From what I understood from the earlier discussions about wall hopping the acceleration would only happen if you managed to alternate between wall->2nd wall, floor->wall or wall->floor for each jump, which if animated properly would look realistic(for an alien...) and if aircontroll is good enough would not be too hard for new players to do.
The skill ceiling probably won't be as high as the original BH, but it's a good start and definitely better than mindless walking.
I'm not completely sure whether I understand which parts of the bhop this one is supposed to fix apart from the flammatory name though. The present version seems to carry over a lot of similarities to bhop.
twilitebluebug stalkerJoin Date: 2003-02-04Member: 13116Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
I would prefer if walljump does not increase the Skulk's movement speed cap. The ability to change direction & accelerate in opposite directions quickly, combined with Leap will be awesome.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How would wall hopping be best used in rooms that are wide like hives where you only have access to one wall face?
or
Bigger hallways like in the awesome veil remake when jumping from wall-floor-wall causes you more to go side to side then forward?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The objective of wall hopping is to give the skulk more combat maneuvers, no? (that's what I pictured it to be at any rate) Sideways movement with directional change whenever it hits a surface will make it harder to hit. It won't give it increased speed along a hallway, but will give it increased and more sporadic movement when there are hostiles nearby. The challenge will be to stay on the right side of the line for hard to hit and actually able to control your own movements as opposed to hard to hit and randomly bouncing off walls with no aim for where you're going.
If you are in an area with only one wall for acceleration then the control over the "bounces" must be high enough so that you can go from wall->floor->same wall->same floor but still low enough so that it doesn't start looking too awkward. The definition of awkward would be up to the individual player I suppose, but for me 180* turns with increase to movement would end up looking wrong.
I personally would also like to see the new movement system to be able to be used as a method for faster travel around the map that is fluid. What i liked about BH is it was much like Bowser in Mario Cart. Slow to start but once maintained very fast. If you messed up you lost speed gain.
SewlekThe programmer previously known as SchimmelJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16247Members, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, Subnautica Developer
<a href="http://www.mediafire.com/?b238olm485ii03y" target="_blank">Prototyping Mod 5.6</a>
You can try wall hopping, I would appreciate feedback. I fixed the velocity display (shows now only XZ values), it was little bit confusing in visionz videos. i would especially welcome detailed and technical feedback.
<!--quoteo(post=1876385:date=Sep 22 2011, 10:18 PM:name=TrC)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TrC @ Sep 22 2011, 10:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1876385"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Step into correct direction, I dig the speed skulk feels more of a predator than a scavenger.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What he said.
Although bunnyhopping just seems like the obvious solution, if it's not broke don't fix it.
I'm not completely sure whether I understand which parts of the bhop this one is supposed to fix apart from the flammatory name though. The present version seems to carry over a lot of similarities to bhop.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
visionz mentioned in a post halfway down the first page that you will slow down after a couple of jumps, just that build hadn't got it coded in.
Something like a triple jumper's hop skip jump would be cool for closing gaps, increasing length/speed on each hop with a slowdown after the third maybe, this would help to make it situational rather than just the standard way of moving quickly, plus the slowdown wouldn't be as bad as it seems since marines don't have knockback in NS2 like they do in NS1 to put distance between themselves and the skulks after bites.
<!--quoteo(post=1876549:date=Sep 23 2011, 05:28 PM:name=Laggasaurus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Laggasaurus @ Sep 23 2011, 05:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1876549"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->visionz mentioned in a post halfway down the first page that you will slow down after a couple of jumps, just that build hadn't got it coded in.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeah. I guess the question I'm trying to ask is what kind of design ideals does the wallhop have? There probably has been some talk of "We want this to... / We don't want this to..." . Right now I could see the wallhop developing into quite a few directions depending on what was or wasn't needed or wanted.
<!--quoteo(post=1876303:date=Sep 22 2011, 11:20 AM:name=Cygone)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cygone @ Sep 22 2011, 11:20 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1876303"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And IMHO it really should NOT be in the game, its beyond unrealistic, and was originally a bug in HL1.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This, not going to argue with those opposed to it. But I like more realism in games honestly :P, it allows a user to relate more and draw them in IMO.
<!--quoteo(post=1876551:date=Sep 23 2011, 10:52 AM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bacillus @ Sep 23 2011, 10:52 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1876551"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yeah. I guess the question I'm trying to ask is what kind of design ideals does the wallhop have? There probably has been some talk of "We want this to... / We don't want this to..." . Right now I could see the wallhop developing into quite a few directions depending on what was or wasn't needed or wanted.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would love to hear this as well. Are the devs looks for a short burst in speed/maneuverability to help skulks in limited close quarter situations (which if you are already close why move? Just bite) or are they looking to replace bunny hop as skill based movement that could be utilized by the player as they saw fit (i.e. dodging, travel, escape)?
