InsaneAnomalyJoin Date: 2002-05-13Member: 605Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Subnautica Developer, Pistachionauts, Future Perfect Developer
<!--quoteo(post=1883637:date=Nov 4 2011, 08:00 AM:name=B1ackSmoke)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (B1ackSmoke @ Nov 4 2011, 08:00 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1883637"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Have you guys considered a neutral room having spotlights from off the ceilings kind of like in these pictures. Instead of having it just the same as it would be with the node in.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
One of the reasons for having the neutral state as well as the active and destroyed states is so that the maps spend more time in the default, mapper-created lighting conditions. It doesn't make a lot of sense for us to spend ages creating awesome, atmospheric lighting arrangements only for them to be turned off for the majority of a game.
<!--quoteo(post=1883656:date=Nov 4 2011, 04:35 AM:name=Insane)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Insane @ Nov 4 2011, 04:35 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1883656"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->One of the reasons for having the neutral state as well as the active and destroyed states is so that the maps spend more time in the default, mapper-created lighting conditions. It doesn't make a lot of sense for us to spend ages creating awesome, atmospheric lighting arrangements only for them to be turned off for the majority of a game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think the idea is that the mapper's default lighting needs to be neutrally balanced for both sides. Normally a mapper sets up the lighting in a room to be mostly illuminated to show off the space and the geometric design. The problem with this practice is that it makes the neutral spaces of the map favor marines by having fewer ambush opportunities created by shadows. The desire I and many others seem to have is to make the neutral lighting state be more contrasting and dramatic. This can still be very beautiful and show off the mapper's creation, but leaves some darker corner's and a bit of spookiness.
I envision making the neutral lighting of the map have more character and reflecting the dis-used, derelict impression that these environments should have. This will be a balance between dark & foreboding vs bright and inviting. It will also give both sides the thrill of affecting the lighting in their territory.
I really believe the control of environmental lighting as part of the strategy of the two sides is a great feature for NS2. I understand the concerns of the mappers that don't want the maps to be played mostly in the dark. But a balance can be found. That balance even allows for interesting (non-standard) lighting ideas and techniques to be used by mappers. There are now 3 different lighting setups that mappers can create. Embrace the freedom and opportunity of that. Don't limit the atmosphere of the map to lit or unlit.
I have come to the conclusion that we are all saying the same thing. Instead of having just one set default for a neutral room, it would be whatever the mapper sets it to be. Then once the power nodes are put in/destroyed it will be light or dark plus whatever effects the mapper wants.
I'm guessing some mappers might make a neutral room gloomy, kind of like an old attic lighting.
Some might do spotlights, some normal lights, and some gross dark alien rooms.
My conclusion- there will be many different maps with a different, exciting story behind them, just like how mineshaft is a different idea from summit.
Who knows what mappers will come up with. I'm excited!
there could be 3 settings with lights always on on with a power node or on with infestation in the room. maby that is more of what you are thinking that way people have alot more control over the lighting in there map.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited November 2011
my only problem with all of this is:
<i>i didn't know that aliens needed yet another buff / advantage?</i> Aliens wont have to run around at the start of a round and destroy powered rooms so this means quicker set up / harvester times for them which will offset the balance further ; compound this with marines now spending res on power nodes and cory's suggestion of lowering extractor res intake and ...man.. being a marine sounds like you have the odds stacked against you - especially considering infestation takes 3 seconds to build from hive to DC <b><u>without a player physically there</u></b> so this puts development of structures / control of rooms in favor of Aliens in every situation i can think of, both in time and res?
(and the idea of infestation overtaking doors and powernodes etc etc is just going to worsen this balance imo despite how cool the idea is)
i get that artist's want their hard earned work shown.. but the core gameplay is represented by dynamic lighting based on who is controlling what area. Changing the balance in a large way (to the wrong team imho) just because "too much time is spent in the dark" doesn't show their artwork is not the solution. in fact i'd say too much time in the dark would be a further indication of the alien's already existing statistical lead, an example of the balance, right?
idk. i love the new effects and all i just think the logic of uprooting the balance for sake of artwork should not be the fix. if the game was %50 win for each side and perfectly balanced that would mean %50 of the time your artwork is going to be in the dark - sorry this might not be want you want but its a friggin awesome gameplay design still! (shooting in the dark with flashlight trying to nail that skulk in that nook is just amazing gameplay)
<!--quoteo(post=1883631:date=Nov 4 2011, 01:22 AM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Nov 4 2011, 01:22 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1883631"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A neutral room will appear as normally lit, the default lighting the mapper created.
