<!--quoteo(post=1860114:date=Jul 12 2011, 08:53 PM:name=azimaith)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (azimaith @ Jul 12 2011, 08:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1860114"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->--I personally think people are being a little bit spoiled when they bring up their objections as "Sometimes i'm killed and I can't really do anything about it." Well that happens some times, sometimes you will just get owned because of circumstances and you won't have any chance, you aren't entitled to always having one. I also find it increasingly odd how people are harping on "how frustrating it is to have your movement restricted." Why would you be entitled to always moving at your greatest ability at all times no matter the circumstances? For the L4D comparison, they slowed special infected because they wanted to encourage ambush style game play rather than just running at your opponent arms flailing, that is the game play they were after, its not the games fault if you don't like that gameplay.
Now, I'm not saying you don't have the right to complain or that you shouldn't be heard, because you should be heard, your opinion matters too, but in the end, the designers can't please everyone and they're going to pick a style of play and you'll have a choice, adapt or quit.
Personally, as much as I think jumping and spazzing out looks stupid, I wasn't about to quit NS2 for it anymore than NS1, but I have preferences, as does everyone. If you look at the scratchpad for change ideas it seems the devs are really leaning toward <b>ambush style play skulks and fades</b> with ideas like "Aliens can hide inside DI and emerge when a marine passes to attack." On the flip side, they aren't quite sure what role lerks fulfill and the current build is to try out a more in your face aggressive variety.
Whatever it ends up with will be cool, I just care that it doesn't ruin the atmosphere by its look, and by look I just mean look. If jump spam looks right, I don't care if its in play, if slow on hit looks artificial and atmosphere breaking, I don't want it in play either.
Right now NS2 is filling a niche, an immersive FPS game with tactical RPG elements and a variety of styles based on kit/evolution, the closest game to it being AvP. It is not quake, it is not UT, it is not COD:MW, I don't think we need to make it into any of those for it to be good.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I just noticed you edited the post so I'm gonna answer here rather than edit mine:
Again you have too simplistic view on the matter, it's not the sometimes people get into situations where they can't get out alive, if I jump alone into a group of marines defending their base then I do expect to die, nothing suprising about that. It's the idea of changing core gameplay mechanics turning <b>every fight into one</b>. Nobody is suggesting that you need to able to get out of any situation alive, but that core mechanics support actual skill intensive battles rather than Splinter Cell like fights where one tries to sneak around and one tries to find them, and that the first one to spot the other wins. This isn't a hide and seek game, it's an FPS. As to the whole entitlement thing, nobody besides you suggested anything about entitlement. It's again about providing actual skillbase combat rather than solely who is willing to sit down in a corner the longest. As for your L4D point, no ones argument was that in their opinion L4D is a bad game, but that style of gameplay is uninteresting and tedious and as such unfitting in of an FPS game like NS2. The special infected weren't designed to be glass cannons and play out like they do just because valve wanted infected players to solely rely on ambush tactics, it was because if the game needed to be balanced to give the survivor a chance who are only armed with limited supplies and sporadic respawns requiring at least one member to be alive at all times going against special infected who can endlessly respawn every 20 seconds and with the regular infected as a support. So the question is are gameplay conventions designed to balance this kind of gameplay valid in a 2 team tactical deathmatch where both teams are supposed to be evenly strong?
And yes indeed it's the developer choice, that's exactly why we're in this thread pointing out flaws in the most recent <b>experimental build of a beta version of the game</b>.
Again you seem to be inclined to think that just because people aren't playing one of the beta builds that has something to do with not playing the finished product. I personally can't say what the dev team are or are not leaning towards to. From my perspective all I can tell is that they are currently trying out some gameplay mechanic changes revolving around impairing movement, and asked people to give feedback about it. But who knows, perhaps you have some more in depth information about their mindset that you'd like to share?
Cool I can get, but I am sort of at a loss here. Are you saying that in a competitive game if something is gameplay wise superior and more enjoyable, but won't fit your scope of immersive atmosphere, it's unplayable or at least unenjoyable for you? Because immersion seems like one of the last things on the priority list of a competitive game. Cool is nice, but I can't figure why immersion is such a huge thing as I can't imagine Quake, SC2, CS, or say CoD having immersion as a high valued factor in their multiplayer.
Yes NS is definitely a niche game, but looking at the games that you list and the general opinion that where you present that it should be ambush only or else it's "quake, UT, or Cod" it just seems that you're going to extreme pains to defend the opinion that slow on hit is a good thing without actually presenting arguments as to why it's good.
<!--quoteo(post=1860137:date=Jul 12 2011, 10:37 PM:name=TrC)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TrC @ Jul 12 2011, 10:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1860137"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I believe that the game priorities be it your own resource tower / hive / scouting information / other intelligence like enemy tech / countering or any other thing you value are constantly changing due your own and your enemy actions. If you limit the ability only optimal for ambushing or camping you'll end up with very much slower and less interactive game, not to mention it is very poor to assume enemy does as you please always even if it worked two or three times.
If you really could just leap and kill them without counting the probability of winning or gaining something it would hardly be interesting and be only flawed but it should not be removed for that reason. Although majority of the players are like this at the moment and end up here whining imbalance.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This would be one of the key points I'm trying to argue for, the slowdown mechanic in the end takes away from the game rather than adding to it. And I have a huge problem understanding why it is a good thing to limit the depth of your game by rendering alternative tactics that provide variety useless.
<!--quoteo(post=1860134:date=Jul 12 2011, 10:33 PM:name=Abalith)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Abalith @ Jul 12 2011, 10:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1860134"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Of course I'm not suggesting everybody will have that narrow minded scope as that would indeed be absurd but some will. Suggesting only NS1 vets can have a valid opinion on the gameplay of NS2 is also absurd. It's not up for debate that people don't like change and is an obstacle in the development phase of all beta's that you will get opinions of people who are just upset they are pwning as much as they were yesterday. As an example, there were people on these forums within a few hours of the patch going live crying that marines are OP and skulks are useless - There is no chance those are objective opinions, they are just knee-jerk reactions due to change. If they still have the same thoughts on it after a couple weeks of testing then fair enough.
My kdr as skulk has improved in 180 and that is the sole reason I state it is not any harder. That may not have anything to do with the slowdown, I didn't say it did, that's just my experience of it.
Yes I do play a more ambush style of gameplay, doesn't everyone? Rush a marine directly down his line of fire and you are asking for trouble, slowdown on hit or not.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nobody implied that NS1 experience is the token of absolute authority, the reason why it's there as it has been discussed on posts before and it is because some understanding of where the player's opinion is coming from is better than no understanding at all.
The reason why I pointed out your kdr is because you probably hadn't familiarized yourself with how the movement during combat adds to the skulk's arsenal if you favor ambush style gameplay, and thus wouldn't be intuitively aware of what it is that how much slow on hit takes away from skulks. And I can tell you that no, everyone doesn't focus mainly on ambush. People who are familiar with multiple forms of tactics utilize the tactic that in their opinion suits the situation best, and waiting for marines to advance to the position you're in isn't the only solution. Sometimes you want to get offensive and add pressure, cut them off, force an engagement for whatever reason in somewhere particular, or just take out the marine as fast as you can to avoid their progress over the map.
Slow on hit makes ambush the only viable option of tactic, but what I'm asking again is why on earth does it need to be the only considerable tactic available?
ambush style play is fine but not only does its effectiveness depend heavily on map based rather than skill based factors but it doesnt necessarily have to be 'incentivised' by slow on hit. For instance lowering skulk hp's would achieve the same result minus the slowass crawling and marine kiting. And besides, when was it ever 'not much of an advantage' to be able to position right behind a marines ass for free bite while maintaining 3 leaps rather than 2 in reserve? wat??
<!--quoteo(post=1860171:date=Jul 13 2011, 01:03 AM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Jul 13 2011, 01:03 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1860171"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->ambush style play is fine but not only does its effectiveness depend heavily on map based rather than skill based factors but it doesnt necessarily have to be 'incentivised' by slow on hit. For instance lowering skulk hp's would achieve the same result minus the slowass crawling and marine kiting. And besides, when was it ever 'not much of an advantage' to be able to position right behind a marines ass for free bite while maintaining 3 leaps rather than 2 in reserve? wat??<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh yes, ambush style of gameplay is perfectly fine, but is it really beneficial or necessary for the game to make that the only viable style of play?