*edit - realism argument needs to go away. It is a Sci-Fi game with endless possibilities. Unless i missed that class in college Aliens 101 that covered the skulk and methods of movement.
<!--quoteo(post=1876565:date=Sep 23 2011, 01:31 PM:name=RisingSun)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RisingSun @ Sep 23 2011, 01:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1876565"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->*edit - realism argument needs to go away. It is a Sci-Fi game with endless possibilities. Unless i missed that class in college Aliens 101 that covered the skulk and methods of movement.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A game element is fine, a bug is NOT, a bug that allows certain players to move faster changes game balance. And yes I can bunnyhop in CS all day long, just because I can do it, does not mean that I agree with the element in a game as a bug<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Bug is a matter of opinion. HL1 is not the only game where people have discovered an ability and masses have run into condemning without having the slightest clue of what they are talking about (SSBM and wave dashing is one of the finest examples). When it comes to judging game mechanics and their value to depth (which is not only aspect), experts are the best option. This does not involve only NS1, it involves chess, starcraft, sports etc. And there is massive consensus of bhop adding a skill to NS1 among the competitive players. Arguing against expert consensus is <a href="http://www.overcomingbias.com/2011/02/against-diy-academics.html" target="_blank">DIY climate science</a>.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->NS1, tho fun (hence I play NS2), was not even remotly close to CS and TF in terms of gameplay,<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> And did you play at the top of NS1 competitively? I've had this debate with Fana and franky before about CS vs NS1 vs Q3 vs SC1. NS1 has more versatility, it has completely asymmetrical sides (unlike TFC), it has more movement skills (marine, skulk, fade and lerk are all different), ability to aim in much more rapidly changing patterns (air-units), and RTS aspect. So <i>prima facie</i> NS1 has more options but when you get neck deep, more micro skills emerge that cannot be seen on surface. The problem is that because NS1 never had "Korea" or massive scene, a part of NS1 skills were never fully explored.
However the social aspect (especially commander-player relationship) of NS1 what makes it <i>fun</i> and challenging to play. You don't have that in any other game. Even in sports, coaches are not dropping "medpacks" for you. I think this unique aspect of NS1 made it so engaging. Imagine playing Starcraft where you are a grunt being commanded by Boxer, it definitely adds a whole new dimension to it. Also personally I enjoy melee-vs-ranged more than ranged-vs-ranged, and NS is definitely a pinnacle of that. Even if NS isn't the deepest FPS game, it comes very close.
Ultimately its hard to say which of the games had most depth since a) I haven't met NS1 champions who were also CS pros (there might be just haven't looked around) b) the difference between the size of NS1 scene and CS scene was just massive, its like foreign and Korean starcraft, you can't just compare them. COD etc. have more players than SC1 in Europe, but I dare to say that SC1 is way much harder than any of those.
However I think Starcraft BW is way beyond FPS or Fighter games, because I think RTS games are inherently more complex and demanding to master, not to say FPS games are easy. I also think NS1 could probably been refined to be much better (to compete with Starcraft), but I think this would be <i>extremely demanding</i> task. The state of NS1 right now in terms of balance and depth is a an achievement of quite some miracle. It has been like this for quite a many years and it still holds together (6vs6 is balanced). Only 200FPS Jetpack really made the demand for a new patch evident, however this a very controversial issue (given that it has been one of the most hotly debated issue in our scene).
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->if it was it would still be being played now as opposed to the 4500 CSS servers and howe ever many thousand or so CS1.6 servers which are still active (some are clearly empty tho). Yes NS1 got to CAL, but hell CS1.6 is STILL IN CPL!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dh402owua4o&feature=results_video&playnext=1&list=PL2F1BA5F4FD1D5129" target="_blank">Say what?</a> According to this logic Big Brother is the pinnacle of TV shows, Avatar is the pinnacle of movies et cetera. Just go tell a professional classical musician that popularity is a good indicator of depth. CS was first and it was easy to learn which were major reasons for its success, also Valve owned it. Maybe some gaming market expert can answer this question, but popularity is a bad measure of depth. In fact its quite reverse, you cannot attract 10 million players with a game that has complex skills and is too hard to learn. Most consumers of video games are like consumers of movies, they are in for a fun experience without having to practice for long periods of time to get into the game.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The 2 single biggest games of all time, CS and WoW, they are the epitome of thier genre, nothing has come close, i doubt anything will (other than possibly CS:GO and Titan). You might not care for that reasoning, but the 25million that bought CS, and the 50million that have bought WoW clearly do. Your opinion though valid, unfortuantly is not shared with the millions that will by these games.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Same thing that happened to NS1 is probably happening to SC1 albeit slowly and to lesser extent. To appeal to more general population, skills and depth need to be removed. I'm not saying this has to be bad, as more people can enjoy gaming, but as someone who enjoyed highly-demanding in terms of intelligence and skills, I'm not happy since there won't be a competitive scene of a game I'm interested in.