Once a power node has been destroyed, the lights will be off, so it will be easy to tell which rooms had power before, but have been attacked by aliens.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
so aliens won't have the opportunity to darken a room and sort of "claim" it before a power point gets socketed?
makes me want to go and darken up all my rooms. right now, they're lit for "power on"
<!--quoteo(post=1883732:date=Nov 4 2011, 08:02 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Nov 4 2011, 08:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1883732"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->compound this with marines now spending res on power nodes and cory's suggestion of lowering extractor res intake and<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Maybe I wasn't clear, but I didn't mean lowering res intake on extractor, I meant res cost of building an extractor. <!--quoteo(post=1883732:date=Nov 4 2011, 08:02 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Nov 4 2011, 08:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1883732"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i get that artist's want their hard earned work shown.. but the core gameplay is represented by dynamic lighting based on who is controlling what area. Changing the balance in a large way (to the wrong team imho) just because "too much time is spent in the dark" doesn't show their artwork is not the solution. in fact i'd say too much time in the dark would be a further indication of the alien's already existing statistical lead, an example of the balance, right?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It's not just a matter of wanting the artwork to be shown off. We just don't want players spending most of their time on a dark, unlit map. Yes, it makes for some cool gameplay aspects, yes its atmospheric, but competitive multiplayer games do not work well if they are too dark. It's never been something we wanted for either NS1 or NS2.
<!--quoteo(post=1883728:date=Nov 4 2011, 08:36 PM:name=B1ackSmoke)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (B1ackSmoke @ Nov 4 2011, 08:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1883728"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I have come to the conclusion that we are all saying the same thing. Instead of having just one set default for a neutral room, it would be whatever the mapper sets it to be. Then once the power nodes are put in/destroyed it will be light or dark plus whatever effects the mapper wants.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I like the idea of your starting Alien spawn being set to off, however if aliens move around the map and that one get's taken by the marine team it would be nice to be able to re-power it.
I'd look purely for only ON/OFF by default state and that OFF dependency on having an Alien spawn there as a prerequisite.
Invincible power nodes until rines need it. Marines only tend to have 1 base. So what's the point of starting up a node just so aliens can take it down?
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited November 2011
<!--quoteo(post=1883752:date=Nov 4 2011, 02:50 PM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Nov 4 2011, 02:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1883752"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's never been something we wanted for either NS1 or NS2.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
aww, okay. :-/ too bad i really liked that doom 3 esque gameplay mechanic revolving around VERY precise aim and movement while also making strategies based on dynamic world challenges and changed states (i.e. set pieces and lighting), it spices up the plainly lit hallway scenario very well imo.
but its a good thing i really enjoy your artwork - i love the attention in the details! thanks for the response, Cory :)
edit: also, i argue that its not "most" of the time spent in darkness as A) rines use their flashlights unfailingly and that area covered is the area of your eye's focus, covering said artwork. b) aliens, even if using alien vision exclusively in the dark still statistically makes them see lit areas %50 of the time (assuming balanced map conditons) and since they are 1 of 2 teams that makes the experience in the dark (vision or not) only %25 percent total potential experience combined from both sides. this should be acceptable, considering its a major gameplay feature, no?
How about handing unpowered lighting over the the mappers as well then? They could create a set of lighting for power on and power off modes.
Power off could still feature dim-spot lights pointing at random spots on the walls or ceilings, as well as "runway" lighting along the main pathways, etc. It should be possible for the artist to creative some great visual lighting effects without casting much ambient light across the floor where most of the action is taking place.
SewlekThe programmer previously known as SchimmelJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16247Members, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, Subnautica Developer
<!--quoteo(post=1883755:date=Nov 4 2011, 05:55 PM:name=Raneman)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Raneman @ Nov 4 2011, 05:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1883755"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Invincible power nodes until rines need it. Marines only tend to have 1 base. So what's the point of starting up a node just so aliens can take it down?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It does seem odd that you would have dark areas in places that the marines have taken and lost, but if you look past those deeper into alien territory you'd find places that are in neutral mode because the marines have never managed to get far enough in to build there.