Threads like these are why a lot of developers stop listening to there player base. You complainers are far to invested in a particular play style. I see alien only players complaining endlessly about how OP marine movement is. So what does Unknown worlds entertainment do? They nerf marine movement which then means they have to create some other type of mechanism to balance out the game. Knock back is this balance that is very much needed now since you guys are intent on marines being incapable of moving at all once attacked. Another thing is skulks are supposed to be an ambush based class. A lot of people use them improperly then wonder why they get dominated by a marine down a huge hallway. It doesn't take a genius to figure out why you died.
TLDR: Stop with the knee jerk complaining it's getting old. If you can't understand game balance it's best you probably don't even bring it up. Because honestly a lot of you just sound like whiny forum trolls who want the game molded for you personally.
<!--quoteo(post=1860206:date=Jul 13 2011, 02:35 AM:name=lego)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (lego @ Jul 13 2011, 02:35 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1860206"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Threads like these are why a lot of developers stop listening to there player base. A lot of you are way to invested in a particular play style. I see alien only players complaining endlessly about how OP marine movement is. So what does Unknown worlds entertainment do? They nerf marine movement which then means they have to create some other type of mechanism to balance out the game. Knock back is this balance that is very much needed now since you guys are intent on marines being incapable of moving at all once attacked. Another thing is skulks are supposed to be an ambush based class. A lot of people use them improperly then wonder why they get dominated by a marine down a huge hallway. It doesn't take a genius to figure out why you died.
TLDR: Stop with the knee jerk complaining it's getting old. If you can't understand game balance it's best you probably don't even bring it up. Because honestly a lot of you just sound like whiny forum trolls who want the game molded for you personally.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Did you even begin to read this thread or was that a knee jerk response so you could get to vent your personal feelings of how current internet behavior is rather annoying? Yes there is a thread about marines hopping being a bad thing but that hasn't been represented in this one besides a couple of posters. The main argument has evolved into whether limiting game mechanics for the favor of simplicity (ambush focused gameplay through penalizing movement) is a good thing, or is the cost of removing skill based movement in combat situations damaging to the depth of the game mechanics. This applies to both marine and kharaa sides, and only devs in the end are qualified to make that choice for their game, but to be fair the devs also asked for player opinion on this change. And while the topic title might sound inflammatory at first glance, but when you look at the actual topic it seems that only a minority really seems to be okay with slow on hit mechanic.
Also again I'd like to point out how you call out that "knock back is the balance needed since <b>we</b> are intent on marines being icapable of moving at all once attacked" shows how you actually just came to this thread to vent your personal frustration, but then ironically doing so by calling everyone else a knee jerk complainer. How about you put a bit more time reading the entire threads and formulate posts with more careful thought as otherwise you end up doing something silly like this and looking like a hypocrite.
Oh and you're just claiming that "skulk is an ambush based class" but not giving any basis over this argument just expecting it to be accepted at face value, so then what you mean by this that skulks shouldn't be able to keep on fighting besides taking down that first target because why exactly? Why is it a bad thing if the game mechanics make it possible through development of skill to use less predictable movement as a skulk making it more difficult for a marine to predict where to shoot? You claim people are using them improperly but you're giving absolutely no base as to what is proper use and you simply just assume that everyone plays skulk based on your personal preference which once again is ironic as how you came to this thread complaining how "people sound like whiny trolls who want the game molded for them personally".
This all was already in the game, they now added a restriction which removed it. Now the question being raised here is that does anyone agree with the change and if so then why. And as to why the question is presented as such you can read the previous posts in the thread.
<!--quoteo(post=1860211:date=Jul 12 2011, 06:52 PM:name=Garyoak)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Garyoak @ Jul 12 2011, 06:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1860211"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Did you even begin to read this thread or was that a knee jerk response so you could get to vent your personal feelings of how current internet behavior is rather annoying? Yes there is a thread about marines hopping being a bad thing but that hasn't been represented in this one besides a couple of posters. The main argument has evolved into whether limiting game mechanics for the favor of simplicity (ambush focused gameplay through penalizing movement) is a good thing, or is the cost of removing skill based movement in combat situations damaging to the depth of the game mechanics. This applies to both marine and kharaa sides, and only devs in the end are qualified to make that choice for their game, but to be fair the devs also asked for player opinion on this change. And while the topic title might sound inflammatory at first glance, but when you look at the actual topic it seems that only a minority really seems to be okay with slow on hit mechanic.
Also again I'd like to point out how you call out that "knock back is the balance needed since <b>we</b> are intent on marines being icapable of moving at all once attacked" shows how you actually just came to this thread to vent your personal frustration, but then ironically doing so by calling everyone else a knee jerk complainer. How about you put a bit more time reading the entire threads and formulate posts with more careful thought as otherwise you end up doing something silly like this and looking like a hypocrite.
Oh and you're just claiming that "skulk is an ambush based class" but not giving any basis over this argument just expecting it to be accepted at face value, so then what you mean by this that skulks shouldn't be able to keep on fighting besides taking down that first target because why exactly? Why is it a bad thing if the game mechanics make it possible through development of skill to use less predictable movement as a skulk making it more difficult for a marine to predict where to shoot? You claim people are using them improperly but you're giving absolutely no base as to what is proper use and you simply just assume that everyone plays skulk based on your personal preference which once again is ironic as how you came to this thread complaining how "people sound like whiny trolls who want the game molded for them personally".
This all was already in the game, they now added a restriction which removed it. Now the question being raised here is that does anyone agree with the change and if so then why. And as to why the question is presented as such you can read the previous posts in the thread.
I'll definitely +1 that. I don't like it restricting marine nor alien gameplay.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have to give you kudos on creating the worst forum response I have read in 8 years. If you can't handle the fact that UWE is still in the process of balancing the game maybe all you whiners should take a break for a couple builds. I think a lot of you forget that this is beta. Beta means an unfinished product which is on the eventual way of being finished. By the way you are right I am frustrated it's annoying coming to the forums trying to see whats new and all I am greeted with are posts rehashing the same cries from months past.
<!--quoteo(post=1860218:date=Jul 12 2011, 07:21 PM:name=lego)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (lego @ Jul 12 2011, 07:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1860218"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I have to give you kudos on creating the worst forum response I have read in 8 years. If you can't handle the fact that UWE is still in the process of balancing the game maybe all you whiners should take a break for a couple builds. I think a lot of you forget that this is beta. Beta means an unfinished product which is on the eventual way of being finished. By the way you are right I am frustrated it's annoying coming to the forums trying to see whats new and all I am greeted with are posts rehashing the same cries from months past.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
wat
The slowdown on hit is from the last patch. We're discussing how no one thinks its fun, not how balanced it is.
<!--quoteo(post=1860218:date=Jul 13 2011, 03:21 AM:name=lego)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (lego @ Jul 13 2011, 03:21 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1860218"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I have to give you kudos on creating the worst forum response I have read in 8 years. If you can't handle the fact that UWE is still in the process of balancing the game maybe all you whiners should take a break for a couple builds. I think a lot of you forget that this is beta. Beta means an unfinished product which is on the eventual way of being finished. By the way you are right I am frustrated it's annoying coming to the forums trying to see whats new and all I am greeted with are posts rehashing the same cries from months past.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again it seems that you're the one with issues being unable to handle something, and that being coming face to face with the irony of your forum behavior. You come to thread about peoples opinions and in a twist of complete irony whine about people "whining" when they discussing about the <u>latest</u> addition to the game, and then say how we are crying about the same stuff from months ago.
Nope, you're just here in complete irony whining about the ghosts of your past and trying to force those issues on this discussion. This is about the slow on hit effect on the gameplay, such discussion was requested by the developers themselves as can be quoted from the patch notes: "Players are slowed somewhat when they take damage (not gas or flame damage). This is an experimental change, please be sure to let us know what you think!".
The fact that you simply claim something to be "the worst thing ever" but don't even put the effort to point out what's wrong is proof of how you just got caught with egg on your face and you're now unwilling to accept that. Please stop being so ironic, you're simply falling into the slippery slope of becoming a troll in hopes of falsely saving your dignity.
Now if you do have an opinion about the slow on hit, or you have an opinion on other peoples opinion on slow on hit then please do share it. But if it's all this "you guys are whiners because you point out something unpleasant about the latest patch" all you're doing is exactly what you're demanding that other forum users refrain from.