Sorry for the off topic though. On-topic: I think the wallhop mod is very good supplement but in my opinion it isn't a sufficient replacement for bhop.
As I progress myself in to the gaming industry through other methods, I am pushing to create a video game development team over the course of 5 years. I understand there is a massive void in the market where one spectrum wants hardcore skill games like cs/quake returned, while the other spectrum is crying for the game to be watered down and glorified by graphics.
I will do everything in my power with the money I obtain over the course of 5 years, to create a game that the hardcore skill pvp gamers have been wanting back since counter-strike / quake / unreal tournament days. Just playing every game now a days makes me sick with how much watering down and catering to massive waves of nex generation gamers who "hate losing". I want the days where the developers focus on gameplay and feel of the engine before graphics and actually take chances, risks and innovate new ideas that doesn't relate to the same old wow copy clones or call of duty fps syndrome.
One day, I don't care what it takes, but one day it will be done, this is where I want to be, in the gaming industry as a developer/producer and innovator.
<!--quoteo(post=1876878:date=Sep 25 2011, 02:10 PM:name=Jiriki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jiriki @ Sep 25 2011, 02:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1876878"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Bug is a matter of opinion. HL1 is not the only game where people have discovered an ability and masses have run into condemning without having the slightest clue of what they are talking about (SSBM and wave dashing is one of the finest examples). When it comes to judging game mechanics and their value to depth (which is not only aspect), experts are the best option. This does not involve only NS1, it involves chess, starcraft, sports etc. And there is massive consensus of bhop adding a skill to NS1 among the competitive players. Arguing against expert consensus is <a href="http://www.overcomingbias.com/2011/02/against-diy-academics.html" target="_blank">DIY climate science</a>.
And did you play at the top of NS1 competitively? I've had this debate with Fana and franky before about CS vs NS1 vs Q3 vs SC1. NS1 has more versatility, it has completely asymmetrical sides (unlike TFC), it has more movement skills (marine, skulk, fade and lerk are all different), ability to aim in much more rapidly changing patterns (air-units), and RTS aspect. So <i>prima facie</i> NS1 has more options but when you get neck deep, more micro skills emerge that cannot be seen on surface. The problem is that because NS1 never had "Korea" or massive scene, a part of NS1 skills were never fully explored.
However the social aspect (especially commander-player relationship) of NS1 what makes it <i>fun</i> and challenging to play. You don't have that in any other game. Even in sports, coaches are not dropping "medpacks" for you. I think this unique aspect of NS1 made it so engaging. Imagine playing Starcraft where you are a grunt being commanded by Boxer, it definitely adds a whole new dimension to it. Also personally I enjoy melee-vs-ranged more than ranged-vs-ranged, and NS is definitely a pinnacle of that. Even if NS isn't the deepest FPS game, it comes very close.
Ultimately its hard to say which of the games had most depth since a) I haven't met NS1 champions who were also CS pros (there might be just haven't looked around) b) the difference between the size of NS1 scene and CS scene was just massive, its like foreign and Korean starcraft, you can't just compare them. COD etc. have more players than SC1 in Europe, but I dare to say that SC1 is way much harder than any of those.
However I think Starcraft BW is way beyond FPS or Fighter games, because I think RTS games are inherently more complex and demanding to master, not to say FPS games are easy. I also think NS1 could probably been refined to be much better (to compete with Starcraft), but I think this would be <i>extremely demanding</i> task. The state of NS1 right now in terms of balance and depth is a an achievement of quite some miracle. It has been like this for quite a many years and it still holds together (6vs6 is balanced). Only 200FPS Jetpack really made the demand for a new patch evident, however this a very controversial issue (given that it has been one of the most hotly debated issue in our scene).
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dh402owua4o&feature=results_video&playnext=1&list=PL2F1BA5F4FD1D5129" target="_blank">Say what?</a> According to this logic Big Brother is the pinnacle of TV shows, Avatar is the pinnacle of movies et cetera. Just go tell a professional classical musician that popularity is a good indicator of depth. CS was first and it was easy to learn which were major reasons for its success, also Valve owned it. Maybe some gaming market expert can answer this question, but popularity is a bad measure of depth. In fact its quite reverse, you cannot attract 10 million players with a game that has complex skills and is too hard to learn. Most consumers of video games are like consumers of movies, they are in for a fun experience without having to practice for long periods of time to get into the game.
