Shotgun Range

thefonzthefonz Join Date: 2011-06-22 Member: 105847Members
in NS2 General Discussion
<div class="IPBDescription">Anyone else having a hard time with it?</div>Quite frankly, unless the barrel is down a skulks mouth, I have a hard time getting a feeling for the shotgun's range. It feels VERY unintuitive.

Anyone else have opinions?
Anyone have a good way to gauge the shotgun's effective range?
Off Topic Disagree Agree Awesome
«1

Comments

  • GrizzyGrizzy Join Date: 2011-10-14 Member: 127323Members
    The shotgun shell spread is quite random and it can get very wide unless you fire it close range.

    Add in the usual animation and fps issues and bam... you got yourself one very useless weapon at longer range right now.
    Off Topic Disagree Agree Awesome
  • FloodinatorFloodinator [HBZ] Member Join Date: 2005-02-22 Member: 42087Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    It' range is 20m and the damage is between 20 (at 0m) and 1 (at 20m). It also has a large spread so it is only effective at close to close-mid range.
    20m are the furthest distance you can read somebodys name ingame.

    So killing skulks at mid range is more luck than skill with SG.
    Off Topic Disagree Agree Awesome
  • John.John. Join Date: 2011-10-13 Member: 127202Members
    To me it also seems like the shotgun has a slight delay when pressing fire and it actually shooting.
    Off Topic Disagree Agree Awesome
  • TimTim Join Date: 2011-07-24 Member: 111958Members
    I think it'd be nice if the range was slightly longer, I think the shotgun isn't used as much as it should be mid-late game.
    Off Topic Disagree Agree Awesome
  • Gorge_LucasGorge_Lucas Join Date: 2011-07-10 Member: 109352Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1881092:date=Oct 22 2011, 11:13 AM:name=John.)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (John. @ Oct 22 2011, 11:13 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1881092"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->To me it also seems like the shotgun has a slight delay when pressing fire and it actually shooting.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->


    Yeah I found this to be the case also. Generally I find the shotgun very random.

    Any dev comments on why this is so?
    Off Topic Disagree Agree Awesome
  • WheeeeWheeee Join Date: 2003-02-18 Member: 13713Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    the spread is weird. i've been able to 1 shot a skulk at about 10 meters, but usually they need to be right in front of you.
    Off Topic Disagree Agree Awesome
  • Chris0132Chris0132 Join Date: 2009-07-25 Member: 68262Members
    It has a wide spread but shoots very few pellets, the overall effect is that accuracy is entirely down to luck at any sort of range.
    Off Topic Disagree Agree Awesome
  • YuukiYuuki Join Date: 2010-11-20 Member: 75079Members
    Yes, it fires only 10 pellets, in random directions, so it gets very stochastic for long range. An easy fix would be to increase to number of pellets (like 50) and to reduce the damage per pellet by the same factor.

    Then there is a distance cutoff, it just don't shoot anything when the distance is too long. The damage per pellet also decrease linearly with the distance, combined with the spread of the pellets you probably get something that decrease even faster. This is a bit weird that the pellets loose all their energy along such small distance. An easy fix would be to remove the energy loss and to increase a bit the spreading (and maybe change the distribution).

    The spread for 100 pellets (seems to be Gaussian):

    <img src="http://i.imgur.com/zua84.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />

    Just a little be further, nothing goes out of your gun :

    <img src="http://i.imgur.com/Xkdts.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
    Off Topic Disagree Agree Awesome
  • Chris0132Chris0132 Join Date: 2009-07-25 Member: 68262Members
    edited October 2011
    <!--quoteo(post=1881153:date=Oct 22 2011, 11:26 AM:name=Yuuki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Yuuki @ Oct 22 2011, 11:26 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1881153"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yes, it fires only 10 pellets, in random directions, so it gets very stochastic for long range. An easy fix would be to increase to number of pellets (like 50) and to reduce the damage per pellet by the same factor.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    I've been asking for that for a while, it'd be vastly preferable.

    I don't know if 50 is really required but 20 at least seems reasonable, you could also cut the max spread a bit to help with the distribution.

    Honestly I think the best shotguns I've seen in a game are the ones from the STALKER series, they do a lot of damage close up, especially against unarmored targets, but at range, while they always hit you, they do pretty negligible damage. Obviously if you stand there and get shot a lot it will kill you, but compared to a rifle, the DPS at range is pretty terrible.