Oh and you can go read <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=114165&view=findpost&p=1860217" target="_blank">this</a> as show of proof that devs are actually looking for discussion about their latest patch changes, and that includes both the good and the bad. Just whining doesn't give any useful information, but well formulated opinions in a discussion gives actual information that the devs can use to make their own decisions what to do with the game.
The fact that slowdown even made it into a <i>beta</i> build sends up a red flag to me. Developers need to have <i>some</i> idea of how changes will affect the game before they are implemented. It makes my trust in Flayra's ability waver a bit.
<!--quoteo(post=1860218:date=Jul 13 2011, 10:21 AM:name=lego)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (lego @ Jul 13 2011, 10:21 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1860218"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I have to give you kudos on creating the worst forum response I have read in 8 years. If you can't handle the fact that UWE is still in the process of balancing the game maybe all you whiners should take a break for a couple builds. I think a lot of you forget that this is beta. Beta means an unfinished product which is on the eventual way of being finished. By the way you are right I am frustrated it's annoying coming to the forums trying to see whats new and all I am greeted with are posts rehashing the same cries from months past.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
hey look gais! i just quoted some text i never even read and now im going to formulate a moronic, random, out of context reply to prove that i am so much better than eveyrone else on the internet. Man i got soo frustrated trying to find out what the 180 changes were from the FRONTPAGE with no luck, so i came to a random forum topic to find out!
<!--quoteo(post=1860127:date=Jul 12 2011, 09:01 AM:name=Garyoak)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Garyoak @ Jul 12 2011, 09:01 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1860127"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm sorry but that's just completely too simplistic thinking. Choice of tactic is not only about ease of effort but the major decisive factor is the options you have available and which is situationally best tactic to apply. People actively used ambushes as defensive guerilla tactic even without <b>forcing</b> players to rely on that tactic only through mechanics.
What you're saying is that ambushing is superior gameplay because it has more tedious waiting attached to it? To give you a point of reference I'd like to remind you that even in NS1 ambushing was considered a poor tactic comparable to camping in other FPS games as it gives a player an edge without having to invest anything else into it except time (as opposed to developing skill in combat).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> No, I'm saying ambushing is <b>more work intensive game play.</b> I think ambushing is less skill based than crazy jumping around (which is not saying its "skill-less", but its also better looking in the setting.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also you're implying that a surprise attack by skulk isn't really viable because it doesn't give a near irrecoverable advantage to that player, but why should it turn into a "single hit leads to kill" style of gameplay (familiar to the CoD style of "pseudo-realistic" gameplay, which has hardly no competitiveness in it)? With a surprise attack a skulk gets the first strike so he's ahead in damage dealt, he gets the superior angle of attack, and that combined with possibly taking a marine off-guard a skulk is ahead thanks to his ambush. This means that if you ambush a player with lower, similar, or slightly higher skill level than you, you'd be able to take him down thanks to your advantage, but this also would leave room for relatively more skillful players than the assailing skulk to fight their way out of the ambush, giving players actual control of the situation through the game mechanics rather than "artificially" crippling them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm saying that a surprise attack by a skulk is <u>less</u> decisive because it doesn't give you a large advantage without slow on hit. The first hit matters, but you can fairly easily get the first hit in by simply leaping, thus I don't see the "first hit advantage" without slow as being especially conducive to ambushing because you could get the same result by leaping. In the end, in response to an ambush a marine player is going to look at his feet at the first bite then run away/bhop backward, the range is too short and the skulk is too big to really be hard to locate and if you don't see him in front of you, you know where he is.
<!--quoteo(post=1860144:date=Jul 12 2011, 10:07 AM:name=Garyoak)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Garyoak @ Jul 12 2011, 10:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1860144"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I just noticed you edited the post so I'm gonna answer here rather than edit mine:
Again you have too simplistic view on the matter, it's not the sometimes people get into situations where they can't get out alive, if I jump alone into a group of marines defending their base then I do expect to die, nothing suprising about that. It's the idea of changing core gameplay mechanics turning <b>every fight into one</b>. Nobody is suggesting that you need to able to get out of any situation alive, but that core mechanics support actual skill intensive battles rather than Splinter Cell like fights where one tries to sneak around and one tries to find them, and that the first one to spot the other wins. This isn't a hide and seek game, it's an FPS. As to the whole entitlement thing, nobody besides you suggested anything about entitlement. It's again about providing actual skillbase combat rather than solely who is willing to sit down in a corner the longest. As for your L4D point, no ones argument was that in their opinion L4D is a bad game, but that style of gameplay is uninteresting and tedious and as such unfitting in of an FPS game like NS2. The special infected weren't designed to be glass cannons and play out like they do just because valve wanted infected players to solely rely on ambush tactics, it was because if the game needed to be balanced to give the survivor a chance who are only armed with limited supplies and sporadic respawns requiring at least one member to be alive at all times going against special infected who can endlessly respawn every 20 seconds and with the regular infected as a support. So the question is are gameplay conventions designed to balance this kind of gameplay valid in a 2 team tactical deathmatch where both teams are supposed to be evenly strong?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Are both teams really meant to be equally strong? The teams are quite different with different evolutions/equipment sets being vastly different in power level. 1 Skulk does not equate to one marine, same with the Fade and certainly the Onos, this can't be balanced like UT because this isn't anything like it. Not everyone is the same separated only by their weapons, this game has heavily asymetric balance which means that some classes will be "Who gets spotted first dies" and others will not be.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And yes indeed it's the developer choice, that's exactly why we're in this thread pointing out flaws in the most recent <b>experimental build of a beta version of the game</b>.
Again you seem to be inclined to think that just because people aren't playing one of the beta builds that has something to do with not playing the finished product. I personally can't say what the dev team are or are not leaning towards to. From my perspective all I can tell is that they are currently trying out some gameplay mechanic changes revolving around impairing movement, and asked people to give feedback about it. But who knows, perhaps you have some more in depth information about their mindset that you'd like to share?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Like I said, you should look here: <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=113258" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=113258</a> as its showing the current thought process about how the game should go. It looks like they're really looking for an ALIENS style vibe with things like rising out of DI.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Cool I can get, but I am sort of at a loss here. Are you saying that in a competitive game if something is gameplay wise superior and more enjoyable, but won't fit your scope of immersive atmosphere, it's unplayable or at least unenjoyable for you? Because immersion seems like one of the last things on the priority list of a competitive game. Cool is nice, but I can't figure why immersion is such a huge thing as I can't imagine Quake, SC2, CS, or say CoD having immersion as a high valued factor in their multiplayer.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Look at NS2's engine, look at what it does well, shadows, lightning, look at the HUD for NS2 and compare it to Quake, one is much cleaner and less prevalent. NS2 is a competitive game where atmosphere is vitally important. If atmosphere wasn't important you could just run an engine for maximum FPS and not worry about shadows, who would need them. Immersion makes the game experience, the atmosphere is what separates everything, what defines what a game is. Whats the reason to make Serious Sam different from CoD:MW, or Battlefield 2 from Quake? Its the setting of the game, and if you don't evoke the setting you essentially have a generic shooter. NS2 is not a generic shooter, they are looking to put a certain feel in the game and it is as important as anything else. I think you and I just have a fundamental disconnect on what NS2 is supposed to be. You seem to see it as Quake 2 but with an alien team, I see it as an atmospheric shooter set in a unique universe. Naturally I just feel mine is more what the developers want, but that's no surprise, I'm seeing it from my perspective.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yes NS is definitely a niche game, but looking at the games that you list and the general opinion that where you present that it should be ambush only or else it's "quake, UT, or Cod" it just seems that you're going to extreme pains to defend the opinion that slow on hit is a good thing without actually presenting arguments as to why it's good.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm not certain where you are getting this impression, especially when I've said "I don't care as long as it looks good and fitting with the setting." If it looks good and plays well, and fits the setting it could be a reskinned Quake II and it wouldn't even bother me. Slow on hit is currently encouraging one sort of game play, ambush, especially for the skulk, if this is not the desired result or the result is too broadly applied, change it by all means, as long as the game doesn't break atmosphere the end result is the same, immersion and brand definition.