Same thing that happened to NS1 is probably happening to SC1 albeit slowly and to lesser extent. To appeal to more general population, skills and depth need to be removed. I'm not saying this has to be bad, as more people can enjoy gaming, but as someone who enjoyed highly-demanding in terms of intelligence and skills, I'm not happy since there won't be a competitive scene of a game I'm interested in.
Sorry for the off topic though. On-topic: I think the wallhop mod is very good supplement but in my opinion it isn't a sufficient replacement for bhop.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1876881:date=Sep 25 2011, 02:27 PM:name=Slithers)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Slithers @ Sep 25 2011, 02:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1876881"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As I progress myself in to the gaming industry through other methods, I am pushing to create a video game development team over the course of 5 years. I understand there is a massive void in the market where one spectrum wants hardcore skill games like cs/quake returned, while the other spectrum is crying for the game to be watered down and glorified by graphics.
I will do everything in my power with the money I obtain over the course of 5 years, to create a game that the hardcore skill pvp gamers have been wanting back since counter-strike / quake / unreal tournament days. Just playing every game now a days makes me sick with how much watering down and catering to massive waves of nex generation gamers who "hate losing". I want the days where the developers focus on gameplay and feel of the engine before graphics and actually take chances, risks and innovate new ideas that doesn't relate to the same old wow copy clones or call of duty fps syndrome.
One day, I don't care what it takes, but one day it will be done, this is where I want to be, in the gaming industry as a developer/producer and innovator.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I can't see NS2 being more popular than NS1 at it's hayday like SC2 being more popular than SC1 in its hayday by dumbing it down.
The reason why? There are lots of competitive FPS games out there, that market is pretty saturated. There are not lots of competitive RTS games out there by comparison. If NS1 still had the playerbase that CS does, like SC1 did before the old 'upgrade the engine and game stuff', then yeah, it's possible. Although 'dumbing down' NS2 will only make it unpopular with those that made NS1 such a success.
Edit:
I remember NS being steadily in the top 10 steam games played at one point. Now it's not on the list. Partly because of age and then because of the amount of games released on Steam. Now go look at the Steam top list, most of the more popular/played games are popular franchise FPS.
NS2 doesn't really have direct compitors though. What would you recommend for someone to play instead? TF2? CS:S? CoD? MW? Surely not. I still believe there is room for NS to flourish. As for the reason why NS1 died down, well let's be honest, it hasn't been updated in eons, runs on a very antiquated engine (and it shows in it's graphics\physics, or lack thereof), and hasn't gotten any PR-love for half a decade.
The games on the top of the steam-list are in no way compition for NS2. The question remains, will UWE be able to recover their costs on the niche-fanbase that it has. Well, that and get a proper running product (heres for B186).
I think Konata has a point. The fact that this game is a RTS and FPS doesnt put it in a different category but tries to steal a player base from BOTH fields. The game will go up against all the popular FPS while also competing slightly with RTS games.
In either case NS is more of a jack of all trades master of none in this instance. I dont believe people will play just because of the blending of both genres. NS1 was unique because both sides offered such different play styles and strategies. As Jiriki said "NS1 has more versatility, it has completely asymmetrical sides". We are losing this to "dumbing down" methods in an effort to make it easier to balance? The RTS mode shouldnt ever be as complex as Starcraft and the FPS side shouldnt have as many features as MW3. It just wouldnt work.
Each side whether it be FPS or RTS have been made easy enough for a novice player to jump in, the complexity comes not from the individual element but the blending of them.
I don't see the current gameplay-setup as final to be honest. Since the first alpha the devs have already done a rediculous amount of backtracking (every time in favour of the NS1-fanbase), so come 1.0 I'm expecting it to be pretty close to that winning formula of asymmetry. Schimmel seems to lead the way in this mostly, with the (bunny?)wall-hopping and now CC relocations to anywhere.
Again, the idea that NS2 taps into the same player-base as CoD\MW\CS seems silly. They're both shooters yes, but I don't see people trying to decide whether to buy NS2 or CoD, those worlds are just so far apart. If anything it's SC2 where NS2 has a lot of potential players, other than that, I suppose many people are in a bit of a limbo waiting for something decent to come along. I know I am, hence the question what alternative could be considered for NS1\NS2.
swalkSay hello to my little friend.Join Date: 2011-01-20Member: 78384Members, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1876985:date=Sep 26 2011, 03:22 PM:name=player)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (player @ Sep 26 2011, 03:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1876985"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Again, the idea that NS2 taps into the same player-base as CoD\MW\CS seems silly. They're both shooters yes, but I don't see people trying to decide whether to buy NS2 or CoD, those worlds are just so far apart. If anything it's SC2 where NS2 has a lot of potential players, other than that, I suppose many people are in a bit of a limbo waiting for something decent to come along. I know I am, hence the question what alternative could be considered for NS1\NS2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Not really that silly, I came from that player-base(CS/MW) and found(a friend showed me) NS2(before the Alpha), then I learned how NS1 played out. I also played games like Savage 1/2. And I like RTS blending FPS. CS/CoD/whatever can't compare with this. NS2 is becoming exactly what I've been searching for in a game.