    If hitting a target at range did maybe 15-20 damage, that's be better, not a good idea to shoot at long range if you need to conserve ammo, but certainly worth doing if it's a small target and you have nothing better to do.
    Off Topic Disagree Agree Awesome
  • YuukiYuuki Join Date: 2010-11-20 Member: 75079Members
    Yeah, I think the damage per pellet should decrease exponentially with the distance (due to air friction the speed decreases like exp(-kt), and the kinetic energy is 1/2 m v^2), and not linearly, so that you will always do some damage (but very small) even at long distance.
    Off Topic Disagree Agree Awesome
  • konatakonata Join Date: 2011-08-24 Member: 118296Members
    It only fires 10 pellets? I see loads more showing up on the screen. Little weird and misleading.
    Off Topic Disagree Agree Awesome
  • YuukiYuuki Join Date: 2010-11-20 Member: 75079Members
    10 yep, but on the screenshot above there is 100.

    <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->kShotgunBulletsPerShot = 10<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Off Topic Disagree Agree Awesome
  • KalabalanaKalabalana Join Date: 2003-11-14 Member: 22859Members
    I would prefer a standard spread pattern rather than this one which feels overly random.
    Off Topic Disagree Agree Awesome
  • Chris0132Chris0132 Join Date: 2009-07-25 Member: 68262Members
    It is random, semi random, but it's weighted towards the centre. The problem is that it fires way too few pellets over the area.
    Off Topic Disagree Agree Awesome
  • YuukiYuuki Join Date: 2010-11-20 Member: 75079Members
    Just made a simple mod to test theses ideas:

    <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=115247" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=115247</a>

    I didn't find how to change the distribution of the spread however (uniform might be better).
    Off Topic Disagree Agree Awesome
  • Chris0132Chris0132 Join Date: 2009-07-25 Member: 68262Members
    Uniform would be more random, at least with the weighted disstribution you can be relatively sure that if you aim at the object at least something will hit it, you just don't know how many pellets. If you used unweighted distribution you would lose even that.
    Off Topic Disagree Agree Awesome
  • YuukiYuuki Join Date: 2010-11-20 Member: 75079Members
    I was thinking of it because it gives an easy way to compute how the spread due to the distance affects the damage taken by the target. But it's true that something centered is better, specially because it rewards aiming at long range.
    Off Topic Disagree Agree Awesome
  • fanaticfanatic This post has been edited. Join Date: 2003-07-23 Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
    edited October 2011
    Bear in mind that the NS1 shotgun fired even less pellets per shot, eight if I remember correctly, but still didn't feel random and unreliable (even after the spread was randomized in 3.2) like the NS2 shotgun. I don't think the problem lies with the amount of pellets per shot, although it might be a contributing factor. Simply increasing the amount of pellets is akin to treating the symptom, not the disease.
    Off Topic Disagree Agree Awesome
  • RockyMarcRockyMarc Join Date: 2009-11-24 Member: 69519Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    Might be going off topic a little here, but while we are talking about bullets and such...
    What about tracer bullets? As in you and the aliens can see the bullets being fired and where they are coming from?
    Off Topic Disagree Agree Awesome
  • paellapaella Join Date: 2007-03-23 Member: 60463Members, Constellation
    edited October 2011
    I agree that that would be preferable to having little red triangles on your hud to indicate direction of attack. Not sure how they'd do it for hitscan weapons though. As they do not actually travel through the in-game world, no tracer animation would actually correspond to anything actually happening.
    Off Topic Disagree Agree Awesome
  • HybridclawHybridclaw Join Date: 2003-11-03 Member: 22271Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1881306:date=Oct 22 2011, 10:16 PM:name=paella)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (paella @ Oct 22 2011, 10:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1881306"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I agree that that would be preferable to having little red triangles on your hud to indicate direction of attack. Not sure how they'd do it for hitscan weapons though. As they do not actually travel through the in-game world, no tracer animation would actually correspond to anything actually happening.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    The fraction of a second difference won’t matter much. Tracers are only needed to help aliens determine the general direction the bullets are coming from (not to mention help the marines concentrate their fire on the same target).

    However, a bright yellow line that connects the barrel of the gun to the target works well as a tracer. It would look kind of silly though.
    Off Topic Disagree Agree Awesome
  • Shrike3OShrike3O Join Date: 2002-11-03 Member: 6678Members, Constellation
    HL1 had tracers. The hitscan happens instantaneously, the game just draws something moving over that distance over the next couple of frames. In most situations, the target isn't moving so fast that the "real" flight time of the tracer results in a visible miss despite an actual hit, although I'm not sure how much of an issue shooting at high speed lerks and skulks might become.

