Can one view the NS1 map file, top down view and make it a texture via Photoshop to align it on a file in Spark and use it as blueprint? Dunno if it would more work or help.
<!--quoteo(post=1868805:date=Aug 13 2011, 08:55 PM:name=Price)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Price @ Aug 13 2011, 08:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1868805"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->textures are missing, i don't know why, but they are not needed to see the layout ;-)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You're missing ns.wad/ns_bast.wad (the texture files). The textures you see are included in the bsp.
Also, I wanted to die when I saw that "not entirely gone" thing.
fsfodukJoin Date: 2004-04-09Member: 27810Members, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Subnautica Playtester, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
The spark map editor does have the ability to open vmf files. It just takes a bit of effort converting a ns1 map to vmf and you still left with all the back faces of the brushs when you import into the spark editor. You just export to .map with that bsp viewer, then open it in old 3.4 hammer and save it as a .rmf then open it in the latest Hammer and save it as vmf. The spark editor tends to crash if you import a the whole map at once so you kinda have to delete a large chunk of the map before you exporting to vmf and keep repeatedly exporting and copy pasting the parts together in the spark editor.
I think that instead of trying to import those maps to NS2, the best thing to do is to remake them from scratch like others said.
First, there would be no compatibility problems or headaches due to something imported wrong, then some data have still to be modified (length or size of the corridors, presence of elevators/ladders, maybe addition of a tech point...) to work with NS2's style map, making them fitting the experience of NS2.
Then, the aim is not to play NS1 again, but to play NS2 in a familiar environment. That's why whatever map that the community will adapt to NS2 should have modifications.
Sure, it's a long work. I think before being wild, we should find the map(s) that will be easier to adapt to NS2 playstyle. A map with large corridors, big recognisable rooms and clear paths should be the first map to remake. At a first glance, I would say that all of the following old NS1 2.0 maps (I stopped playing after 3.0 so don't know the others) could be adapted in NS2 (regarding time travelling between points and paths), so the best would be to choose first the one that contains the less issues.
<i>I'm sorry for the quality of few images, I just made a quick search on G**gle, and haven't found nice overview for each of those maps. The maps are displayed in the alphabetical order.</i>
Anyway, the main issues are : - water (don't know if water is implemented yet, haven't found it on the map editor) - ladders (found the entity in the editor, even if not working yet) / elevators (not implemented yet) - weldable paths (turn them into doors?) - sometimes only one primary route to a hive (to Ventilation, middle hive, on ns_origin by example)
So for me, to facilitate the transition NS1-NS2 without too much changing on the map, the first NS1 map to remake would be <b>ns_eclipse </b>or <b>ns_veil</b> (note that their authors are the same for those two maps ^^). However, there is still a need for a fifth tech point in both of them (nanogrid on veil and somewhere on eclipse).
IMO hera, eclipse, tanith, bast and nancy would be good NS2 maps.
I'm not a mapper, but I would use the above methode to copy the skeleton into spark, overtrace it with sparks drawing"things". Delete the ns1 map from spark, load the map in NS1 and start building.
The maps don't even need to be a close copy of the NS1 map. Look how 2fort changed from TFC to TF2, it's almost completely different, only some basic recognizable tactics and paths are passed on. On the other hand: cs_assault hasen't changed alot from cs to cssource. They just improved upon the original map.
i had a go on exporting old maps to the spark editor. it was frustrating.
first i opended the bsp viewer and saved the bsp to map. then i loaded the map in hammer 3.5, because its was crashing everytime when i used the source editor directly. there was the message that hundrets of solids havent been loaded and then that "there are too many visible objects". nevertheless i managed to get hera into the editor without crashing (eclipse/bast/nothing/caged let the editor crush everytime). in hera some crazy brushes appeared, which were larger then the grid itself. i deleted all the corrupted brushes, so the map itself was still there. even though the crazy brushes were deleted my editor was waaaay too slow and i have a quiet good rig. good enough for a ns1 map. there were parts of the map that werent shown in the editor. i had to select the air on the empty grid to see those parts as they were selected.
so i got most of hera to hammer 3.5 and after reloading it, it still said that 5 brushes werent loaded. and 5 new corrupted brushed appeared on the grid. so i deleted them and reloaded the map till i got no error message after loading. it was some kind of success :)
i loaded my hera rmf and map file to the source editor and it was loaded without any errors and i was quiet content with myself and my hopes were high.