I like playing the new skulk, mid game I have about 20-35 kills, the 2nd guy usually have like 10-15.(i play euro servers) sure it's not about the kills but I do spend most my time taking out powernodes/extractors and general harassments.
The new skulk is pretty map dependent, but on summit it works great. there's almost always a vent, side path or similar that you can take. I play the ambush style, but I don't just sit and wait, if you see the marine coming in the corridor, pop into a vent, go around, and bite his heels off. you can play pretty aggressively, quickly hide, and then attack. If you are spotted you can just 'go for it' and if he is alone kill him unless he got a decent shotgun aim. or use your leap to get away, flank and strike.
Leap works wonders against the slow down, just don't expect it to work if you blindly leap toward the marine. (like I used to do in 179 =P) The effect could be toned down a bit, or changed. because as ppl learn the "best" spots good marines will check them.
the only annoying thing is that the skulk sound too much when idle, making ambushing harder.
Long and badly structured post coming up, try to hang on...
---
I think it's a bit unnerving if there's much talk about 'ambush style'.
At least for me big part of the beauty of NS1 skulk was that it didn't have any clearly distinct styles because it was able to fluently combine everything into one package. You could travel the map quick, turn it into a sneak, climb up to ledge and then attack the marine with a huge explosive speed down the ledge. There's some sneakiness and ambushing there, but it's all seamlessly combined with a lot of other wonderfully creative skulk stuff. Skulk is a lifeform, not some vehicle with a gearbox that has modes labeled as ambush or rush.
Notably also, the marines are human players that have right to play smart and avoid ambushes. As people get better playing the game, skulks simply will not get those picture perfect ambushes. It's a lot more about turning a semi-succesful ambush into a well timed charge. At that point the slowdown puts quite lot of emphasis on marine reaction time.
One thing I can see being problematic in the future is how dependand the skulking experience is on the marines you're facing. Both the rifle knockback and slowdown are something skulk has very little saying when the marine plays his cards right. Even NS1 had some skulk moments where you felt you were too reliant on the opposing marine performance no matter how good your own skulk play was. So far NS2 seems to take that issue even further by giving marines even more possibilities to abuse the distance and to avoid any aerial attacks.
---
If we somehow can <b>ignore the bhop involved</b> and <b>talk about the rest of the stuff seen here</b>:
Lots of awesome skulk stuff requires you to risk taking a couple of bullets (against top tier marines even more so). A good player can often judge whether there is enough HP to survive the bullets. Meanwhile with slowdown there's much more emphasis on the single first bullet landing, which is both a lot more unpredictable and difficult to estimate and also more limiting to the general options of getting exposed to gunfire.
In the video clip Mu trades quite a lot of HP for the access to the weird smelting cranes, which then leads into interesting situation that Mu capitalizes with an immensely important frag. With slowdown changing position like that and the dynamics involved would be absolute no-go. Instead of "Do I have the HP?" or "Is it worth the HP loss?" it becomes a lot more of "Can't" or "I just hope the marine doesn't turn around" even with full HP.
Unless someone with better understanding of the mechanic can point out some actual positive depth influences with the slowdown I'd rather not have it in the game. I obviously look this from a viewpoint where skulk is probably my all time favourite FPS gaming experience, but at least from that viewpoint there's nothing inviting in the feature. For NS1 skulk it seems just less options and more blind gambling on marine reacting slow enough to not land a single bullet.
The Slow on hit seems to be a big problem under 2 events in particular, 1) Marine has a clear LOS on you and can pin you to the wall till you die. 2) sentry turrets can prevent you from escaping or even moving.
I vote remove Slow on hit, Knock back with rifle butt is Awesome though and should stay!
SewlekThe programmer previously known as SchimmelJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16247Members, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, Subnautica Developer
i havent played 180, unfortunately, but i was already worried about slow on hit before (regarding slowed aliens, not marines). i was all for slowing down marines once they get hit, to prevent strafe jump spam and to give more value to rifle knock back (which just got implemented aswell)
as i am understanding it right now when reading your posts, is that the gameplay feels quite lame for alien side but i dont hear so much noise from marine side. i would offer the devs to remove slow on hit for aliens, maybe only mini guns can slow?, and keep the slow for marines. once a marine is slowed, they either have the fire power (shotgun, minigun) to win close combat or the rifle knockback to clear a situation, which both require skill / aim. would be worth trying out in 181
<!--quoteo(post=1860458:date=Jul 13 2011, 04:52 PM:name=Schimmel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Schimmel @ Jul 13 2011, 04:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1860458"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i havent played 180, unfortunately, but i was already worried about slow on hit before (regarding slowed aliens, not marines). i was all for slowing down marines once they get hit, to prevent strafe jump spam and to give more value to rifle knock back (which just got implemented aswell)
as i am understanding it right now when reading your posts, is that the gameplay feels quite lame for alien side but i dont hear so much noise from marine side. i would offer the devs to remove slow on hit for aliens, maybe only mini guns can slow?, and keep the slow for marines. once a marine is slowed, they either have the fire power (shotgun, minigun) to win close combat or the rifle knockback to clear a situation, which both require skill / aim. would be worth trying out in 181<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's just as bad for marines. It feels like horrible unrewarding "who saw who" first gameplay. Skulk leaps and marines have about a second to react and then either they land the shotgun hit or they're dead.
It's exactly what I hate about every cod game ever.
<!--quoteo(post=1860321:date=Jul 13 2011, 06:50 AM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bacillus @ Jul 13 2011, 06:50 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1860321"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->At least for me big part of the beauty of NS1 skulk was that it didn't have any clearly distinct styles because it was able to fluently combine everything into one package. You could travel the map quick, turn it into a sneak, climb up to ledge and then attack the marine with a huge explosive speed down the ledge. There's some sneakiness and ambushing there, but it's all seamlessly combined with a lot of other wonderfully creative skulk stuff. Skulk is a lifeform, not some vehicle with a gearbox that has modes labeled as ambush or rush.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'd think the upgade system (Frenzy, Swarm, Carapace, Regen, etc.) could be used as a means of specialization if they really wanted to force the Skulk into a specific role. That way players can essentially choose their "build".
<!--quoteo(post=1860479:date=Jul 13 2011, 07:05 PM:name=TrueVeritas)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TrueVeritas @ Jul 13 2011, 07:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1860479"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's just as bad for marines. It feels like horrible unrewarding "who saw who" first gameplay. Skulk leaps and marines have about a second to react and then either they land the shotgun hit or they're dead.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--quoteo(post=1860321:date=Jul 13 2011, 06:50 AM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bacillus @ Jul 13 2011, 06:50 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1860321"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In the video clip Mu trades quite a lot of HP for the access to the weird smelting cranes, which then leads into interesting situation that Mu capitalizes with an immensely important frag. With slowdown changing position like that and the dynamics involved would be absolute no-go. Instead of "Do I have the HP?" or "Is it worth the HP loss?" it becomes a lot more of "Can't" or "I just hope the marine doesn't turn around" even with full HP.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> ^ These! In it's current implementation, slowdown makes Skulk combat even more binary. It's harder to improve your game when you've essentially got ONE action per life to decide the result of combat.
<!--quoteo(post=1860504:date=Jul 14 2011, 12:40 AM:name=KuBaN)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KuBaN @ Jul 14 2011, 12:40 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1860504"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'd think the upgade system (Frenzy, Swarm, Carapace, Regen, etc.) could be used as a means of specialization if they really wanted to force the Skulk into a specific role. That way players can essentially choose their "build".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't think it necessarily goes that far, not at least with every upgrade. In NS1 maybe cloak and silence somewhat ended up dictating their own way on how skulk engages, but for the rest of it it's more of variating the same swiss army knife approach of skulk.
No matter if you nearly double the HP of the skulk, it doesn't turn into a rusher for example. It still needs to use architecture, skulkpack tactics, stealth and momentarily explosive speed to close the distance in most cases.
After playing some more I actually don't think the slow is that bad. I feel like it makes the rifle a viable option rather than everyone getting shotguns as soon as they can. Perhaps it would work if only certain weapons (e.g. Rifle, but not shotgun) has a small slowdown effect.
I do feel that skulks shouldn't get slowed in mid-air though, nor should they be slowed when leaping away.
