0) The blink invulnerability (and invisibility) is overpowered.
Solutions :
1) Remove totally invulnerability while blinking 2) Remove partially invulnerability while blinking 3) Prevent the fade to blink so much by introducing additional energy cost, delays, etc.
I think the worse solution is 3) because it's not fun for the fade (obviously) nor for the marines (you can't really hit the fade unless he makes a mistake).
We already discussed about some version of 2) (e.g. here <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=115112&view=findpost&p=1879094" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...&p=1879094</a>)
I use to think the Fade was OP, then I got better at NS2.
I play pub games alot and in those games, killing Fades is just hopeless, most of the time the other marines can't shoot and thier is nothing you can do to solo a fade.
When I play with 1+ other person, Fades are so easy to kill, 2 people with SGs, will destroy a Fade.
Remember also, (assuming NS1 game assets), that Marines, get HMG / HA and JP, Aliens only get Onos.
<!--quoteo(post=1881424:date=Oct 23 2011, 06:44 PM:name=Raza.)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Raza. @ Oct 23 2011, 06:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1881424"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think the whole concept of the NS2 fade is a bit flawed. It is supposed to be a good damage dealer like in NS1, but due to the changed resource model the aliens can now field more of them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think it's more than a bit flawed in a couple of ways, but looks like we're just going to have to see how they wiggle it out from the pit.
In short what I've probably talked about in numerous threads and various forms already:
1.) The movement doesn't really work yet. Anyone can do decent damage, but it goes nowhere from there. On newbie level fade is ridiculously good, but when people start aiming fade can do nothing to go further. It's not fun to play or meaningful to balance such lifeform in the long run.
2.) The res model makes everything go crazy. In the future I can scenarios where half of the team goes fade simultaneously and then either totally dominate or get shred to pieces within the next minute, deciding the round instantly. The heavily nerfed HP and armor don't make fade much of a consistent fighter as it relies a lot on marines missing shots rather than having ability to calculate the amount of incoming punishment.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I would like to keep the fade's agility, so I'm not too fond of longer cooldowns or higher energy costs for blink.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeah, less agile lifeform scales even worse to the marine aiming. It's going to fall apart on some level of play unless the decisionmaking part is incredibly deep or something.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Getting rid of the invulnerability and the invisibility would be a step in the right direction, imo.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think one option would be to cross breed the NS1 and NS2 blinks. You could still briefly avoid damage and distract enemies by going ethereal, but the main travelling method would be 'flying' NS1 style with speed carried over from the acceleration in the ethereal phase. Basic combat would involve fade jumping close to the marines with ethereal shift and then diving at the marines all visible with the speed gained from going ethereal.
I think the devs have said that Fade model was designed with a clear idea that it's ground based and isn't going to fly like the NS1 counterpart, but right now I can't see the NS2 design working. Unless they've got some amazing masterplan how to get it all together and working I'd be more than willing to count the flying as a necessary evil.
Well Im not so good at NS2 (and hasn't played NS1.. yet) lol but I still don't really care if the fade was more OP in NS1 (Don't get me wrong im not complaining on NS1!) because NS1 and NS2 is diffrent games. I think honestly we must stop comparing the old game with the new game. I don't do that and I think NS2 is one of the best games Ive ever played honestly. If you had such a great time while playing NS1 back in the day go play it or make/wait for someone to make a NS1 mod for NS2. And back to the fade thing, Yes I know a few marines can take down a fade but still one fade versus one marine with flamethrower isn't fair IMO (they cost the same amount of res). It's a weapon versus a beast that is strong in many aspects (if not all).
And then again Im sorry If I say alot of bull###### Im kinda new to NS2 :)
I chalk up the current OP to performance related problems. I am not denying it ...I am saying alot of it is probably more related to performance and hard to quantify at this time. (At times the skulk feels OP)
Once the gameplay smooths out more then the fade should be reevaluated. Until then core features please.
The fade should always be a monster unit. He should be frightening and hard to dispatch. He is expensive and a decent wait to grow him.
I should have fear facing him alone ...I hope he is already hurt I should have doubt with friends ...I hope these guys know how to shoot.
The fade is a monster...you should quake the same way a skulk does when he hears someone firing a grenade launcher.
I'd like the Blink cooldown timer to start at the end of a Blink, rather then when you start one.
Reduce total fade armor from 150 to 125, and add a slight delay, or damage nerf on the initial swipe when exiting a blink (within the cooldown period).
<!--quoteo(post=1881527:date=Oct 23 2011, 11:10 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Oct 23 2011, 11:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1881527"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->RAH RAH RAH. we already heard it on the thread you created to say the same damn thing. you're not even contributing to the content of the thread, you're just complaining again. save it.
here's an example of contributing conversation to a discussion: "say, what if they included the HMG mid game? that could aid in fade combat gameplay especially if it's rounds were dedicated to fade armor etc?"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
QuovatisTeam InversionJoin Date: 2010-01-26Member: 70321Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
The biggest problem is that the fade can't be hit during blink. Many times in the current build, marines can "see" the fade while it's blinking. This leads to the confusing situation where you see your target, shoot at it, but are unable to do damage to it. Marines end up wasting ammo shooting at blinking fades because they can see it the whole time. So for now, the model at least needs to be fixed where you can't see the fade in blink, or make it glow bright orange or something so that you can easily tell when and when not to shoot.