Wouldn't it make more sense to have everything neutral unless either 1) there's a marine socket built; or 2) infestation or an alien building is on the power point (with the rooms being light/dark respectively)? That way dark rooms are a clear sign of an alien presence.
In that form you might lose the 'suddenly plunging marine room into darkness' aspect; but you could make it more complex and get past that too:
Aliens and marines both get to claim nodes, as above, making areas light/dark. The marine controlled areas and the alien controlled areas fight over control of the power network itself - the good old nanites vs bacteria battle. Throw in a couple of extra lighting/power states to also have positions between neutral and marine and between neutral and alien to get the following: 1) marine controlled area with no challenge - full power, full lighting 2) either neutral area next to marine controlled area or marine controlled area next to alien area - between full and neutral, so lights occasionally dim, machinery turns off/slows from time to time, turrents might be a bit erratic etc 3) uncontested neutral area - neutral etc
Then if you give each node point an energy reserve and let the commanders direct specific attacks you could have a neutral room plunged into darkness / full lighting, or have the lights come on (to neutral level) in an alien area etc. Whether attacks were successful would depend on the energy on each side (all nodes of the attacker and might need specific countering by the other side's commander. You could even let successful attacks over time damage the other side's power node point structure to disable it and turn the room neutral.
Thiswould be complex but also add an extra element of bias to the side with most map control, eventually allowing a turtled side to be weakened (someone suggested something similar in that context before)
<!--quoteo(post=1883807:date=Nov 5 2011, 07:03 AM:name=SwampRat)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SwampRat @ Nov 5 2011, 07:03 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1883807"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That way dark rooms are a clear sign of an alien presence.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I've said this a few times now, but we aren't looking to have darkness be a sign of an alien presence. Alien territory should be infested, and misty, with ground fog and glowing structures, and probably there will be some post processing color grading for the colors and lighting, the longer an area has been taken over. That is the look and feeling we want for being in alien territory.
The darkness is a sign of an area that is being contested.
<!--quoteo(post=1883856:date=Nov 5 2011, 06:55 PM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Nov 5 2011, 06:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1883856"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I've said this a few times now, but we aren't looking to have darkness be a sign of an alien presence. Alien territory should be infested, and misty, with ground fog and glowing structures, and probably there will be some post processing color grading for the colors and lighting, the longer an area has been taken over. That is the look and feeling we want for being in alien territory.
The darkness is a sign of an area that is being contested.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wow, it amazes me that people havent gotten that into their heads yet..
Total darkness wouldnt make sense for the Khaara tho, since they're not hiding - they're creating a home.
<!--quoteo(post=1883856:date=Nov 5 2011, 01:55 PM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Nov 5 2011, 01:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1883856"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The darkness is a sign of an area that is being contested.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As of now I feel dark areas are a little beyond contested. They definitley give the vibe of an alien advantage.
<!--quoteo(post=1883864:date=Nov 5 2011, 08:49 PM:name=Dank McShwagger)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dank McShwagger @ Nov 5 2011, 08:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1883864"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As of now I feel dark areas are a little beyond contested. They definitley give the vibe of an alien advantage.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If they're lit they are neutral.
With marine structures they're marine controlled.
With creep and alien structures they're alien controlled.
<!--quoteo(post=1883870:date=Nov 5 2011, 04:03 PM:name=konata)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (konata @ Nov 5 2011, 04:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1883870"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If they're lit they are neutral.
With marine structures they're marine controlled.
With creep and alien structures they're alien controlled.
Power node is down it is contested.
I hope that clears things up.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As of now I feel it's more like:
If they're lit they are contested in marine's favor.
With marine structures they're marine controlled.
With creep and alien structures they're alien controlled.
Power node is down it is contested in the khara's favor.
The only areas I would consider neutral are those that don't have power nodes.
Aliens have the advantage in an un-lit room. They can sneak around undetected much easier and have much better night vision than marines do. In a lit room I feel much safer as a marine because I can see without my flashlight.