<!--quoteo(post=1860968:date=Jul 16 2011, 09:43 AM:name=Wilson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wilson @ Jul 16 2011, 09:43 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1860968"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->After playing some more I actually don't think the slow is that bad. I feel like it makes the rifle a viable option rather than everyone getting shotguns as soon as they can. Perhaps it would work if only certain weapons (e.g. Rifle, but not shotgun) has a small slowdown effect.
I do feel that skulks shouldn't get slowed in mid-air though, nor should they be slowed when leaping away.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I know the feeling, after you get over the initial shock it gets better whatever it is.
However as game is this unoptimized the reflexes and accuracy is bound to be much much faster not to mention hitboxes (hopefully) will be accurate that the game cannot handle any kind of slowdown because it will be too great.
You probably have not played lerk yet have you? Bad and slow control + slowdown is a pain even though lerk has worst almost non-existant hitboxes.
I have been playing NS since 02, I do not recall this being in NS1 the entire time I played except on modded servers.
In my personal opinion, I do not see why this needed to be added as a skilled player has no real problems shooting at a skulk. This just makes it easier and faster to kill them, along with the new knock back I think it may be a bit too much added bonus to marines. As I said, I do not think a slow was really required, it just seems to give marines more of an unneeded upper hand.
I cannot say I hate it, just that its not needed in the game at this current time.. Maybe when we have full access to the other chambers and abilities, but at this current moment it does seem to be a little unfair.
I like the "being hit slows you down" effect. It might be a little over the top right now, but I, personally, can see the merits of it. It serves as effect of being hit by bullets - essentially what you "lose" is your inertia/full speed char or whatever, but for that you would essentially also have to do the same with marines being hit/bitten.
Finally, I did play NS1, for a very very long time too, but I was never any good at it, and I play NS 2 as well, and I'm still no good at it - others may say otherwise about my skills, but thats just it, I leave the judgment of my gaming skills up to others, not myself.
Secondly I think its absolutely absurd that I have to have played long and be good in order to have an opinion that people will take seriously. Just because *you* are good at the game, doesn't make your opinion better or more right than mine, its a complete non sequitur. In fact I could easily argue how you being better than me, and having played longer, serves to taint the game's development if your opinions are listened to. "How do you figure?" you might ask. Well, you have an agenda to maintain your play style and the factors of the game that contribute to your skills (essentially how the game feels and works and responds to you, as you play and learn, is part of what makes you better). Suppose those things hold the game back from a potential innovation of genius proportions, or maybe just some...The point is, you have no right or badge by being a good player, over other people's opinions - you are of course free to disagree, I won't stop you from that - Your opinion however, given the context of game skill, carries the same weight as mine and I will consider it as such.
<!--quoteo(post=1860550:date=Jul 14 2011, 01:55 AM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bacillus @ Jul 14 2011, 01:55 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1860550"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't think it necessarily goes that far, not at least with every upgrade. In NS1 maybe cloak and silence somewhat ended up dictating their own way on how skulk engages, but for the rest of it it's more of variating the same swiss army knife approach of skulk.
No matter if you nearly double the HP of the skulk, it doesn't turn into a rusher for example. It still needs to use architecture, skulkpack tactics, stealth and momentarily explosive speed to close the distance in most cases.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I wasn't implying that it would. Players would obviously need to change their playstyle to fit that role, but certain abilities can be made to cater to those roles, to make performing the functions of those roles considerably easier than without them.
Also unsure what the intention of the NS1 mention was about.
twilitebluebug stalkerJoin Date: 2003-02-04Member: 13116Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1861170:date=Jul 17 2011, 04:18 AM:name=Papayas)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Papayas @ Jul 17 2011, 04:18 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1861170"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->One thing I really hate about bullets is that you can't tell if you are being shot until your screen goes red and it is too late.
Instead of Slow-on-hit how about the Screen shakes whenever you get hit (Bullet and Bite). That way people can respond to being shot quicker.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> There needs to be a "splat" hit sound like in NS1, as well as some blood on screen to clearly indicate to the player he/she is taking damage.
For a quick fix, increase the damage indicator: In GUIDamageIndicators.lua, line 14: GUIDamageIndicators.kIndicatorSize = 160
I dislike it because it takes control away from the player and dictates who gets the kill based on who sees who first. When I kill a player who is slowed, it doesn't feel rewarding. Aim, positioning, and movement should determine who lives and who dies, not whoever gets the first hit. Shooting or biting a player who is essentially stationary is not hard and it slows and dumbs the game down. Any mechanic that takes control away from a player or punishes them for attacking is simply not fun.
Comments
Well that happens some times, sometimes you will just get owned because of circumstances and you won't have any chance, you aren't entitled to always having one. I also find it increasingly odd how people are harping on "how frustrating it is to have your movement restricted." Why would you be entitled to always moving at your greatest ability at all times no matter the circumstances? For the L4D comparison, they slowed special infected because they wanted to encourage ambush style game play rather than just running at your opponent arms flailing, that is the game play they were after, its not the games fault if you don't like that gameplay.
Now, I'm not saying you don't have the right to complain or that you shouldn't be heard, because you should be heard, your opinion matters too, but in the end, the designers can't please everyone and they're going to pick a style of play and you'll have a choice, adapt or quit.
Personally, as much as I think jumping and spazzing out looks stupid, I wasn't about to quit NS2 for it anymore than NS1, but I have preferences, as does everyone. If you look at the scratchpad for change ideas it seems the devs are really leaning toward <b>ambush style play skulks and fades</b> with ideas like "Aliens can hide inside DI and emerge when a marine passes to attack." On the flip side, they aren't quite sure what role lerks fulfill and the current build is to try out a more in your face aggressive variety.
Whatever it ends up with will be cool, I just care that it doesn't ruin the atmosphere by its look, and by look I just mean look. If jump spam looks right, I don't care if its in play, if slow on hit looks artificial and atmosphere breaking, I don't want it in play either.
Right now NS2 is filling a niche, an immersive FPS game with tactical RPG elements and a variety of styles based on kit/evolution, the closest game to it being AvP. It is not quake, it is not UT, it is not COD:MW, I don't think we need to make it into any of those for it to be good.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I just noticed you edited the post so I'm gonna answer here rather than edit mine:
Again you have too simplistic view on the matter, it's not the sometimes people get into situations where they can't get out alive, if I jump alone into a group of marines defending their base then I do expect to die, nothing suprising about that. It's the idea of changing core gameplay mechanics turning <b>every fight into one</b>. Nobody is suggesting that you need to able to get out of any situation alive, but that core mechanics support actual skill intensive battles rather than Splinter Cell like fights where one tries to sneak around and one tries to find them, and that the first one to spot the other wins. This isn't a hide and seek game, it's an FPS. As to the whole entitlement thing, nobody besides you suggested anything about entitlement. It's again about providing actual skillbase combat rather than solely who is willing to sit down in a corner the longest. As for your L4D point, no ones argument was that in their opinion L4D is a bad game, but that style of gameplay is uninteresting and tedious and as such unfitting in of an FPS game like NS2. The special infected weren't designed to be glass cannons and play out like they do just because valve wanted infected players to solely rely on ambush tactics, it was because if the game needed to be balanced to give the survivor a chance who are only armed with limited supplies and sporadic respawns requiring at least one member to be alive at all times going against special infected who can endlessly respawn every 20 seconds and with the regular infected as a support. So the question is are gameplay conventions designed to balance this kind of gameplay valid in a 2 team tactical deathmatch where both teams are supposed to be evenly strong?
And yes indeed it's the developer choice, that's exactly why we're in this thread pointing out flaws in the most recent <b>experimental build of a beta version of the game</b>.
Again you seem to be inclined to think that just because people aren't playing one of the beta builds that has something to do with not playing the finished product. I personally can't say what the dev team are or are not leaning towards to. From my perspective all I can tell is that they are currently trying out some gameplay mechanic changes revolving around impairing movement, and asked people to give feedback about it. But who knows, perhaps you have some more in depth information about their mindset that you'd like to share?
Cool I can get, but I am sort of at a loss here. Are you saying that in a competitive game if something is gameplay wise superior and more enjoyable, but won't fit your scope of immersive atmosphere, it's unplayable or at least unenjoyable for you? Because immersion seems like one of the last things on the priority list of a competitive game. Cool is nice, but I can't figure why immersion is such a huge thing as I can't imagine Quake, SC2, CS, or say CoD having immersion as a high valued factor in their multiplayer.