When i think of walljumping, i think of a high speed burst of energy, leaping from a wall to any givien area or marines within reasonable distance (ie LEAP but off of a wall :o) the higher on the wall you are, the further and quicker you jump, not a cheap way to speed up a skulk with a "few" extra jumps after leaving the wall.
i think that ^^^^^^ above is the kind of thing people talk about realism for, its a reasonable assumption drawn from real life scenarios we know to be true, even though not all the things involved about it are (eg aliens) everything else about the game has a quite a large amount of realism about it, why should the movement /animation be any different?
you should really think about increasing the speed of jumping off a wall, having a 3-5sec cooldown for it, and using a different button to spacebar, i'd love to see this ingame as an ambush tactic, rather than a way to gain even more speed accross the map ala bunnyhop.
SewlekThe programmer previously known as SchimmelJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16247Members, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, Subnautica Developer
rushmonkey, what you wrote here might be the solution for wall jumping i was looking for. a shame that I did not have the idea to use the vertical velocity, when jumping off a wall, to manipulate your horizontal speed. thanks for posting this, could be basis for an intuitive implementation of wall jumping :D
<!--quoteo(post=1877019:date=Sep 26 2011, 01:40 PM:name=Schimmel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Schimmel @ Sep 26 2011, 01:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1877019"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->rushmonkey, what you wrote here might be the solution for wall jumping i was looking for. a shame that I did not have the idea to use the vertical velocity, when jumping off a wall, to manipulate your horizontal speed. thanks for posting this, could be basis for an intuitive implementation of wall jumping :D<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Let's see what you come up with! :D
Is there any decision on whether wallhop is the only thing aliens got at 1st hive or is there going to be leap or some other some alternatives?
The thing that slightly concerns me is that the wallhop itself has a pretty strong dependency on the surroundings and it mostly adds up to the areas where aliens already have some kind of possibilities to fight. Meanwhile any fight in more open ground seems extremely uninviting once the performance gets sorted out.
Open ground definitely should be marine favoured, but building up absolutes that aliens can't deal until second hive doesn't seem a good idea. Right now there's already a pretty heavy bias towards specific teams in terms of darkness, power nodes, DI and all that.
Comments
The skill ceiling probably won't be as high as the original BH, but it's a good start and definitely better than mindless walking.
or
Bigger hallways like in the awesome veil remake when jumping from wall-floor-wall causes you more to go side to side then forward?
I'm not completely sure whether I understand which parts of the bhop this one is supposed to fix apart from the flammatory name though. The present version seems to carry over a lot of similarities to bhop.
or
Bigger hallways like in the awesome veil remake when jumping from wall-floor-wall causes you more to go side to side then forward?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The objective of wall hopping is to give the skulk more combat maneuvers, no? (that's what I pictured it to be at any rate)
Sideways movement with directional change whenever it hits a surface will make it harder to hit.
It won't give it increased speed along a hallway, but will give it increased and more sporadic movement when there are hostiles nearby.
The challenge will be to stay on the right side of the line for hard to hit and actually able to control your own movements as opposed to hard to hit and randomly bouncing off walls with no aim for where you're going.
If you are in an area with only one wall for acceleration then the control over the "bounces" must be high enough so that you can go from wall->floor->same wall->same floor but still low enough so that it doesn't start looking too awkward.
The definition of awkward would be up to the individual player I suppose, but for me 180* turns with increase to movement would end up looking wrong.
You can try wall hopping, I would appreciate feedback. I fixed the velocity display (shows now only XZ values), it was little bit confusing in visionz videos.
i would especially welcome detailed and technical feedback.
What he said.
Although bunnyhopping just seems like the obvious solution, if it's not broke don't fix it.
I'm not completely sure whether I understand which parts of the bhop this one is supposed to fix apart from the flammatory name though. The present version seems to carry over a lot of similarities to bhop.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
visionz mentioned in a post halfway down the first page that you will slow down after a couple of jumps, just that build hadn't got it coded in.
Something like a triple jumper's hop skip jump would be cool for closing gaps, increasing length/speed on each hop with a slowdown after the third maybe, this would help to make it situational rather than just the standard way of moving quickly, plus the slowdown wouldn't be as bad as it seems since marines don't have knockback in NS2 like they do in NS1 to put distance between themselves and the skulks after bites.