Build transponder in powernode => neutral + powered structures
No transponder in powernode => neutral + unpowered structures
Destroyed transponder in powernode => (*with or without infestation, darker) dimmed/flicker + unpowered structures
Now we could add infestation*:
Build or unbuild transponder + infestation => dimmed + powered/unpowered structures if you can place on a non-infested place
What neutral for each individual room is, depends on the mapper. So there could be already favoured rooms for marines or aliens in neutral state. Im not sure if we should make infestation even more powerful - only costs <u>energy</u> doesnt need interaction of aliens and gives for free: slow to sprinting marines, free parasite, antibuild, regeneration... and maybe more soon if coupled with some lifeform upgrades.
darkness is only for atmospheric and mood, if you make the game too dark ppl will just play with high gamma settings (at least if on marine side, takes 10s in the driver options, but ruins the sexy looks of the game) because it can get frustrating(current emergency light is on the edge), especially since its a multiplayer competitive fps and not a singleplayer experience.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited November 2011
<!--quoteo(post=1883877:date=Nov 5 2011, 02:35 PM:name=Dank McShwagger)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dank McShwagger @ Nov 5 2011, 02:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1883877"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Aliens have the advantage in an un-lit room. They can sneak around undetected much easier and have much better night vision than marines do. In a lit room I feel much safer as a marine because I can see without my flashlight.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
^ This.
and this is why a "contested" area aka neutral as Cory describes being dark makes no sense to me. as an alien you rely on the dark. (Alien vision?!) it seems biased and unbalanced, in favor of aliens in contested areas. <u><b>Why should an alien have more of an advantage in a contested area than he has in a well fortified base??</b></u>
i dont get the recent straying from darkness - its been such an integral part of gameplay up to now. (and wasn't the engine designed with this mechanic in mind?)
<!--quoteo(post=1883856:date=Nov 5 2011, 10:55 AM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Nov 5 2011, 10:55 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1883856"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I've said this a few times now, but we aren't looking to have darkness be a sign of an alien presence.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
then why have the lights gone out when an alien destroys a powernode? or are you saying this is now a new direction the game is taking?
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
<!--quoteo(post=1883880:date=Nov 5 2011, 03:31 PM:name=Koruyo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Koruyo @ Nov 5 2011, 03:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1883880"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->darkness is only for atmospheric and mood,<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
idk what natural selection you play .. but darkness is a clear advantage for aliens and is definitely a gameplay mechanic / strategy
It is an advantage, but if you make it too good (its on the edge right now)
Pll will just use gamma of over 9000 to nullify this mechanic => darkness shouldnt be a important gameplay mechanic. And no, ns2 wasnt designed as a wannabe splintercell.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
ppl do that anyways. just look at COD, bright maps and gamma manipulating still occured widespread. best you can do is make it a bonus and not detrimental, as it is now just like you mentioned. besides, isnt there a punkbuster method or something for checking abuse of gamma?
I think i dont want to talk about this anymore after an argument like - ppl do it anyways.
As long as it doesnt get any darker than what i see on summit + sometimes emergency lights(could be a little bit brighter - but well see how that changes after dimming instead of red lights) im fine and dont have to change gamma.
<!--quoteo(post=1883884:date=Nov 6 2011, 12:54 AM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Nov 6 2011, 12:54 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1883884"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->besides, isnt there a punkbuster method or something for checking abuse of gamma?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
ATI/Nvidia settings allow you to change colour and can not be used by cheat programs to prove any abuse.
NS1 is bright as it is and I play with heightened gamma. I'd do so in NS2 too.
I don't think alien controlled rooms should be dark, but they shouldn't have actual lights in there room but be lit by infestation. Maybe it should be up to the mapper but wouldn't it on some maps make more sense if it was only the marine start that was powered from the start? That would make all rooms "contested" until either marine grabbed control by building a power node or alien by spreading creep. Maybe it would make the maps too dark in the beginning of the game but I feel it would make more sense.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
all i'll say is: there are many cheat programs out there that are undetectable or updated often (ANY popular FPS) that allow you to change all sorts of textures and models for an advantage. changing game textures / game designs based on this info instead of anti cheat measures or just understanding there's always gonna be that 10% .. is costly, limiting, and impractical? you can mitigate the average user's settings by implementing an ingame handicap should they go that route, i.e. making the HUD washed out easily etc.
in any case, if this game goes that route i see myself making a lighting mod down the road that maintains that sort of gameplay... would be a shame imo to lose those fun moments firing in the pitch dark with a flashlight or sitting in a dark dark corner waiting as a skulk.
<!--quoteo(post=1883631:date=Nov 4 2011, 01:22 AM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Nov 4 2011, 01:22 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1883631"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Once a power node has been destroyed, the lights will be off, so it will be easy to tell which rooms had power before, but have been attacked by aliens.