i saved to vmf and loaded it to the spark editor but nothing happened, but a crash. it crashes everytime i load it.
i made a test on basic exporting. creating some brushes and load it into spark. it works perfectly.
i think the bsp viewer is the issue here. we may can import original map files.
bump!! this thread is relevant to my interists... i think its an awesome idea and making a map takes some time so if you are willed and free start now the water and ladder problem will be surely fixed before you are finished ;-) and make it from scratch, everything else will just be crappy and dirty and ruin perfomance maybe. i think i speak in the name of the whole old ns1 community if i say i would love to see the classics in a new "sparkling" costume ;-)
<!--quoteo(post=1871129:date=Aug 25 2011, 05:04 PM:name=Trainee.ger)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Trainee.ger @ Aug 25 2011, 05:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1871129"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i had a go on exporting old maps to the spark editor. it was frustrating.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Do not try. You've seen that it needs much more work than beginning from scratch with the old NS1 map as an example.
The first step would be to rebuild the map, just with the geometry of the rooms (out the textures and any prop/entity/light/etc.). Next step to place gameplay elements (power nodes, resource nodes, tech points and AS/MS entities). Then to add stairs, fences, a placeholder texture for walls, etc... (anything that would make the map playable for tests)
I think that once the map have been internally tested as OK as an NS2 map, we should be able to redesign it room after room to make it feel like the NS1 map =)
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->now the water and ladder problem will be surely fixed before you are finished ;-)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> For the ladders, definitely, but I don't know for the water. Also, I don't know if anyone has already begun some work from scratch (if so, he/she should say it to get some help from the community for advices or feedbacks - or just to avoid that two people to the same work simultaneously without knowing each other's work). As I said, the easier map to begin with should be ns_eclipse or ns_veil.
<!--quoteo(post=1871206:date=Aug 25 2011, 04:16 PM:name=Candide)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Candide @ Aug 25 2011, 04:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1871206"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Do not try. You've seen that it needs much more work than beginning from scratch with the old NS1 map as an example.
The first step would be to rebuild the map, just with the geometry of the rooms (out the textures and any prop/entity/light/etc.).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I am not sure if you are mapping yourself, doesnt sound like it. The interesting thing with having the old ns1 maps is, that you dont have to spend sooo much wasted time on dimensions. you work with hundrets of screenshots just to be able to rebuild a few rooms and at some point you just give up.
When you have the original RMF or MAP file from the Mapper of the Map, which will be in some cases UWE itself and in other cases mappers of the Community, you are able to convert it properly to VMF with the Source Editor and from that point it is possible to convert it into the Spark Editor.
It truly works, i tested it with old maps of mine.
The next step would be to create many layers to be able to move in the editor properly. Every brush exists now in 6 faces, which are in most cases 5 faces too much. i could barely navigate in the editor with the old map file loaded. There were just way too many faces. So with the help of layers you are able to delete all unwanted face. I would work the other way around. Hide the faces in layers that are needed and delete the rest. you save so much time.
When you reach this point, the real work begins :)
You have the map itself, just rebuild around it.
As i said, we would need the original RMF file for that, because we have to delete all entitys before we can export the VMF file into the Spark Editor.
So if uwe or those mappers wont provide some maps to those mappers who would love to recreate or reanimate our old goodies, there wont be rebuilds. its way too frustrating to guess the dimensions.
I played a bit with bsp decompilers but never manage anything significant, some of the maps loads in Hammer 3.5 (with ugly geometry) but not in the version 4.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I am not sure if you are mapping yourself, doesnt sound like it. [...]<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm not good at it, but I tried a little to see what it means. Here is a very simplified Marine Start from ns_veil recreated from scratch at a really early version. Of course, no texture and no detail at all yet. Took me about an hour with pictures and videos found on the web.
Sure, dimensions have to be guessed. But as you should see it as a new map, that map can change a little too (for example there is a power node behind that middle "pillar"). And those dimensions can still be changed later: the editor is very nice.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->you work with hundrets of screenshots just to be able to rebuild a few rooms and at some point you just give up.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Of course it's a hard work. But it's a work for NS fanatics =). If you aren't, it's too big.
