Marine Gun Reloads

WorthyRival · October 2011

<div class="IPBDescription">Reload interuptions & other things</div>This topic started in the niggle thread started by Raneman
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=115182" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=115182</a>
And was considered more than a niggle.

We are here to discuss the Marines reload mechanics.
Specificlly what should be considered a reload interruption.

Sprint interrupting reload

Gun Fire interrupting reload.

Rifle knockback interrupting reload.

Weapon switching interrupting reload.

Empty guns not reloading automaticlly.

My opinion
There's too many ways to interrupt such a important aspect of the game, Namely having bullets to fire in your gun.

Sprint interrupting reload: It's unintuitive, superfluous, breaks immersion and slows gameflow. Not to mention annoying.
In the Niggle thread some people brought up the reality of reloading a gun on the run.
(I have no beef with the reality of it)
But I'm playing a science fiction game set in the future, It seems silly to get caught up in the realism of reloading while running.

Gun Fire interrupting reload: A reload should complete, taking presidence. I've pressed it. Also I may be in a panic, pressing fire a half second to early only to have 1 bullet fire and have to restart the reload cycle all over again.
Should not effect a shotgun with shells loaded.
(It's saved me more times that I'd care to admit when my magazine is half full but to be fair the magazine is out of the gun.)

Rifle knockback interrupting reload: (Should interrupt a reload.)

Weapon switching interrupting reload: (Should interrupt a reload.)

Empty guns not reloading automaticlly: (I want to get back into the fight as soon as possible and as seconds count in a fast paced game like NS2 and this mechanic just seems unnecessary)

I'd prefer a compromise.
Sprint extending the reload time, Adding a extra second(s) to a reload, and not interrupting it.

If you want to boost the skill level for clan play/realism.
Make reload interruptions server side options and options in the game settings for pros to be able to practice if the setting are not enforced on a server.
For general games it's not intuitive, Especially to new players.

Kalabalana · October 2011

Agree on all fronts.

inFamous Design · October 2011

I agree with you totally and they are all reasonable solutions to the problem. I especially like sprinting while reloading just takes longer aspect. This would save my life so much, and its realistic because I'm positive a marine in battle has ran away and reloaded at the same time. All of this should be changed! :)

RichardRahl · October 2011

kindly find me 5 games where you can reload while doing any other actions. I doubt you will be able to because there aren't many that do simply because it makes no sense. Sprint breaking reload does not break immersion, you're making silly excuses because you want things to be easy mode.

WorthyRival · October 2011

So other than disagreeing with me on the sprint interruption.
Do you have any other feed back on the other interruptions ?

I am trying to think of the casual player and not just myself.
What sells ?
What keeps people coming back ?
Is it easy to introduce new players without too steep a learning curve ?
I want NS2 to be a success so I can join a server at any time and people are playing. Like Counter Strike, Team Fortress 2 or one of the many other countless game titles that have large stable communities.

Not everyone wants to be a pro gamer, In fact I don't think I would be wrong to estimate 90% of people who buy NS2 at 1.0, will be casual player/gamers and developers should panda too their needs in order to be a commercial success, Hence my suggestion to include server side settings and game settings to satisfy both target audiences.

RichardRahl · October 2011

Other than sprint not interrupting reload I can agree with most of the other points you bring up. and all these other successes do not have reload while sprinting. Just because games have a high learning curve does not mean they will not be a success. Infact 90% of FPS games have a high learning curve to be excellent at the game. You can suck and play Counter strike and go 5-30 and still play because the learning curve is high, just like NS2. If games do not have a high learning curve people will simply get bored of the game quickly.

thefonz · October 2011

Best solution IMO

Let auto reload (out of ammo) be interuptible by anything. basically as it is now. Out of ammo and want to run for it? YOU CAN!!!!

Manual reload should only be interrupted in two cases.
1) switching weapons
2) secondary attack (i.e. rifle butt)

beyond that, don't interrupt a manual reload. I know what I was doing when I pressed 'r' dammit! If i wanted to sprint away, I would have. Maybe I want to sprint after my reload and I'm a half second early when I hit the button. Even bigger pain when I do a manual reload because I have 2 rounds left, another skulk comes around a corner, and I hit fire too early. I get off two shots and the skulk eats my face.

never mind that the mag just poofed back into my gun for those wonderful two shots.

CannonFodder100 · October 2011

Distinguishing between automatic and manual reloads is bound to cause headaches. I agree, however, that having the magazine teleporting into the weapon is massively immersion breaking. I believe that a simple compromise would be allowing melee and sprint to break reloads, while firing will not. When you resume reloading, you need only go through a smaller time span; having already removed the magazine, we need only place a new one and chamber a round if we're out of bullets.