Yeah. I guess the question I'm trying to ask is what kind of design ideals does the wallhop have? There probably has been some talk of "We want this to... / We don't want this to..." . Right now I could see the wallhop developing into quite a few directions depending on what was or wasn't needed or wanted.
This, not going to argue with those opposed to it. But I like more realism in games honestly :P, it allows a user to relate more and draw them in IMO.
I would love to hear this as well. Are the devs looks for a short burst in speed/maneuverability to help skulks in limited close quarter situations (which if you are already close why move? Just bite) or are they looking to replace bunny hop as skill based movement that could be utilized by the player as they saw fit (i.e. dodging, travel, escape)?
*edit - realism argument needs to go away. It is a Sci-Fi game with endless possibilities. Unless i missed that class in college Aliens 101 that covered the skulk and methods of movement.
It was in xenology 101 derp.
But my point has not changed :P.
Bug is a matter of opinion. HL1 is not the only game where people have discovered an ability and masses have run into condemning without having the slightest clue of what they are talking about (SSBM and wave dashing is one of the finest examples). When it comes to judging game mechanics and their value to depth (which is not only aspect), experts are the best option. This does not involve only NS1, it involves chess, starcraft, sports etc. And there is massive consensus of bhop adding a skill to NS1 among the competitive players. Arguing against expert consensus is <a href="http://www.overcomingbias.com/2011/02/against-diy-academics.html" target="_blank">DIY climate science</a>.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->NS1, tho fun (hence I play NS2), was not even remotly close to CS and TF in terms of gameplay,<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And did you play at the top of NS1 competitively? I've had this debate with Fana and franky before about CS vs NS1 vs Q3 vs SC1. NS1 has more versatility, it has completely asymmetrical sides (unlike TFC), it has more movement skills (marine, skulk, fade and lerk are all different), ability to aim in much more rapidly changing patterns (air-units), and RTS aspect. So <i>prima facie</i> NS1 has more options but when you get neck deep, more micro skills emerge that cannot be seen on surface. The problem is that because NS1 never had "Korea" or massive scene, a part of NS1 skills were never fully explored.
However the social aspect (especially commander-player relationship) of NS1 what makes it <i>fun</i> and challenging to play. You don't have that in any other game. Even in sports, coaches are not dropping "medpacks" for you. I think this unique aspect of NS1 made it so engaging. Imagine playing Starcraft where you are a grunt being commanded by Boxer, it definitely adds a whole new dimension to it. Also personally I enjoy melee-vs-ranged more than ranged-vs-ranged, and NS is definitely a pinnacle of that. Even if NS isn't the deepest FPS game, it comes very close.
Ultimately its hard to say which of the games had most depth since a) I haven't met NS1 champions who were also CS pros (there might be just haven't looked around) b) the difference between the size of NS1 scene and CS scene was just massive, its like foreign and Korean starcraft, you can't just compare them. COD etc. have more players than SC1 in Europe, but I dare to say that SC1 is way much harder than any of those.
However I think Starcraft BW is way beyond FPS or Fighter games, because I think RTS games are inherently more complex and demanding to master, not to say FPS games are easy. I also think NS1 could probably been refined to be much better (to compete with Starcraft), but I think this would be <i>extremely demanding</i> task. The state of NS1 right now in terms of balance and depth is a an achievement of quite some miracle. It has been like this for quite a many years and it still holds together (6vs6 is balanced). Only 200FPS Jetpack really made the demand for a new patch evident, however this a very controversial issue (given that it has been one of the most hotly debated issue in our scene).
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->if it was it would still be being played now as opposed to the 4500 CSS servers and howe ever many thousand or so CS1.6 servers which are still active (some are clearly empty tho). Yes NS1 got to CAL, but hell CS1.6 is STILL IN CPL!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dh402owua4o&feature=results_video&playnext=1&list=PL2F1BA5F4FD1D5129" target="_blank">Say what?</a> According to this logic Big Brother is the pinnacle of TV shows, Avatar is the pinnacle of movies et cetera. Just go tell a professional classical musician that popularity is a good indicator of depth. CS was first and it was easy to learn which were major reasons for its success, also Valve owned it. Maybe some gaming market expert can answer this question, but popularity is a bad measure of depth. In fact its quite reverse, you cannot attract 10 million players with a game that has complex skills and is too hard to learn. Most consumers of video games are like consumers of movies, they are in for a fun experience without having to practice for long periods of time to get into the game.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The 2 single biggest games of all time, CS and WoW, they are the epitome of thier genre, nothing has come close, i doubt anything will (other than possibly CS:GO and Titan). You might not care for that reasoning, but the 25million that bought CS, and the 50million that have bought WoW clearly do. Your opinion though valid, unfortuantly is not shared with the millions that will by these games.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Same thing that happened to NS1 is probably happening to SC1 albeit slowly and to lesser extent. To appeal to more general population, skills and depth need to be removed. I'm not saying this has to be bad, as more people can enjoy gaming, but as someone who enjoyed highly-demanding in terms of intelligence and skills, I'm not happy since there won't be a competitive scene of a game I'm interested in.
