The Whip
aeroripper
Join Date: 2005-02-25 Member: 42471NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
Join Date: 2005-02-25 Member: 42471NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
<div class="IPBDescription">deflecting grenades, and other roles to make it more useful</div>Figured I'd start a new thread about the whip due to this recent video and carry over discussion from the tweet thread:
<a href="http://youtu.be/hgHynP6axsA" target="_blank">http://youtu.be/hgHynP6axsA</a>
A couple of thoughts:
1) The animation could be tweaked so it looks better when flipping it back. A custom sound of hitting the grenade might help.
2) Overwhelming marine GL fire should kill it. One marine's GL will not get any through. 2 marines have a better chance of getting more through (about 1\2). This is for 1 single whip. Multiple whips within range will deflect more.
3) Whips aren't really a big deal currently. GLs will be less useful against them, so marines are more inclined to shoot them instead, making them more vulnerable to skulks.
4) Whips will act as guardians of sorts for the hive and gorges. Maybe ARCs will become more mandatory for taking out entrenched alien hives (or concentrated marine fire and flamers).
5) Bombard ability disables the default "auto-grenade flipping" behavior, but enables longer range attacks for the whip instead.
What do you guys think?
<a href="http://youtu.be/hgHynP6axsA" target="_blank">http://youtu.be/hgHynP6axsA</a>
A couple of thoughts:
1) The animation could be tweaked so it looks better when flipping it back. A custom sound of hitting the grenade might help.
2) Overwhelming marine GL fire should kill it. One marine's GL will not get any through. 2 marines have a better chance of getting more through (about 1\2). This is for 1 single whip. Multiple whips within range will deflect more.
3) Whips aren't really a big deal currently. GLs will be less useful against them, so marines are more inclined to shoot them instead, making them more vulnerable to skulks.
4) Whips will act as guardians of sorts for the hive and gorges. Maybe ARCs will become more mandatory for taking out entrenched alien hives (or concentrated marine fire and flamers).
5) Bombard ability disables the default "auto-grenade flipping" behavior, but enables longer range attacks for the whip instead.
What do you guys think?
Comments
Awesome Idea, and totally fits into the NS-like freaky features that you haven't seen before!
+1
Should definitely see more arcs once this is implemented.
Yea, i can see the crag spamming behind the whip spamming behind the hydra spamming now. And with the terrible hitboxes hydra's have atm..
Think there should be some middle ground where the whip detonates grenades earlier and the damage aoe falloff or some such is reduced slightly so its not a total area denial. Whip 10 res, gl 25 res, i dont think there should be 1 v 1 parity.
I agree.
in fact, particularly skillful marines might be able to use whips to make trick shots and extend the range of their shots much further.
this chamber must have long range ability which doesn't have to be researched or upgraded, passive ability.
<a href="http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/585/ns22011072116165105.jpg/" target="_blank"><img src="http://img585.imageshack.us/img585/5200/ns22011072116165105.th.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /></a>
<a href="http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/585/ns22011072116165105.jpg/" target="_blank"><img src="http://img585.imageshack.us/img585/5200/ns22011072116165105.th.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /></a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Good idea.
It would make the whips useful for area denial. Whips would also be more useful if they could knock jetpack marines to the ground.
If it makes marines smarter I think it is a good idea ;)
Whips in general need a buff with more health and need to be take less damage due to not being on infection.
They should knock marines back to prevent access to certain areas, the grenades idea might work if it's a chance based deflection (40% or so)
It'd make the flamethrower and standard weapons more desirable end-game as well as encourage whip placement. With the inclusion of HMG's the whip would be no problem and would encourage further variety in marine weapon rushes.
Currently the only thing I practically use them for is to stop a marine crouching at the back of a hive. Other than that I use them as a joke rush during long stalemates.
It'd make the whip more practical for restricting access which could be cleared at a later point in the game, as well as providing a couple of real roles for the whip.
Edit:
On a side note, bouncing the grenades off the walls should be an intended counter.
The whips should also deflect the grenades away from other alien structures so they don't end up bouncing them into the hive!
It just flings the grenade away from itself, so it has no smarts. You can (as currently written) use it to hit other alien structures if the geometry is right.
+1 then.
Of course the whip is already a denial structure but it is useless as marines simply stay back, spam grenades and kill several structures at once because of the AOE damage. Currently its simply wasted ressources, at least most of the time. Giving the whip the ability to stop grenades gives the alien more time to react.