Hope that clears some questions up.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1883856:date=Nov 5 2011, 12:55 PM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Nov 5 2011, 12:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1883856"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I've said this a few times now, but we aren't looking to have darkness be a sign of an alien presence. Alien territory should be infested, and misty, with ground fog and glowing structures, and probably there will be some post processing color grading for the colors and lighting, the longer an area has been taken over. That is the look and feeling we want for being in alien territory.
The darkness is a sign of an area that is being contested.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Is the point that was missed from the earlier comments that the power goes off then the power node is destroyed - after say 10 seconds it restores up to the standard level? A number of the earlier posts (including/especially by devs) seemed to indicate that you weren't talking about a temporary effect of the power going out and/or were thinking there'd be relatively little difference between 'neutral' and marine held areas.
If what is meant is that "mappers will make 1) marine held 'bright' lighting settings, 2) alien held / neutral 'atmospheric'/dim/bright with lots of shadows/<b>whatever they, as mapper, wants</b>, 3) the dark setting that gets used briefly when a node goes down" then that seems all very sensible.
Having a room that was once contested being more favourable to aliens than others is daft, as is a room where something was built and destroyed being different to one where nothing was built.
I quite liked the idea of commanders sort of directly fighting with power grid control - but how about as a smaller change, give the alien commander an ability (possibly via shade or other building to be put on a node) to temporarily crash the lighting system in alien controlled areas. Give the aliens the ability to turn the lights off in the middle of a marine attack, so as to get to use the 'dark' setting a bit more (if it's only a brief effect) and let the aliens have some light advantage when they want (with reasonable cooldown).
I was about to hit back on the "you idiot, you don't listen" vibe with a complaint about the minimum spec being a big fat fraudulent lie - but I couldn't see it any more so either I've forgotten where it is or UWE has finally decided not to have something so clearly misleading up. Which is nice.
Comments
One of the reasons for having the neutral state as well as the active and destroyed states is so that the maps spend more time in the default, mapper-created lighting conditions. It doesn't make a lot of sense for us to spend ages creating awesome, atmospheric lighting arrangements only for them to be turned off for the majority of a game.
I think the idea is that the mapper's default lighting needs to be neutrally balanced for both sides. Normally a mapper sets up the lighting in a room to be mostly illuminated to show off the space and the geometric design. The problem with this practice is that it makes the neutral spaces of the map favor marines by having fewer ambush opportunities created by shadows. The desire I and many others seem to have is to make the neutral lighting state be more contrasting and dramatic. This can still be very beautiful and show off the mapper's creation, but leaves some darker corner's and a bit of spookiness.
I envision making the neutral lighting of the map have more character and reflecting the dis-used, derelict impression that these environments should have. This will be a balance between dark & foreboding vs bright and inviting. It will also give both sides the thrill of affecting the lighting in their territory.
I really believe the control of environmental lighting as part of the strategy of the two sides is a great feature for NS2. I understand the concerns of the mappers that don't want the maps to be played mostly in the dark. But a balance can be found. That balance even allows for interesting (non-standard) lighting ideas and techniques to be used by mappers. There are now 3 different lighting setups that mappers can create. Embrace the freedom and opportunity of that. Don't limit the atmosphere of the map to lit or unlit.
This is just my ramblings - thanks for reading.
Instead of having just one set default for a neutral room, it would be whatever the mapper sets it to be.
Then once the power nodes are put in/destroyed it will be light or dark plus whatever effects the mapper wants.
I'm guessing some mappers might make a neutral room gloomy, kind of like an old attic lighting.
<img src="http://www.opacity.us/images/db/30/65/0000002224.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Some might do spotlights, some normal lights, and some gross dark alien rooms.
My conclusion- there will be many different maps with a different, exciting story behind them, just like how mineshaft is a different idea from summit.
Who knows what mappers will come up with. I'm excited!
-B1ackSmoke
<i>i didn't know that aliens needed yet another buff / advantage?</i>
Aliens wont have to run around at the start of a round and destroy powered rooms so this means quicker set up / harvester times for them which will offset the balance further ; compound this with marines now spending res on power nodes and cory's suggestion of lowering extractor res intake and ...man.. being a marine sounds like you have the odds stacked against you - especially considering infestation takes 3 seconds to build from hive to DC <b><u>without a player physically there</u></b> so this puts development of structures / control of rooms in favor of Aliens in every situation i can think of, both in time and res?