As for actual balance, the fade simply needs to be damageable while blinking, whether it is visible or not. As we've complained for months now, the fade can get a "free" swipe in after it exits blink. All it needs is one more swipe to kill, then blink away to safety. A good fade is almost impossible to kill (I got 125 consecutive kills as a fade without dying in a game last night). Adjusting fade health or marine damage won't help things much...it's the blink mechanic that is the problem.
I like that with fades glowing orange while blinking :D Oh and yes the main thing about fades that bothers me is their speed, they can come in kill someone (or lots of people) and then Bam! they're gone. And yes, maybe I can't tell If its the fade that is op or if my fps is so low that I shoot at air sometimes.
<!--quoteo(post=1881689:date=Oct 24 2011, 02:35 PM:name=Shalfa)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Shalfa @ Oct 24 2011, 02:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1881689"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I like that with fades glowing orange while blinking :D Oh and yes the main thing about fades that bothers me is their speed, they can come in kill someone (or lots of people) and then Bam! they're gone. And yes, maybe I can't tell If its the fade that is op or if my fps is so low that I shoot at air sometimes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That's kind of the entire point of the Fade as a lifeform; it's the hit-and-run class.
I'm a complete noob at fade, i played NS1 too and the fade in NS1 was also harder to play with imo. Right now (as a noob fade) I just blink around and 'try' to hit someone, 9/10 I survive...
Fade is too easy now..
I think they should nerf the blinking like said in the posts above OR lower the armor/hp of the fade
<i>To reiterate a few points in this thread - </i>
Sure, the fade feels overpowered <b>now</b>, when you're essentially speaking about a game dynamic that's incomplete. We can safely say heavies are the answer to fades, and to take a cue from NS1, I always found with two efficient teams heavies were never far behind fades in terms of game time to acquire them. Considering alien expansion is far slower than marine, it would stand to reason they might gain an advantage in tech a little sooner than the marine team, which they currently do in NS2. Looking ahead, it seems these things are set in place as they should be for the other pieces of the game to be implemented. I am sure then it will feel like a much better fit. I wouldn't expect UW to make any drastic changes to completely balance the game in its current state just for the sake of gameplay in the beta. That kind of work should be done when everything is on the table.
Better to get these things right now, so they will work later. After all, NS2 is in development.
Maybe the fade could have a weak spot? Like a spot on the his back or neck or both, where if he is attacking one marine in a corner, others can shoot at its back so it is forced to fight all. Remember hin Halo 1 or 2 where the Hunters, the big blue guys had a small orange spot on their back that you could shoot at and kill them easier?
<!--quoteo(post=1881937:date=Oct 25 2011, 12:01 PM:name=B1ackSmoke)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (B1ackSmoke @ Oct 25 2011, 12:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1881937"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Maybe the fade could have a weak spot?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Because randomly spreading 10res shotgun pellets all over a 40res life form doesn't murder it <i>enough</i> as it is, right?
Once marines get T3 tech implemented for their side, I expect some fade buffs to be delivered, or at least some significant movement polish.
Honestly, It would really matter because the fade is so fast and with the current FPS I and many other players have, you can't really see exactly what place of the enemy you're shooting at >:/
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
Balancing the current blink implementation is going to be extremely difficult, maybe even impossible. Unfortunately that isn't even the biggest problem, the biggest problem is that it has very little depth (once you've learnt the basics, there's nothing more to it) and even worse: it's boring to play as fade and it's even more boring to play against it.
Comments
0) The blink invulnerability (and invisibility) is overpowered.
Solutions :
1) Remove totally invulnerability while blinking
2) Remove partially invulnerability while blinking
3) Prevent the fade to blink so much by introducing additional energy cost, delays, etc.
I think the worse solution is 3) because it's not fun for the fade (obviously) nor for the marines (you can't really hit the fade unless he makes a mistake).
We already discussed about some version of 2) (e.g. here <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=115112&view=findpost&p=1879094" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...&p=1879094</a>)
I play pub games alot and in those games, killing Fades is just hopeless, most of the time the other marines can't shoot and thier is nothing you can do to solo a fade.
When I play with 1+ other person, Fades are so easy to kill, 2 people with SGs, will destroy a Fade.
Remember also, (assuming NS1 game assets), that Marines, get HMG / HA and JP, Aliens only get Onos.
Marines > Aliens @ T1
Marines < Aliens @ T2
Marines > Aliens @ T3
Thats how I see it, anyway.
It is supposed to be a good damage dealer like in NS1, but due to the changed resource model the aliens can now field more of them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think it's more than a bit flawed in a couple of ways, but looks like we're just going to have to see how they wiggle it out from the pit.