Problem is: Aliens already have stronger defenses then Marines currently. Somehow gameplay "changed" as Aliens now seem to be able to play a better defensive tactic then marines can with hyras, whips, crag and shade (leaving hydras out here as they are only "meatshields"). Marines only have sentries and those are only effective in larger groups and lack the punch to be effective in lategame.
Of course the whip is already a denial structure but it is useless as marines simply stay back, spam grenades and kill several structures at once because of the AOE damage. Currently its simply wasted ressources, at least most of the time. Giving the whip the ability to stop grenades gives the alien more time to react.
Problem is: Aliens already have stronger defenses then Marines currently. Somehow gameplay "changed" as Aliens now seem to be able to play a better defensive tactic then marines can with hyras, whips, crag and shade (leaving hydras out here as they are only "meatshields"). Marines only have sentries and those are only effective in larger groups and lack the punch to be effective in lategame.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm guessing thats because of the lack of 360deg rotation on the NS2 Marine turrets
Really? I don't see it that way at all.
A group of marines with a few GLs can whip out an Alien defense pretty quickly usually due to the fact that they can stay out of harms way while lobing gernades into the area.
But aliens (Skulks & Fades) have to get close and personal to take out sentries and other buildings. Although (Gorges & Lerks) have some opportunities to attack them from afar without getting shot but it takes much longer for them to destroy sentries because usually you only have one lerk or gorge attacking one sentry. The time it takes for one GL marine to take out one or more hydras is far shorter than one lerk/gorge taking out one sentry.
How about a tradeoff?
Small whip deflects grenades, mature whips throw acid balls.
And the deflecting throws the grenade back at rougly the same angle (as seen from top-down) as it entered the whips range.
But people would work around it in a second.
Bounce it off the ceiling.
Good discussion though.
The Whip need more play and the ARC is lonely.
A group of marines with a few GLs can whip out an Alien defense pretty quickly usually due to the fact that they can stay out of harms way while lobing gernades into the area.
But aliens (Skulks & Fades) have to get close and personal to take out sentries and other buildings. Although (Gorges & Lerks) have some opportunities to attack them from afar without getting shot but it takes much longer for them to destroy sentries because usually you only have one lerk or gorge attacking one sentry. The time it takes for one GL marine to take out one or more hydras is far shorter than one lerk/gorge taking out one sentry.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sure, but this is more of an issue with the Grenade Launcher being ridiculous strong in breaking defenses. And that would be where the whip idea comes in. Problem then would be that the only effective way to break those would be the ARC which is more of a "lategame" tec while Aliens can plant defensive structures everywhere, dening the Marines enough ressources to push ARCs fast.
The problem with sentries (I would say) is not that they cannot deny areas for skulks early on (they really can), its more that they become useless in late game as they can no longer deny entry to areas to fades, lerks or fully upgraded skulks. So its often not a problem that they take long to be taken down, as it is often no problem to get into their back. Hydras etc still do their job perfectly to Marines. You cannot pass that area before cleaning it out. Which takes time and alerts the alien team. For a upgraded skulk, lerk or fade its often no problem to rush into marine base and to cause havoc, even if there are sentries "blocking" the path. Aliens simply seem to ignore sentries in lategame.
I dont know why that is the case but I suppose that sentry damage does not scale very well with alien armor upgrades.
(I'm going off topic here)
The trouble with Sentries is, they're very weak in ones or pairs, but deal too much damage when Marines can manage to mass them in one area.
Hopefully Onos will be able to take care of Sentry farms to deter such strategies (if they're not crippled by Flamethrowers). However, Sentries will remain to be weak in small numbers.
Perhaps the down time for (commander manually) changing Sentry facing could be reduced, to increase the effectiveness of Sentries.
In ns1 they were very costly because you needed turret factory which limited turrets build range, and created a very costly process.
Now you just build turrets everywhere, the costs for turrets must be increased to compensate for not building turret factory, and increased by a lot more.
More expensive turrets will be placed in more economical places rather then spammed throughout the whole room.
as for whips, they require long range weapon at current state they die under 5 seconds.
the idea if whips (in my mind) whips would be rooted under the infestation, when marines comes within range, it comes out to attack them. if marines moves away, the whip would go back under the infestation. Scan would reveal its location, and killing the power nodes which would remove the infestation. this would somewhat help the whip survival rate but it will not be enough because this chamber must have long range weapon, not something you upgrade or research.