = more income = more resources available to help develop the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
revenue is one of the big factors for any company, but there have to be a balance between spending time making the game fun, and making progress getting to release. that's when the real sale begins.
I'm in favour of imbalance if it means we will get the final (and by then balanced) product faster.
Why would ditching 45-second coding tweaks like build time, damage output, damage output, speed, energy management, resource cost, and resource gain make the game, whose development cycle is closer measured in years, come out any noticeably quicker? And what if by ditching those things, you miss out on the opportunity to develop fun new features that could improve the final product?
I don't see how flat-out abandoning game balance helps anyone in this situation.
Seriously, these guys are working their nuts off on many fronts.
Oh, and my complaint about the fade is only that his energy is ridiculous, fades were the easiest to take out the mass sentry farms IMO, and they cant even take out one on a full energy bar. The other changes were fine... the fade WAS overpowered last patch.
I'm in favour of imbalance if it means we will get the final (and by then balanced) product faster.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's more than just a big factor at this stage. A new company with no capital behind them making a product that takes god knows how many years worth of rent and salaries before it's finished is going to struggle! While I'm sure they are not totally relying on these preorders, they will also have to convince whoever is funding them that it will pay off eventually.
Having a player base paying for and enjoying the game in a nowhere near finished state is going to go a long way in achieving that I'm sure.
New Lerk
- Only tried it once...I sucked...need more info.
New Pathing System
- Has improved.
Cysts
Cysts exist
they look cool
they work.
they might be too weak. <--- This is a couple numbers.
I'm hoping another performance run.
And please please continue with having the gorge vomit up things.
I would vomit up a flower just to annoy some uppity marine.
And he would shoot it dead wasting ammo just to spite me.
That is a decision both for the good of the development of the game, and also to keep the game fun and playable for everyone involved in the beta.
--Cory
... please, polish what is actually done (not so much, but to playable version) and then do a next big features.
I don't see how flat-out abandoning game balance helps anyone in this situation.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nice, way to quote what I said out of context.
If you would read it all again I said that it should be a balance, exactly like they are doing now.
A patch consists of:
new features/technology
tweaks for the stuff from last patch
The game is more balanced now than ever. cysts works and fill their purpose (one the new feature),
but they need tweaking, so wait for the next patch.
seems like mostly ppl that work with programming themselves (like me) understands that you can't count on making new features and large patches and not get any bugs or imbalances.
You should instead be prepared for the opposite, and fix it. Like UWE does.
Why cut a potentially great feature out of the game (cysts) because it's not great at 1st implementation?
They are releasing most of the new features in the Tiers. We are currently on Tier 2 so if they perfect balance for Tier 2 then the Tier 2 play of a game will be fine. If both teams are not on Tier 2 (Say if one is on Tier 2 and the other is on Tier 1) then that is that teams fault for being slow and not upgrading quick enough. Tier 3 should be able to easily kill Tier 2, Tier 2 should easily be able to kill Tier 1.
Making the game balanced is fine. If one team had Skulks and the other team had E.X.O then that isn't unbalanced that is just a crap alien team.
Making the game balanced is fine. If one team had Skulks and the other team had E.X.O then that isn't unbalanced that is just a crap alien team.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well said sir.
These forums are full of such vocal and opinionated people. UWE please rest assured that people who play but don't post, are obviously in favour of the way you are patching and releasing content. Every patch for the last 6 months I have been saying to myself yeah this game is really coming along. Telling my friends (with less patience and time) yeah get ready to buy, its almost there now.
Obviously there is no point nitty-gritty balancing a game without full features, or one with so few people actively playing. But the bigger problems like marine turtling and fade/lerk invincibility are getting smart fixes. Kudos to the devs, it must be hard to
A. keep balancing intelligently according to the real data and not whiny forum noobs, and
B. keep coming on the forums to get a real community forming.
Many devs do not even post on their forums because of the terrible communities that inevitably forum around the official websites, a great example is league of legends, they were active for ages, and now nothing seems to get addressed, OLD bugs hang around for ages with no dev posts addressing them. Early days yet but I have confidence the UWE guys know what kind of community they are trying to form, know the market and audience they want, and have the techical skill, intelligence and drive to get this game there. Even if it is on (valve)(blizzard)(UWE) time.
Keep it up team, in 1 or 2 years I expect to see ns2hd up there with day9 and DJwheat casting the ns2 MLG championship tournament. Can't wait to see the console fools who 360 in < 2 seconds dethroned.
If they don't post how on earth do you know what any of them think!?