Yes NS is definitely a niche game, but looking at the games that you list and the general opinion that where you present that it should be ambush only or else it's "quake, UT, or Cod" it just seems that you're going to extreme pains to defend the opinion that slow on hit is a good thing without actually presenting arguments as to why it's good.
<!--quoteo(post=1860137:date=Jul 12 2011, 10:37 PM:name=TrC)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TrC @ Jul 12 2011, 10:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1860137"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I believe that the game priorities be it your own resource tower / hive / scouting information / other intelligence like enemy tech / countering or any other thing you value are constantly changing due your own and your enemy actions. If you limit the ability only optimal for ambushing or camping you'll end up with very much slower and less interactive game, not to mention it is very poor to assume enemy does as you please always even if it worked two or three times.
If you really could just leap and kill them without counting the probability of winning or gaining something it would hardly be interesting and be only flawed but it should not be removed for that reason. Although majority of the players are like this at the moment and end up here whining imbalance.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This would be one of the key points I'm trying to argue for, the slowdown mechanic in the end takes away from the game rather than adding to it. And I have a huge problem understanding why it is a good thing to limit the depth of your game by rendering alternative tactics that provide variety useless.
<!--quoteo(post=1860134:date=Jul 12 2011, 10:33 PM:name=Abalith)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Abalith @ Jul 12 2011, 10:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1860134"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Of course I'm not suggesting everybody will have that narrow minded scope as that would indeed be absurd but some will. Suggesting only NS1 vets can have a valid opinion on the gameplay of NS2 is also absurd. It's not up for debate that people don't like change and is an obstacle in the development phase of all beta's that you will get opinions of people who are just upset they are pwning as much as they were yesterday. As an example, there were people on these forums within a few hours of the patch going live crying that marines are OP and skulks are useless - There is no chance those are objective opinions, they are just knee-jerk reactions due to change. If they still have the same thoughts on it after a couple weeks of testing then fair enough.
My kdr as skulk has improved in 180 and that is the sole reason I state it is not any harder. That may not have anything to do with the slowdown, I didn't say it did, that's just my experience of it.
Yes I do play a more ambush style of gameplay, doesn't everyone? Rush a marine directly down his line of fire and you are asking for trouble, slowdown on hit or not.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nobody implied that NS1 experience is the token of absolute authority, the reason why it's there as it has been discussed on posts before and it is because some understanding of where the player's opinion is coming from is better than no understanding at all.
The reason why I pointed out your kdr is because you probably hadn't familiarized yourself with how the movement during combat adds to the skulk's arsenal if you favor ambush style gameplay, and thus wouldn't be intuitively aware of what it is that how much slow on hit takes away from skulks. And I can tell you that no, everyone doesn't focus mainly on ambush. People who are familiar with multiple forms of tactics utilize the tactic that in their opinion suits the situation best, and waiting for marines to advance to the position you're in isn't the only solution. Sometimes you want to get offensive and add pressure, cut them off, force an engagement for whatever reason in somewhere particular, or just take out the marine as fast as you can to avoid their progress over the map.
Slow on hit makes ambush the only viable option of tactic, but what I'm asking again is why on earth does it need to be the only considerable tactic available?
Man! Look at how easy that was!
Oh yes, ambush style of gameplay is perfectly fine, but is it really beneficial or necessary for the game to make that the only viable style of play?
+1
+9000
TLDR: Stop with the knee jerk complaining it's getting old. If you can't understand game balance it's best you probably don't even bring it up. Because honestly a lot of you just sound like whiny forum trolls who want the game molded for you personally.
TLDR: Stop with the knee jerk complaining it's getting old. If you can't understand game balance it's best you probably don't even bring it up. Because honestly a lot of you just sound like whiny forum trolls who want the game molded for you personally.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Did you even begin to read this thread or was that a knee jerk response so you could get to vent your personal feelings of how current internet behavior is rather annoying? Yes there is a thread about marines hopping being a bad thing but that hasn't been represented in this one besides a couple of posters. The main argument has evolved into whether limiting game mechanics for the favor of simplicity (ambush focused gameplay through penalizing movement) is a good thing, or is the cost of removing skill based movement in combat situations damaging to the depth of the game mechanics. This applies to both marine and kharaa sides, and only devs in the end are qualified to make that choice for their game, but to be fair the devs also asked for player opinion on this change. And while the topic title might sound inflammatory at first glance, but when you look at the actual topic it seems that only a minority really seems to be okay with slow on hit mechanic.
Also again I'd like to point out how you call out that "knock back is the balance needed since <b>we</b> are intent on marines being icapable of moving at all once attacked" shows how you actually just came to this thread to vent your personal frustration, but then ironically doing so by calling everyone else a knee jerk complainer. How about you put a bit more time reading the entire threads and formulate posts with more careful thought as otherwise you end up doing something silly like this and looking like a hypocrite.
Oh and you're just claiming that "skulk is an ambush based class" but not giving any basis over this argument just expecting it to be accepted at face value, so then what you mean by this that skulks shouldn't be able to keep on fighting besides taking down that first target because why exactly? Why is it a bad thing if the game mechanics make it possible through development of skill to use less predictable movement as a skulk making it more difficult for a marine to predict where to shoot? You claim people are using them improperly but you're giving absolutely no base as to what is proper use and you simply just assume that everyone plays skulk based on your personal preference which once again is ironic as how you came to this thread complaining how "people sound like whiny trolls who want the game molded for them personally".
This all was already in the game, they now added a restriction which removed it. Now the question being raised here is that does anyone agree with the change and if so then why. And as to why the question is presented as such you can read the previous posts in the thread.
<!--quoteo(post=1860156:date=Jul 13 2011, 12:03 AM:name=NurEinMensch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NurEinMensch @ Jul 13 2011, 12:03 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1860156"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Please remove slow on hit.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'll definitely +1 that. I don't like it restricting marine nor alien gameplay.
Also again I'd like to point out how you call out that "knock back is the balance needed since <b>we</b> are intent on marines being icapable of moving at all once attacked" shows how you actually just came to this thread to vent your personal frustration, but then ironically doing so by calling everyone else a knee jerk complainer. How about you put a bit more time reading the entire threads and formulate posts with more careful thought as otherwise you end up doing something silly like this and looking like a hypocrite.
Oh and you're just claiming that "skulk is an ambush based class" but not giving any basis over this argument just expecting it to be accepted at face value, so then what you mean by this that skulks shouldn't be able to keep on fighting besides taking down that first target because why exactly? Why is it a bad thing if the game mechanics make it possible through development of skill to use less predictable movement as a skulk making it more difficult for a marine to predict where to shoot? You claim people are using them improperly but you're giving absolutely no base as to what is proper use and you simply just assume that everyone plays skulk based on your personal preference which once again is ironic as how you came to this thread complaining how "people sound like whiny trolls who want the game molded for them personally".
This all was already in the game, they now added a restriction which removed it. Now the question being raised here is that does anyone agree with the change and if so then why. And as to why the question is presented as such you can read the previous posts in the thread.
I'll definitely +1 that. I don't like it restricting marine nor alien gameplay.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have to give you kudos on creating the worst forum response I have read in 8 years. If you can't handle the fact that UWE is still in the process of balancing the game maybe all you whiners should take a break for a couple builds. I think a lot of you forget that this is beta. Beta means an unfinished product which is on the eventual way of being finished. By the way you are right I am frustrated it's annoying coming to the forums trying to see whats new and all I am greeted with are posts rehashing the same cries from months past.
wat
The slowdown on hit is from the last patch. We're discussing how no one thinks its fun, not how balanced it is.
Again it seems that you're the one with issues being unable to handle something, and that being coming face to face with the irony of your forum behavior. You come to thread about peoples opinions and in a twist of complete irony whine about people "whining" when they discussing about the <u>latest</u> addition to the game, and then say how we are crying about the same stuff from months ago.
Nope, you're just here in complete irony whining about the ghosts of your past and trying to force those issues on this discussion. This is about the slow on hit effect on the gameplay, such discussion was requested by the developers themselves as can be quoted from the patch notes: "Players are slowed somewhat when they take damage (not gas or flame damage). This is an experimental change, please be sure to let us know what you think!".
The fact that you simply claim something to be "the worst thing ever" but don't even put the effort to point out what's wrong is proof of how you just got caught with egg on your face and you're now unwilling to accept that. Please stop being so ironic, you're simply falling into the slippery slope of becoming a troll in hopes of falsely saving your dignity.