That said, if you or someone can use the old maps to build the new ones much faster, of course he/she should use it if it works.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I would kill a man to see ns_nothing remade.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Good luck with that. I don't think UWE has said that they will put in button triggers and elevators for sure, and if they dont, those elevators would have to have some huge stairs replacing them, not to mention viaduct hive, which has some large ladders, which arent in yet, but should be in eventually. There was a revised version without the huge drops in the map, thats a possibility. But if ns2 has some of the same issues that NS1 had, ns_nothing would not be an ideal choice simply because onos's were at a huge disadvantage due to those elevators, it wasnt a well balanced map... still a pretty fun map tho....
ns_veil and ns_eclipse are the more likely candidates for remakes.
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
There were ladders, but they were bugged and as such disabled. NS2 will eventually get back it's ladders, let's hope they make em Onos proof this time around :P
Edit: Nostalgia love aside, a slight off-topic, I'm working out a layout for my own project I'll be attempting, though the layout has ended up fairly symmetrical, though I've attempted to at least make it as neutral as possible to either side.
My main question is this: Do you think a nearly perfect symmetrical map can play alright in this game? I've seen plenty of customs back on NS that did just this but I'm just grabbing for a few opinions, mostly.
Also, what's so difficult about adding water in the short term anyways?
Edit: Nostalgia love aside, a slight off-topic, I'm working out a layout for my own project I'll be attempting, though the layout has ended up fairly symmetrical, though I've attempted to at least make it as neutral as possible to either side.
My main question is this: Do you think a nearly perfect symmetrical map can play alright in this game? I've seen plenty of customs back on NS that did just this but I'm just grabbing for a few opinions, mostly.
Also, what's so difficult about adding water in the short term anyways?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Symmetrical maps will mostly lose you favor with relaxed players and mappers, as its rightly seen as a bit of a cop-out. Obviously its great for balance and hardcore folks
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1874041:date=Sep 10 2011, 12:26 PM:name=Kurrine)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kurrine @ Sep 10 2011, 12:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1874041"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also, what's so difficult about adding water in the short term anyways?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Making it look believable in a fully dynamically lit engine
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1875464:date=Sep 19 2011, 02:07 AM:name=fmpone)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fmpone @ Sep 19 2011, 02:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1875464"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->very interesting...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I wonder... This seems like a post with some hidden message...
<!--quoteo(post=1875549:date=Sep 19 2011, 11:41 AM:name=Kouji_San)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kouji_San @ Sep 19 2011, 11:41 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1875549"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I wonder... This seems like a post with some hidden message...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Someones a little late to the party, gj.
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1875552:date=Sep 19 2011, 03:45 PM:name=vizionz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (vizionz @ Sep 19 2011, 03:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1875552"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Someones a little late to the party, gj.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Or yar joke'O meter ain't working properly ;)
Comments
You're missing ns.wad/ns_bast.wad (the texture files). The textures you see are included in the bsp.
Also, I wanted to die when I saw that "not entirely gone" thing.
The spark editor tends to crash if you import a the whole map at once so you kinda have to delete a large chunk of the map before you exporting to vmf and keep repeatedly exporting and copy pasting the parts together in the spark editor.
First, there would be no compatibility problems or headaches due to something imported wrong, then some data have still to be modified (length or size of the corridors, presence of elevators/ladders, maybe addition of a tech point...) to work with NS2's style map, making them fitting the experience of NS2.
Then, the aim is not to play NS1 again, but to play NS2 in a familiar environment. That's why whatever map that the community will adapt to NS2 should have modifications.
Sure, it's a long work. I think before being wild, we should find the map(s) that will be easier to adapt to NS2 playstyle. A map with large corridors, big recognisable rooms and clear paths should be the first map to remake. At a first glance, I would say that all of the following old NS1 2.0 maps (I stopped playing after 3.0 so don't know the others) could be adapted in NS2 (regarding time travelling between points and paths), so the best would be to choose first the one that contains the less issues.