Techercizer · October 2011

I support the original post across the board.

swalk · November 2011

My opinions.
Sprint interrupting reload.
Should be possible to start sprinting as you are reloading, but reloading would be interrupted.

Gun Fire interrupting reload.
Should not be possible. It's annoying when you think you are done reloading, and then fire the last two bullets from the previous mag.
And it doesn't help the decision making of when to reload.

Rifle knockback interrupting reload.
Should be possible. And the damage reduced a bit.

Weapon switching interrupting reload.
Should be possible, ofc.

Empty guns not reloading automaticlly.
They should.

Kalabalana · November 2011

Totally agree.
FPS gaming 101: Sprint, and weapon switch interrupts absolutely anything you are doing. I'm surprised any game comes without this inherent functionality.

Ideally you want a player to be able to do anything he chooses to do, but certain game mechanics may restrict this.

Cataclyzm · November 2011

Is there room for advanced player options?
New players will need the action that takes precedence to be intuitive and, if possible, uniform. For those who have become more familiar with the game may opt for advanced configuration, which should not alter balance, but help in assisting the player in prioritizing his own actions.

To start the brainstorming... by default nothing interrupts reload. It's simple and uniform. A new player should quickly realize that once the reload sequence starts, they have committed.
As players become more experienced, they may opt to allow their reloads to be interrupted. For example, a player may opt to have switching weapons interrupt reload, at the expense of the clip (clip lost). The advanced player would be well aware of the cost since they opted in "advanced settings" to enable the capability. Again, this would not prevent new players from enjoying the game. In fact, many would probably be unaware of these added mechanic within the game until they spent a reasonable amount of time playing. At the same time, this can give advanced players that additional edge that they may be seeking out of customized control.

Thoughts on that?

Cataclyzm · November 2011

To expand a little on what the advanced settings, I mentioned, may allow, I started by thinking about the reload sequence as a series of phases or key events:

A.) Old Magazine Release? True/False
- Animation: magazine released (note: no pre-animation included), hand reaches for new magazine
B.) New Magazine Engaged? True/False
- Animation: hand brings up new magazine, magazine attached to gun
C.) Gun Cocked? True/False
- Animation: hand ###### gun

Bear in mind the following potential interuptions:
Sprint
Rifle Butt Attack
Weapon Switching
Build
Note: Firing the gun will never interrupt because the sequence begins by releasing the old clip.

In the advanced settings, each interrupt will act slightly differently at each phase.

A.) Old Magazine Release?
Interruptable?: Always
Variables: Slight Delay to discourage potential weapon switching exploitation to speed up this phase of the reload sequence.
End Interruption: Gun is ready for phase 'B'
End Interruption Model: Gun missing magazine, hand down in "reaching" position for new magazine.

B.) New Magazine Engaged?
Interruptable?: Always
Variables: Loss of magazine, slight delay for player to drop magazine.
End Interruption: Gun is ready for phase 'B' (again)
End Interruption Model: Gun missing magazine, hand down in "reaching" position for new magazine.
Variation: Building has a longer delay where the player puts the magazine away. (implement?)

C.) Gun Cocked?
Interruptable?: Always -OR- Never (see variation)
Variables: No delay
End Interruption: Gun is ready for 'C'.
End Interruption Model: Hands on 'normal' gun position.
Variation: For simplicity and due to the minimal time involved in this phase, once the magazine is engaged the player should be committed to ###### the gun.

Shotguns, obviously, act slightly differently considering shells are ejected "while" shooting. Shells, can be loaded independently. Simply, a shotgun follows phase 'A' and 'B' multiple times in a single reload, but should be allowed to be interrupted like the LMG. Timing the interrupt will determine whether a shell is lost or not (think advanced players).

To reiterate... this would all fall under for advanced player control. By default, the game would never allow any interruption in the reload sequence.

Edit: I'm leaving the #s.

WorthyRival · November 2011

Great post Cataclyzm.

I would love for such advanced options to be availible to be able to customise my play style.
Perhaps someone with the skills could make a mod.
Options to toggle an interuption on or off with all interuptions set to off by default.

Cataclyzm · November 2011

Not that I came up with a comprehensive list... I envisioned that there would be advanced control options available, beyond just reloading interrupts, that would open up entirely new avenues for experienced players to become further immersed in the game, raise the learning ceiling, and still provide a play-able game for new players without overstimulating them.

Marine Gun Reloads

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