(and the idea of infestation overtaking doors and powernodes etc etc is just going to worsen this balance imo despite how cool the idea is)
i get that artist's want their hard earned work shown.. but the core gameplay is represented by dynamic lighting based on who is controlling what area. Changing the balance in a large way (to the wrong team imho) just because "too much time is spent in the dark" doesn't show their artwork is not the solution. in fact i'd say too much time in the dark would be a further indication of the alien's already existing statistical lead, an example of the balance, right?
idk. i love the new effects and all i just think the logic of uprooting the balance for sake of artwork should not be the fix. if the game was %50 win for each side and perfectly balanced that would mean %50 of the time your artwork is going to be in the dark - sorry this might not be want you want but its a friggin awesome gameplay design still! (shooting in the dark with flashlight trying to nail that skulk in that nook is just amazing gameplay)
respectfully, my two cents :)
Once a power node has been destroyed, the lights will be off, so it will be easy to tell which rooms had power before, but have been attacked by aliens.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
so aliens won't have the opportunity to darken a room and sort of "claim" it before a power point gets socketed?
makes me want to go and darken up all my rooms. right now, they're lit for "power on"
Maybe I wasn't clear, but I didn't mean lowering res intake on extractor, I meant res cost of building an extractor.
<!--quoteo(post=1883732:date=Nov 4 2011, 08:02 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Nov 4 2011, 08:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1883732"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i get that artist's want their hard earned work shown.. but the core gameplay is represented by dynamic lighting based on who is controlling what area. Changing the balance in a large way (to the wrong team imho) just because "too much time is spent in the dark" doesn't show their artwork is not the solution. in fact i'd say too much time in the dark would be a further indication of the alien's already existing statistical lead, an example of the balance, right?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's not just a matter of wanting the artwork to be shown off. We just don't want players spending most of their time on a dark, unlit map. Yes, it makes for some cool gameplay aspects, yes its atmospheric, but competitive multiplayer games do not work well if they are too dark. It's never been something we wanted for either NS1 or NS2.
--Cory
Instead of having just one set default for a neutral room, it would be whatever the mapper sets it to be.
Then once the power nodes are put in/destroyed it will be light or dark plus whatever effects the mapper wants.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I like the idea of your starting Alien spawn being set to off, however if aliens move around the map and that one get's taken by the marine team it would be nice to be able to re-power it.
I'd look purely for only ON/OFF by default state and that OFF dependency on having an Alien spawn there as a prerequisite.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
aww, okay. :-/
too bad i really liked that doom 3 esque gameplay mechanic revolving around VERY precise aim and movement while also making strategies based on dynamic world challenges and changed states (i.e. set pieces and lighting), it spices up the plainly lit hallway scenario very well imo.
but its a good thing i really enjoy your artwork - i love the attention in the details!
thanks for the response, Cory
:)
edit:
also, i argue that its not "most" of the time spent in darkness as A) rines use their flashlights unfailingly and that area covered is the area of your eye's focus, covering said artwork. b) aliens, even if using alien vision exclusively in the dark still statistically makes them see lit areas %50 of the time (assuming balanced map conditons) and since they are 1 of 2 teams that makes the experience in the dark (vision or not) only %25 percent total potential experience combined from both sides. this should be acceptable, considering its a major gameplay feature, no?
Power off could still feature dim-spot lights pointing at random spots on the walls or ceilings, as well as "runway" lighting along the main pathways, etc. It should be possible for the artist to creative some great visual lighting effects without casting much ambient light across the floor where most of the action is taking place.
whats to point to join a game when you lose it?
Wouldn't it make more sense to have everything neutral unless either 1) there's a marine socket built; or 2) infestation or an alien building is on the power point (with the rooms being light/dark respectively)?
That way dark rooms are a clear sign of an alien presence.