<i>I'm sorry for the quality of few images, I just made a quick search on G**gle, and haven't found nice overview for each of those maps. The maps are displayed in the alphabetical order.</i>
<a href="http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/2715/nsbast.gif" target="_blank">ns_bast</a>
<a href="http://img806.imageshack.us/img806/5619/nscaged.jpg" target="_blank">ns_caged</a>
<a href="http://img847.imageshack.us/img847/3850/nseclipse.jpg" target="_blank">ns_eclipse</a>
<a href="http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/5066/nshera.jpg" target="_blank">ns_hera</a>
<a href="http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/3163/20421107.jpg" target="_blank">ns_lost</a>
<a href="http://img845.imageshack.us/img845/9708/nsmineshaft0001.jpg" target="_blank">ns_mineshaft</a>
<a href="http://img687.imageshack.us/img687/1191/nsnothing.jpg" target="_blank">ns_nothing</a>
<a href="http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/8017/nsorigin.jpg" target="_blank">ns_origin</a>
<a href="http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/2778/nstanith0000t.jpg" target="_blank">ns_tanith</a>
<a href="http://img692.imageshack.us/img692/167/nsveil.jpg" target="_blank">ns_veil</a>
Anyway, the main issues are :
- water (don't know if water is implemented yet, haven't found it on the map editor)
- ladders (found the entity in the editor, even if not working yet) / elevators (not implemented yet)
- weldable paths (turn them into doors?)
- sometimes only one primary route to a hive (to Ventilation, middle hive, on ns_origin by example)
So for me, to facilitate the transition NS1-NS2 without too much changing on the map, the first NS1 map to remake would be <b>ns_eclipse </b>or <b>ns_veil</b> (note that their authors are the same for those two maps ^^). However, there is still a need for a fifth tech point in both of them (nanogrid on veil and somewhere on eclipse).
Do you agree? Do you have other remarks?
I'm not a mapper, but I would use the above methode to copy the skeleton into spark, overtrace it with sparks drawing"things". Delete the ns1 map from spark, load the map in NS1 and start building.
The maps don't even need to be a close copy of the NS1 map. Look how 2fort changed from TFC to TF2, it's almost completely different, only some basic recognizable tactics and paths are passed on. On the other hand: cs_assault hasen't changed alot from cs to cssource. They just improved upon the original map.
first i opended the bsp viewer and saved the bsp to map. then i loaded the map in hammer 3.5, because its was crashing everytime when i used the source editor directly. there was the message that hundrets of solids havent been loaded and then that "there are too many visible objects". nevertheless i managed to get hera into the editor without crashing (eclipse/bast/nothing/caged let the editor crush everytime). in hera some crazy brushes appeared, which were larger then the grid itself. i deleted all the corrupted brushes, so the map itself was still there. even though the crazy brushes were deleted my editor was waaaay too slow and i have a quiet good rig. good enough for a ns1 map. there were parts of the map that werent shown in the editor. i had to select the air on the empty grid to see those parts as they were selected.
so i got most of hera to hammer 3.5 and after reloading it, it still said that 5 brushes werent loaded. and 5 new corrupted brushed appeared on the grid. so i deleted them and reloaded the map till i got no error message after loading. it was some kind of success :)
i loaded my hera rmf and map file to the source editor and it was loaded without any errors and i was quiet content with myself and my hopes were high.
i saved to vmf and loaded it to the spark editor but nothing happened, but a crash.
it crashes everytime i load it.
i made a test on basic exporting. creating some brushes and load it into spark. it works perfectly.
i think the bsp viewer is the issue here. we may can import original map files.
ill do a test on that now
i couldnt load it to the editor until i deleted all entitys!
Sooooooooooo Charlie caan we Pleeeaaazzzssee get one or two old rmf´s/map´s?? =)
<a href="http://www.ausns2.com/crap/minimaps/ns_metal.png" target="_blank">http://www.ausns2.com/crap/minimaps/ns_metal.png</a>
Do not try. You've seen that it needs much more work than beginning from scratch with the old NS1 map as an example.
The first step would be to rebuild the map, just with the geometry of the rooms (out the textures and any prop/entity/light/etc.).
Next step to place gameplay elements (power nodes, resource nodes, tech points and AS/MS entities).