Now if you do have an opinion about the slow on hit, or you have an opinion on other peoples opinion on slow on hit then please do share it. But if it's all this "you guys are whiners because you point out something unpleasant about the latest patch" all you're doing is exactly what you're demanding that other forum users refrain from.
Oh and you can go read <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=114165&view=findpost&p=1860217" target="_blank">this</a> as show of proof that devs are actually looking for discussion about their latest patch changes, and that includes both the good and the bad. Just whining doesn't give any useful information, but well formulated opinions in a discussion gives actual information that the devs can use to make their own decisions what to do with the game.
Yes
The fact that slowdown even made it into a <i>beta</i> build sends up a red flag to me. Developers need to have <i>some</i> idea of how changes will affect the game before they are implemented. It makes my trust in Flayra's ability waver a bit.
hey look gais! i just quoted some text i never even read and now im going to formulate a moronic, random, out of context reply to prove that i am so much better than eveyrone else on the internet. Man i got soo frustrated trying to find out what the 180 changes were from the FRONTPAGE with no luck, so i came to a random forum topic to find out!
What you're saying is that ambushing is superior gameplay because it has more tedious waiting attached to it? To give you a point of reference I'd like to remind you that even in NS1 ambushing was considered a poor tactic comparable to camping in other FPS games as it gives a player an edge without having to invest anything else into it except time (as opposed to developing skill in combat).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, I'm saying ambushing is <b>more work intensive game play.</b> I think ambushing is less skill based than crazy jumping around (which is not saying its "skill-less", but its also better looking in the setting.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also you're implying that a surprise attack by skulk isn't really viable because it doesn't give a near irrecoverable advantage to that player, but why should it turn into a "single hit leads to kill" style of gameplay (familiar to the CoD style of "pseudo-realistic" gameplay, which has hardly no competitiveness in it)? With a surprise attack a skulk gets the first strike so he's ahead in damage dealt, he gets the superior angle of attack, and that combined with possibly taking a marine off-guard a skulk is ahead thanks to his ambush. This means that if you ambush a player with lower, similar, or slightly higher skill level than you, you'd be able to take him down thanks to your advantage, but this also would leave room for relatively more skillful players than the assailing skulk to fight their way out of the ambush, giving players actual control of the situation through the game mechanics rather than "artificially" crippling them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm saying that a surprise attack by a skulk is <u>less</u> decisive because it doesn't give you a large advantage without slow on hit. The first hit matters, but you can fairly easily get the first hit in by simply leaping, thus I don't see the "first hit advantage" without slow as being especially conducive to ambushing because you could get the same result by leaping. In the end, in response to an ambush a marine player is going to look at his feet at the first bite then run away/bhop backward, the range is too short and the skulk is too big to really be hard to locate and if you don't see him in front of you, you know where he is.
<!--quoteo(post=1860144:date=Jul 12 2011, 10:07 AM:name=Garyoak)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Garyoak @ Jul 12 2011, 10:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1860144"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I just noticed you edited the post so I'm gonna answer here rather than edit mine:
Again you have too simplistic view on the matter, it's not the sometimes people get into situations where they can't get out alive, if I jump alone into a group of marines defending their base then I do expect to die, nothing suprising about that. It's the idea of changing core gameplay mechanics turning <b>every fight into one</b>. Nobody is suggesting that you need to able to get out of any situation alive, but that core mechanics support actual skill intensive battles rather than Splinter Cell like fights where one tries to sneak around and one tries to find them, and that the first one to spot the other wins. This isn't a hide and seek game, it's an FPS. As to the whole entitlement thing, nobody besides you suggested anything about entitlement. It's again about providing actual skillbase combat rather than solely who is willing to sit down in a corner the longest. As for your L4D point, no ones argument was that in their opinion L4D is a bad game, but that style of gameplay is uninteresting and tedious and as such unfitting in of an FPS game like NS2. The special infected weren't designed to be glass cannons and play out like they do just because valve wanted infected players to solely rely on ambush tactics, it was because if the game needed to be balanced to give the survivor a chance who are only armed with limited supplies and sporadic respawns requiring at least one member to be alive at all times going against special infected who can endlessly respawn every 20 seconds and with the regular infected as a support. So the question is are gameplay conventions designed to balance this kind of gameplay valid in a 2 team tactical deathmatch where both teams are supposed to be evenly strong?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Are both teams really meant to be equally strong? The teams are quite different with different evolutions/equipment sets being vastly different in power level. 1 Skulk does not equate to one marine, same with the Fade and certainly the Onos, this can't be balanced like UT because this isn't anything like it. Not everyone is the same separated only by their weapons, this game has heavily asymetric balance which means that some classes will be "Who gets spotted first dies" and others will not be.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And yes indeed it's the developer choice, that's exactly why we're in this thread pointing out flaws in the most recent <b>experimental build of a beta version of the game</b>.
Again you seem to be inclined to think that just because people aren't playing one of the beta builds that has something to do with not playing the finished product. I personally can't say what the dev team are or are not leaning towards to. From my perspective all I can tell is that they are currently trying out some gameplay mechanic changes revolving around impairing movement, and asked people to give feedback about it. But who knows, perhaps you have some more in depth information about their mindset that you'd like to share?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Like I said, you should look here: <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=113258" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=113258</a> as its showing the current thought process about how the game should go. It looks like they're really looking for an ALIENS style vibe with things like rising out of DI.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Cool I can get, but I am sort of at a loss here. Are you saying that in a competitive game if something is gameplay wise superior and more enjoyable, but won't fit your scope of immersive atmosphere, it's unplayable or at least unenjoyable for you? Because immersion seems like one of the last things on the priority list of a competitive game. Cool is nice, but I can't figure why immersion is such a huge thing as I can't imagine Quake, SC2, CS, or say CoD having immersion as a high valued factor in their multiplayer.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Look at NS2's engine, look at what it does well, shadows, lightning, look at the HUD for NS2 and compare it to Quake, one is much cleaner and less prevalent. NS2 is a competitive game where atmosphere is vitally important. If atmosphere wasn't important you could just run an engine for maximum FPS and not worry about shadows, who would need them. Immersion makes the game experience, the atmosphere is what separates everything, what defines what a game is. Whats the reason to make Serious Sam different from CoD:MW, or Battlefield 2 from Quake? Its the setting of the game, and if you don't evoke the setting you essentially have a generic shooter. NS2 is not a generic shooter, they are looking to put a certain feel in the game and it is as important as anything else. I think you and I just have a fundamental disconnect on what NS2 is supposed to be. You seem to see it as Quake 2 but with an alien team, I see it as an atmospheric shooter set in a unique universe. Naturally I just feel mine is more what the developers want, but that's no surprise, I'm seeing it from my perspective.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yes NS is definitely a niche game, but looking at the games that you list and the general opinion that where you present that it should be ambush only or else it's "quake, UT, or Cod" it just seems that you're going to extreme pains to defend the opinion that slow on hit is a good thing without actually presenting arguments as to why it's good.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not certain where you are getting this impression, especially when I've said "I don't care as long as it looks good and fitting with the setting." If it looks good and plays well, and fits the setting it could be a reskinned Quake II and it wouldn't even bother me. Slow on hit is currently encouraging one sort of game play, ambush, especially for the skulk, if this is not the desired result or the result is too broadly applied, change it by all means, as long as the game doesn't break atmosphere the end result is the same, immersion and brand definition.
The new skulk is pretty map dependent, but on summit it works great. there's almost always a vent, side path or similar that you can take.
I play the ambush style, but I don't just sit and wait, if you see the marine coming in the corridor, pop into a vent, go around, and bite his heels off.
you can play pretty aggressively, quickly hide, and then attack.
If you are spotted you can just 'go for it' and if he is alone kill him unless he got a decent shotgun aim. or use your leap to get away, flank and strike.
Leap works wonders against the slow down, just don't expect it to work if you blindly leap toward the marine. (like I used to do in 179 =P)
The effect could be toned down a bit, or changed. because as ppl learn the "best" spots good marines will check them.
the only annoying thing is that the skulk sound too much when idle, making ambushing harder.
---
I think it's a bit unnerving if there's much talk about 'ambush style'.