So I agree you with that many people like other games, mostly probably because they have families, RL stuff etc. and cannot devote to a game. Its exact the same reason classical music isn't as popular as pop music. It takes dedication to appreciate Chopin's études or Picasso's art, and usually only the professionals can really understand what makes them so great. The same goes for other sciences and their insights.
Sorry for the off topic though. On-topic: I think the wallhop mod is very good supplement but in my opinion it isn't a sufficient replacement for bhop.
I will do everything in my power with the money I obtain over the course of 5 years, to create a game that the hardcore skill pvp gamers have been wanting back since counter-strike / quake / unreal tournament days. Just playing every game now a days makes me sick with how much watering down and catering to massive waves of nex generation gamers who "hate losing". I want the days where the developers focus on gameplay and feel of the engine before graphics and actually take chances, risks and innovate new ideas that doesn't relate to the same old wow copy clones or call of duty fps syndrome.
One day, I don't care what it takes, but one day it will be done, this is where I want to be, in the gaming industry as a developer/producer and innovator.
And did you play at the top of NS1 competitively? I've had this debate with Fana and franky before about CS vs NS1 vs Q3 vs SC1. NS1 has more versatility, it has completely asymmetrical sides (unlike TFC), it has more movement skills (marine, skulk, fade and lerk are all different), ability to aim in much more rapidly changing patterns (air-units), and RTS aspect. So <i>prima facie</i> NS1 has more options but when you get neck deep, more micro skills emerge that cannot be seen on surface. The problem is that because NS1 never had "Korea" or massive scene, a part of NS1 skills were never fully explored.
However the social aspect (especially commander-player relationship) of NS1 what makes it <i>fun</i> and challenging to play. You don't have that in any other game. Even in sports, coaches are not dropping "medpacks" for you. I think this unique aspect of NS1 made it so engaging. Imagine playing Starcraft where you are a grunt being commanded by Boxer, it definitely adds a whole new dimension to it. Also personally I enjoy melee-vs-ranged more than ranged-vs-ranged, and NS is definitely a pinnacle of that. Even if NS isn't the deepest FPS game, it comes very close.
Ultimately its hard to say which of the games had most depth since a) I haven't met NS1 champions who were also CS pros (there might be just haven't looked around) b) the difference between the size of NS1 scene and CS scene was just massive, its like foreign and Korean starcraft, you can't just compare them. COD etc. have more players than SC1 in Europe, but I dare to say that SC1 is way much harder than any of those.
However I think Starcraft BW is way beyond FPS or Fighter games, because I think RTS games are inherently more complex and demanding to master, not to say FPS games are easy. I also think NS1 could probably been refined to be much better (to compete with Starcraft), but I think this would be <i>extremely demanding</i> task. The state of NS1 right now in terms of balance and depth is a an achievement of quite some miracle. It has been like this for quite a many years and it still holds together (6vs6 is balanced). Only 200FPS Jetpack really made the demand for a new patch evident, however this a very controversial issue (given that it has been one of the most hotly debated issue in our scene).
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dh402owua4o&feature=results_video&playnext=1&list=PL2F1BA5F4FD1D5129" target="_blank">Say what?</a> According to this logic Big Brother is the pinnacle of TV shows, Avatar is the pinnacle of movies et cetera. Just go tell a professional classical musician that popularity is a good indicator of depth. CS was first and it was easy to learn which were major reasons for its success, also Valve owned it. Maybe some gaming market expert can answer this question, but popularity is a bad measure of depth. In fact its quite reverse, you cannot attract 10 million players with a game that has complex skills and is too hard to learn. Most consumers of video games are like consumers of movies, they are in for a fun experience without having to practice for long periods of time to get into the game.
Same thing that happened to NS1 is probably happening to SC1 albeit slowly and to lesser extent. To appeal to more general population, skills and depth need to be removed. I'm not saying this has to be bad, as more people can enjoy gaming, but as someone who enjoyed highly-demanding in terms of intelligence and skills, I'm not happy since there won't be a competitive scene of a game I'm interested in.
So I agree you with that many people like other games, mostly probably because they have families, RL stuff etc. and cannot devote to a game. Its exact the same reason classical music isn't as popular as pop music. It takes dedication to appreciate Chopin's études or Picasso's art, and usually only the professionals can really understand what makes them so great. The same goes for other sciences and their insights.