Then to add stairs, fences, a placeholder texture for walls, etc... (anything that would make the map playable for tests)
I think that once the map have been internally tested as OK as an NS2 map, we should be able to redesign it room after room to make it feel like the NS1 map =)
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->now the water and ladder problem will be surely fixed before you are finished ;-)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
For the ladders, definitely, but I don't know for the water. Also, I don't know if anyone has already begun some work from scratch (if so, he/she should say it to get some help from the community for advices or feedbacks - or just to avoid that two people to the same work simultaneously without knowing each other's work). As I said, the easier map to begin with should be ns_eclipse or ns_veil.
The first step would be to rebuild the map, just with the geometry of the rooms (out the textures and any prop/entity/light/etc.).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I am not sure if you are mapping yourself, doesnt sound like it. The interesting thing with having the old ns1 maps is, that you dont have to spend sooo much wasted time on dimensions. you work with hundrets of screenshots just to be able to rebuild a few rooms and at some point you just give up.
When you have the original RMF or MAP file from the Mapper of the Map, which will be in some cases UWE itself and in other cases mappers of the Community, you are able to convert it properly to VMF with the Source Editor and from that point it is possible to convert it into the Spark Editor.
It truly works, i tested it with old maps of mine.
The next step would be to create many layers to be able to move in the editor properly. Every brush exists now in 6 faces, which are in most cases 5 faces too much. i could barely navigate in the editor with the old map file loaded. There were just way too many faces. So with the help of layers you are able to delete all unwanted face.
I would work the other way around. Hide the faces in layers that are needed and delete the rest. you save so much time.
When you reach this point, the real work begins :)
You have the map itself, just rebuild around it.
As i said, we would need the original RMF file for that, because we have to delete all entitys before we can export the VMF file into the Spark Editor.
So if uwe or those mappers wont provide some maps to those mappers who would love to recreate or reanimate our old goodies, there wont be rebuilds. its way too frustrating to guess the dimensions.
I dont have time for such a project anyways
Trainee
I'm not good at it, but I tried a little to see what it means. Here is a very simplified Marine Start from ns_veil recreated from scratch at a really early version. Of course, no texture and no detail at all yet. Took me about an hour with pictures and videos found on the web.
<img src="http://img840.imageshack.us/img840/2725/veilms.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Sure, dimensions have to be guessed. But as you should see it as a new map, that map can change a little too (for example there is a power node behind that middle "pillar"). And those dimensions can still be changed later: the editor is very nice.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->you work with hundrets of screenshots just to be able to rebuild a few rooms and at some point you just give up.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Of course it's a hard work. But it's a work for NS fanatics =). If you aren't, it's too big.
That said, if you or someone can use the old maps to build the new ones much faster, of course he/she should use it if it works.
Good luck with that. I don't think UWE has said that they will put in button triggers and elevators for sure, and if they dont, those elevators would have to have some huge stairs replacing them, not to mention viaduct hive, which has some large ladders, which arent in yet, but should be in eventually. There was a revised version without the huge drops in the map, thats a possibility. But if ns2 has some of the same issues that NS1 had, ns_nothing would not be an ideal choice simply because onos's were at a huge disadvantage due to those elevators, it wasnt a well balanced map... still a pretty fun map tho....
ns_veil and ns_eclipse are the more likely candidates for remakes.
Edit: Nostalgia love aside, a slight off-topic, I'm working out a layout for my own project I'll be attempting, though the layout has ended up fairly symmetrical, though I've attempted to at least make it as neutral as possible to either side.
My main question is this:
Do you think a nearly perfect symmetrical map can play alright in this game? I've seen plenty of customs back on NS that did just this but I'm just grabbing for a few opinions, mostly.
Also, what's so difficult about adding water in the short term anyways?
Edit: Nostalgia love aside, a slight off-topic, I'm working out a layout for my own project I'll be attempting, though the layout has ended up fairly symmetrical, though I've attempted to at least make it as neutral as possible to either side.
My main question is this:
Do you think a nearly perfect symmetrical map can play alright in this game? I've seen plenty of customs back on NS that did just this but I'm just grabbing for a few opinions, mostly.
Also, what's so difficult about adding water in the short term anyways?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Symmetrical maps will mostly lose you favor with relaxed players and mappers, as its rightly seen as a bit of a cop-out. Obviously its great for balance and hardcore folks
Making it look believable in a fully dynamically lit engine
very interesting...
I wonder... This seems like a post with some hidden message...
Someones a little late to the party, gj.
Or yar joke'O meter ain't working properly ;)