    20 meters is a ridiculously short max range for the shotgun when you take into account that the damage per pellet over those last several meters is in the single digits, and you're unlikely to hit with more than a couple of them anyway. Your effective range is more like 5-8 meters, with some area effectiveness out to maybe 12. If the damage falloff stopped at 10 or so, 20 meters max range might be more acceptable... but I'd rather see the max range out far enough that I've at least got a chance to hit something I'm trying to pepper with my shotgun at long range, even though I may only do a few points of damage. Having the pellets magically disappear 20 steps from where I'm standing is frustrating.
    Off Topic Disagree Agree Awesome
  • KalabalanaKalabalana Join Date: 2003-11-14 Member: 22859Members
    edited October 2011
    What if there were 4 cones of trajectory, and the pellets were randomly distributed in each cone? The cones overlap, the center cone has 4 pellets randomly shot in it, in the 'border' of the next cone, which is larger, have 3 pellets randomly placed, another larger cone, with 2 pellets in it's border, and one final last cone, with 1 random pellet in it.

    This retain's all the randomness of the 10 pellets, but does so in a more realized and predictable manner. So with this new shotgun spray pattern, you'll never get screwed out of a kill because the random generation of the pellets went wonky in that game winning shot in the NS2HD tournament.
    Off Topic Disagree Agree Awesome
  • WheeeeWheeee Join Date: 2003-02-18 Member: 13713Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited October 2011
    i think the ns1 shotgun felt easier to aim because the alien hitboxes were square and rectangular polygons instead of conforming to the player model. the surface area you need to hit has decreased some.
    Off Topic Disagree Agree Awesome
  • thefonzthefonz Join Date: 2011-06-22 Member: 105847Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1882245:date=Oct 26 2011, 07:56 PM:name=Wheeee)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wheeee @ Oct 26 2011, 07:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1882245"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i think the ns1 shotgun felt easier to aim because the alien hitboxes were square and rectangular polygons instead of conforming to the player model. the surface area you need to hit has decreased some.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Interesting point.
    Off Topic Disagree Agree Awesome
  • RichardRahlRichardRahl Join Date: 2011-06-15 Member: 104594Members
    I'll go ahead and say the same thing I said in another shotgun thread lol @ 20m shotguns nowadays can fire pellets upwards of 200M and still be lethal yet this is supposed to be hundreds of years into the future and we have decreased down to 20m.
    Off Topic Disagree Agree Awesome
  • KurrineKurrine Join Date: 2010-07-03 Member: 72235Members
    Very lazy nanites, obviously.
    Off Topic Disagree Agree Awesome
  • John.John. Join Date: 2011-10-13 Member: 127202Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1882568:date=Oct 28 2011, 08:24 PM:name=RichardRahl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RichardRahl @ Oct 28 2011, 08:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1882568"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'll go ahead and say the same thing I said in another shotgun thread lol @ 20m shotguns nowadays can fire pellets upwards of 200M and still be lethal yet this is supposed to be hundreds of years into the future and we have decreased down to 20m.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->


    Aliens with thick outer armor like skin. Lethal to what at 200m? Cows, elephants, rhinos, alligators or just animals without thick skin?
    Off Topic Disagree Agree Awesome
  • thefonzthefonz Join Date: 2011-06-22 Member: 105847Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1882568:date=Oct 28 2011, 06:24 PM:name=RichardRahl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RichardRahl @ Oct 28 2011, 06:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1882568"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'll go ahead and say the same thing I said in another shotgun thread lol @ 20m shotguns nowadays can fire pellets upwards of 200M and still be lethal yet this is supposed to be hundreds of years into the future and we have decreased down to 20m.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Pellets lethal at 200m? Are you shooting at anemic daisies? Consider that a 22 caliber bullet occasionally fails to break a persons skin.....

    Now if you are talking about slugs... maybe. Assuming you are accurate to 200m.
    Off Topic Disagree Agree Awesome
  • KurrineKurrine Join Date: 2010-07-03 Member: 72235Members
    Yeah, his numbers are pretty off, but either way the shotgun damage falloff and range isn't right at the moment.
    Off Topic Disagree Agree Awesome
Sign In or Register to comment.