Sorry for the off topic though. On-topic: I think the wallhop mod is very good supplement but in my opinion it isn't a sufficient replacement for bhop.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1876881:date=Sep 25 2011, 02:27 PM:name=Slithers)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Slithers @ Sep 25 2011, 02:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1876881"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As I progress myself in to the gaming industry through other methods, I am pushing to create a video game development team over the course of 5 years. I understand there is a massive void in the market where one spectrum wants hardcore skill games like cs/quake returned, while the other spectrum is crying for the game to be watered down and glorified by graphics.
I will do everything in my power with the money I obtain over the course of 5 years, to create a game that the hardcore skill pvp gamers have been wanting back since counter-strike / quake / unreal tournament days. Just playing every game now a days makes me sick with how much watering down and catering to massive waves of nex generation gamers who "hate losing". I want the days where the developers focus on gameplay and feel of the engine before graphics and actually take chances, risks and innovate new ideas that doesn't relate to the same old wow copy clones or call of duty fps syndrome.
One day, I don't care what it takes, but one day it will be done, this is where I want to be, in the gaming industry as a developer/producer and innovator.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I enjoyed reading both your posts =) Thank you.
The reason why? There are lots of competitive FPS games out there, that market is pretty saturated. There are not lots of competitive RTS games out there by comparison. If NS1 still had the playerbase that CS does, like SC1 did before the old 'upgrade the engine and game stuff', then yeah, it's possible. Although 'dumbing down' NS2 will only make it unpopular with those that made NS1 such a success.
Edit:
I remember NS being steadily in the top 10 steam games played at one point. Now it's not on the list. Partly because of age and then because of the amount of games released on Steam. Now go look at the Steam top list, most of the more popular/played games are popular franchise FPS.
The games on the top of the steam-list are in no way compition for NS2. The question remains, will UWE be able to recover their costs on the niche-fanbase that it has. Well, that and get a proper running product (heres for B186).
And if that questions was aimed at me (or even as a general question), I ask a question in return. Would you like the optimistic or realistic outlook?
In either case NS is more of a jack of all trades master of none in this instance. I dont believe people will play just because of the blending of both genres. NS1 was unique because both sides offered such different play styles and strategies. As Jiriki said "NS1 has more versatility, it has completely asymmetrical sides". We are losing this to "dumbing down" methods in an effort to make it easier to balance? The RTS mode shouldnt ever be as complex as Starcraft and the FPS side shouldnt have as many features as MW3. It just wouldnt work.
Each side whether it be FPS or RTS have been made easy enough for a novice player to jump in, the complexity comes not from the individual element but the blending of them.
Again, the idea that NS2 taps into the same player-base as CoD\MW\CS seems silly. They're both shooters yes, but I don't see people trying to decide whether to buy NS2 or CoD, those worlds are just so far apart. If anything it's SC2 where NS2 has a lot of potential players, other than that, I suppose many people are in a bit of a limbo waiting for something decent to come along. I know I am, hence the question what alternative could be considered for NS1\NS2.
Not really that silly, I came from that player-base(CS/MW) and found(a friend showed me) NS2(before the Alpha), then I learned how NS1 played out.
I also played games like Savage 1/2. And I like RTS blending FPS. CS/CoD/whatever can't compare with this.
NS2 is becoming exactly what I've been searching for in a game.
i think that ^^^^^^ above is the kind of thing people talk about realism for, its a reasonable assumption drawn from real life scenarios we know to be true, even though not all the things involved about it are (eg aliens) everything else about the game has a quite a large amount of realism about it, why should the movement /animation be any different?
you should really think about increasing the speed of jumping off a wall, having a 3-5sec cooldown for it, and using a different button to spacebar, i'd love to see this ingame as an ambush tactic, rather than a way to gain even more speed accross the map ala bunnyhop.
Let's see what you come up with! :D
The thing that slightly concerns me is that the wallhop itself has a pretty strong dependency on the surroundings and it mostly adds up to the areas where aliens already have some kind of possibilities to fight. Meanwhile any fight in more open ground seems extremely uninviting once the performance gets sorted out.
Open ground definitely should be marine favoured, but building up absolutes that aliens can't deal until second hive doesn't seem a good idea. Right now there's already a pretty heavy bias towards specific teams in terms of darkness, power nodes, DI and all that.
suggestion:
make each jump increase velocity as shown in vid...
take out the accelleration by turning (how bh used to work)
introduce deceleration (down to normal speeds) while in the air.
What this means is in order to keep a high speed, you must be 'jump'ing from surface to surface as fast as you can.
ps..
Might also want to cap how many times you can accelerate on a jump over a period of time or skulks speed will be insane when in a vent/shaft