At least for me big part of the beauty of NS1 skulk was that it didn't have any clearly distinct styles because it was able to fluently combine everything into one package. You could travel the map quick, turn it into a sneak, climb up to ledge and then attack the marine with a huge explosive speed down the ledge. There's some sneakiness and ambushing there, but it's all seamlessly combined with a lot of other wonderfully creative skulk stuff. Skulk is a lifeform, not some vehicle with a gearbox that has modes labeled as ambush or rush.
Notably also, the marines are human players that have right to play smart and avoid ambushes. As people get better playing the game, skulks simply will not get those picture perfect ambushes. It's a lot more about turning a semi-succesful ambush into a well timed charge. At that point the slowdown puts quite lot of emphasis on marine reaction time.
One thing I can see being problematic in the future is how dependand the skulking experience is on the marines you're facing. Both the rifle knockback and slowdown are something skulk has very little saying when the marine plays his cards right. Even NS1 had some skulk moments where you felt you were too reliant on the opposing marine performance no matter how good your own skulk play was. So far NS2 seems to take that issue even further by giving marines even more possibilities to abuse the distance and to avoid any aerial attacks.
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If we somehow can <b>ignore the bhop involved</b> and <b>talk about the rest of the stuff seen here</b>:
<center><object width="450" height="356"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/QWj2mc9u5vc"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/QWj2mc9u5vc" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="450" height="356"></embed></object></center>
Lots of awesome skulk stuff requires you to risk taking a couple of bullets (against top tier marines even more so). A good player can often judge whether there is enough HP to survive the bullets. Meanwhile with slowdown there's much more emphasis on the single first bullet landing, which is both a lot more unpredictable and difficult to estimate and also more limiting to the general options of getting exposed to gunfire.
In the video clip Mu trades quite a lot of HP for the access to the weird smelting cranes, which then leads into interesting situation that Mu capitalizes with an immensely important frag. With slowdown changing position like that and the dynamics involved would be absolute no-go. Instead of "Do I have the HP?" or "Is it worth the HP loss?" it becomes a lot more of "Can't" or "I just hope the marine doesn't turn around" even with full HP.
Unless someone with better understanding of the mechanic can point out some actual positive depth influences with the slowdown I'd rather not have it in the game. I obviously look this from a viewpoint where skulk is probably my all time favourite FPS gaming experience, but at least from that viewpoint there's nothing inviting in the feature. For NS1 skulk it seems just less options and more blind gambling on marine reacting slow enough to not land a single bullet.
I vote remove Slow on hit, Knock back with rifle butt is Awesome though and should stay!
i was all for slowing down marines once they get hit, to prevent strafe jump spam and to give more value to rifle knock back (which just
got implemented aswell)
as i am understanding it right now when reading your posts, is that the gameplay feels quite lame for alien side but
i dont hear so much noise from marine side. i would offer the devs to remove slow on hit for aliens, maybe only
mini guns can slow?, and keep the slow for marines. once a marine is slowed, they either have the fire power
(shotgun, minigun) to win close combat or the rifle knockback to clear a situation, which both require skill / aim.
would be worth trying out in 181
i was all for slowing down marines once they get hit, to prevent strafe jump spam and to give more value to rifle knock back (which just
got implemented aswell)
as i am understanding it right now when reading your posts, is that the gameplay feels quite lame for alien side but
i dont hear so much noise from marine side. i would offer the devs to remove slow on hit for aliens, maybe only
mini guns can slow?, and keep the slow for marines. once a marine is slowed, they either have the fire power
(shotgun, minigun) to win close combat or the rifle knockback to clear a situation, which both require skill / aim.
would be worth trying out in 181<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's just as bad for marines. It feels like horrible unrewarding "who saw who" first gameplay. Skulk leaps and marines have about a second to react and then either they land the shotgun hit or they're dead.
It's exactly what I hate about every cod game ever.
I'd think the upgade system (Frenzy, Swarm, Carapace, Regen, etc.) could be used as a means of specialization if they really wanted to force the Skulk into a specific role.
That way players can essentially choose their "build".
<!--quoteo(post=1860479:date=Jul 13 2011, 07:05 PM:name=TrueVeritas)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TrueVeritas @ Jul 13 2011, 07:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1860479"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's just as bad for marines. It feels like horrible unrewarding "who saw who" first gameplay. Skulk leaps and marines have about a second to react and then either they land the shotgun hit or they're dead.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1860321:date=Jul 13 2011, 06:50 AM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bacillus @ Jul 13 2011, 06:50 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1860321"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In the video clip Mu trades quite a lot of HP for the access to the weird smelting cranes, which then leads into interesting situation that Mu capitalizes with an immensely important frag. With slowdown changing position like that and the dynamics involved would be absolute no-go. Instead of "Do I have the HP?" or "Is it worth the HP loss?" it becomes a lot more of "Can't" or "I just hope the marine doesn't turn around" even with full HP.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
^ These! In it's current implementation, slowdown makes Skulk combat even more binary. It's harder to improve your game when you've essentially got ONE action per life to decide the result of combat.
That way players can essentially choose their "build".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think it necessarily goes that far, not at least with every upgrade. In NS1 maybe cloak and silence somewhat ended up dictating their own way on how skulk engages, but for the rest of it it's more of variating the same swiss army knife approach of skulk.
No matter if you nearly double the HP of the skulk, it doesn't turn into a rusher for example. It still needs to use architecture, skulkpack tactics, stealth and momentarily explosive speed to close the distance in most cases.
I do feel that skulks shouldn't get slowed in mid-air though, nor should they be slowed when leaping away.
I do feel that skulks shouldn't get slowed in mid-air though, nor should they be slowed when leaping away.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I know the feeling, after you get over the initial shock it gets better whatever it is.
However as game is this unoptimized the reflexes and accuracy is bound to be much much faster not to mention hitboxes (hopefully) will be accurate that the game cannot handle any kind of slowdown because it will be too great.
You probably have not played lerk yet have you? Bad and slow control + slowdown is a pain even though lerk has worst almost non-existant hitboxes.
In my personal opinion, I do not see why this needed to be added as a skilled player has no real problems shooting at a skulk. This just makes it easier and faster to kill them, along with the new knock back I think it may be a bit too much added bonus to marines. As I said, I do not think a slow was really required, it just seems to give marines more of an unneeded upper hand.
I cannot say I hate it, just that its not needed in the game at this current time.. Maybe when we have full access to the other chambers and abilities, but at this current moment it does seem to be a little unfair.
Finally, I did play NS1, for a very very long time too, but I was never any good at it, and I play NS 2 as well, and I'm still no good at it - others may say otherwise about my skills, but thats just it, I leave the judgment of my gaming skills up to others, not myself.
Secondly I think its absolutely absurd that I have to have played long and be good in order to have an opinion that people will take seriously. Just because *you* are good at the game, doesn't make your opinion better or more right than mine, its a complete non sequitur. In fact I could easily argue how you being better than me, and having played longer, serves to taint the game's development if your opinions are listened to. "How do you figure?" you might ask. Well, you have an agenda to maintain your play style and the factors of the game that contribute to your skills (essentially how the game feels and works and responds to you, as you play and learn, is part of what makes you better).
Suppose those things hold the game back from a potential innovation of genius proportions, or maybe just some...The point is, you have no right or badge by being a good player, over other people's opinions - you are of course free to disagree, I won't stop you from that - Your opinion however, given the context of game skill, carries the same weight as mine and I will consider it as such.
No matter if you nearly double the HP of the skulk, it doesn't turn into a rusher for example. It still needs to use architecture, skulkpack tactics, stealth and momentarily explosive speed to close the distance in most cases.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I wasn't implying that it would. Players would obviously need to change their playstyle to fit that role, but certain abilities can be made to cater to those roles, to make performing the functions of those roles considerably easier than without them.
Also unsure what the intention of the NS1 mention was about.
Instead of Slow-on-hit how about the Screen shakes whenever you get hit (Bullet and Bite). That way people can respond to being shot quicker.
Instead of Slow-on-hit how about the Screen shakes whenever you get hit (Bullet and Bite). That way people can respond to being shot quicker.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There needs to be a "splat" hit sound like in NS1, as well as some blood on screen to clearly indicate to the player he/she is taking damage.
For a quick fix, increase the damage indicator:
In GUIDamageIndicators.lua, line 14:
GUIDamageIndicators.kIndicatorSize = 160