In short what I've probably talked about in numerous threads and various forms already:
1.) The movement doesn't really work yet. Anyone can do decent damage, but it goes nowhere from there. On newbie level fade is ridiculously good, but when people start aiming fade can do nothing to go further. It's not fun to play or meaningful to balance such lifeform in the long run.
2.) The res model makes everything go crazy. In the future I can scenarios where half of the team goes fade simultaneously and then either totally dominate or get shred to pieces within the next minute, deciding the round instantly. The heavily nerfed HP and armor don't make fade much of a consistent fighter as it relies a lot on marines missing shots rather than having ability to calculate the amount of incoming punishment.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I would like to keep the fade's agility, so I'm not too fond of longer cooldowns or higher energy costs for blink.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, less agile lifeform scales even worse to the marine aiming. It's going to fall apart on some level of play unless the decisionmaking part is incredibly deep or something.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Getting rid of the invulnerability and the invisibility would be a step in the right direction, imo.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think one option would be to cross breed the NS1 and NS2 blinks. You could still briefly avoid damage and distract enemies by going ethereal, but the main travelling method would be 'flying' NS1 style with speed carried over from the acceleration in the ethereal phase. Basic combat would involve fade jumping close to the marines with ethereal shift and then diving at the marines all visible with the speed gained from going ethereal.
I think the devs have said that Fade model was designed with a clear idea that it's ground based and isn't going to fly like the NS1 counterpart, but right now I can't see the NS2 design working. Unless they've got some amazing masterplan how to get it all together and working I'd be more than willing to count the flying as a necessary evil.
And then again Im sorry If I say alot of bull###### Im kinda new to NS2 :)
Like people have mentioned, performance improvements will generally shift the balance in Marines' favour.
I am not denying it ...I am saying alot of it is probably more related to performance and hard to quantify at this time.
(At times the skulk feels OP)
Once the gameplay smooths out more then the fade should be reevaluated.
Until then core features please.
The fade should always be a monster unit.
He should be frightening and hard to dispatch.
He is expensive and a decent wait to grow him.
I should have fear facing him alone ...I hope he is already hurt
I should have doubt with friends ...I hope these guys know how to shoot.
The fade is a monster...you should quake the same way a skulk does when he hears someone firing a grenade launcher.
Reduce total fade armor from 150 to 125, and add a slight delay, or damage nerf on the initial swipe when exiting a blink (within the cooldown period).
This will balance the fade imo.
we already heard it on the thread you created to say the same damn thing.
you're not even contributing to the content of the thread, you're just complaining again.
save it.
here's an example of contributing conversation to a discussion:
"say, what if they included the HMG mid game? that could aid in fade combat gameplay especially if it's rounds were dedicated to fade armor etc?"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
\Link to said thread please?
As for actual balance, the fade simply needs to be damageable while blinking, whether it is visible or not. As we've complained for months now, the fade can get a "free" swipe in after it exits blink. All it needs is one more swipe to kill, then blink away to safety. A good fade is almost impossible to kill (I got 125 consecutive kills as a fade without dying in a game last night). Adjusting fade health or marine damage won't help things much...it's the blink mechanic that is the problem.
That's kind of the entire point of the Fade as a lifeform; it's the hit-and-run class.
Fade is too easy now..
I think they should nerf the blinking like said in the posts above OR lower the armor/hp of the fade
Sure, the fade feels overpowered <b>now</b>, when you're essentially speaking about a game dynamic that's incomplete. We can safely say heavies are the answer to fades, and to take a cue from NS1, I always found with two efficient teams heavies were never far behind fades in terms of game time to acquire them. Considering alien expansion is far slower than marine, it would stand to reason they might gain an advantage in tech a little sooner than the marine team, which they currently do in NS2. Looking ahead, it seems these things are set in place as they should be for the other pieces of the game to be implemented. I am sure then it will feel like a much better fit. I wouldn't expect UW to make any drastic changes to completely balance the game in its current state just for the sake of gameplay in the beta. That kind of work should be done when everything is on the table.
Better to get these things right now, so they will work later. After all, NS2 is in development.
Like a spot on the his back or neck or both, where if he is attacking one marine in a corner, others can shoot at its back so it is forced to fight all.
Remember hin Halo 1 or 2 where the Hunters, the big blue guys had a small orange spot on their back that you could shoot at and kill them easier?
<img src="http://www.supercheats.com/guides/files/guid/halo-3-odst/h3odst44.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
<img src="http://epicheroes.com/images/gameheroes/HALO_3_hunter_box_epic_heroes_com.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
This seems to be a better alternative to me rather than lowering his entire HP.
Now by no means am I saying we should change this game to halo, I'm just giving a picture example.
-B1ackSmoke
Because randomly spreading 10res shotgun pellets all over a 40res life form doesn't murder it <i>enough</i> as it is, right?
Once marines get T3 tech implemented for their side, I expect some fade buffs to be delivered, or at least some significant movement polish.
it would balance this issue out, as well as the alien victory rates.