In that form you might lose the 'suddenly plunging marine room into darkness' aspect; but you could make it more complex and get past that too:
Aliens and marines both get to claim nodes, as above, making areas light/dark. The marine controlled areas and the alien controlled areas fight over control of the power network itself - the good old nanites vs bacteria battle. Throw in a couple of extra lighting/power states to also have positions between neutral and marine and between neutral and alien to get the following:
1) marine controlled area with no challenge - full power, full lighting
2) either neutral area next to marine controlled area or marine controlled area next to alien area - between full and neutral, so lights occasionally dim, machinery turns off/slows from time to time, turrents might be a bit erratic etc
3) uncontested neutral area - neutral
etc
Then if you give each node point an energy reserve and let the commanders direct specific attacks you could have a neutral room plunged into darkness / full lighting, or have the lights come on (to neutral level) in an alien area etc. Whether attacks were successful would depend on the energy on each side (all nodes of the attacker and might need specific countering by the other side's commander. You could even let successful attacks over time damage the other side's power node point structure to disable it and turn the room neutral.
Thiswould be complex but also add an extra element of bias to the side with most map control, eventually allowing a turtled side to be weakened (someone suggested something similar in that context before)
I've said this a few times now, but we aren't looking to have darkness be a sign of an alien presence. Alien territory should be infested, and misty, with ground fog and glowing structures, and probably there will be some post processing color grading for the colors and lighting, the longer an area has been taken over. That is the look and feeling we want for being in alien territory.
The darkness is a sign of an area that is being contested.
--Cory
The darkness is a sign of an area that is being contested.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wow, it amazes me that people havent gotten that into their heads yet..
Total darkness wouldnt make sense for the Khaara tho, since they're not hiding - they're creating a home.
As of now I feel dark areas are a little beyond contested. They definitley give the vibe of an alien advantage.
If they're lit they are neutral.
With marine structures they're marine controlled.
With creep and alien structures they're alien controlled.
Power node is down it is contested.
I hope that clears things up.
With marine structures they're marine controlled.
With creep and alien structures they're alien controlled.
Power node is down it is contested.
I hope that clears things up.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As of now I feel it's more like:
If they're lit they are contested in marine's favor.
With marine structures they're marine controlled.
With creep and alien structures they're alien controlled.
Power node is down it is contested in the khara's favor.
The only areas I would consider neutral are those that don't have power nodes.
Aliens have the advantage in an un-lit room. They can sneak around undetected much easier and have much better night vision than marines do.
In a lit room I feel much safer as a marine because I can see without my flashlight.
No transponder in powernode => neutral + unpowered structures
Destroyed transponder in powernode => (*with or without infestation, darker) dimmed/flicker + unpowered structures
Now we could add infestation*:
Build or unbuild transponder + infestation => dimmed + powered/unpowered structures if you can place on a non-infested place
What neutral for each individual room is, depends on the mapper. So there could be already favoured rooms for marines or aliens in neutral state.
Im not sure if we should make infestation even more powerful - only costs <u>energy</u> doesnt need interaction of aliens and gives for free: slow to sprinting marines, free parasite, antibuild, regeneration... and maybe more soon if coupled with some lifeform upgrades.
darkness is only for atmospheric and mood, if you make the game too dark ppl will just play with high gamma settings (at least if on marine side, takes 10s in the driver options, but ruins the sexy looks of the game) because it can get frustrating(current emergency light is on the edge), especially since its a multiplayer competitive fps and not a singleplayer experience.
In a lit room I feel much safer as a marine because I can see without my flashlight.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
^ This.
and this is why a "contested" area aka neutral as Cory describes being dark makes no sense to me. as an alien you rely on the dark. (Alien vision?!)
it seems biased and unbalanced, in favor of aliens in contested areas. <u><b>Why should an alien have more of an advantage in a contested area than he has in a well fortified base??</b></u>
i dont get the recent straying from darkness - its been such an integral part of gameplay up to now. (and wasn't the engine designed with this mechanic in mind?)
should be:
dark (only light sources from alien structures) = alien controlled
neutral (moody default lighting) = neutral
brightly lit = marine controlled.
<!--quoteo(post=1883856:date=Nov 5 2011, 10:55 AM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Nov 5 2011, 10:55 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1883856"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I've said this a few times now, but we aren't looking to have darkness be a sign of an alien presence.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
then why have the lights gone out when an alien destroys a powernode? or are you saying this is now a new direction the game is taking?
idk what natural selection you play ..
but darkness is a clear advantage for aliens and is definitely a gameplay mechanic / strategy
Pll will just use gamma of over 9000 to nullify this mechanic => darkness shouldnt be a important gameplay mechanic.
And no, ns2 wasnt designed as a wannabe splintercell.
besides, isnt there a punkbuster method or something for checking abuse of gamma?
As long as it doesnt get any darker than what i see on summit + sometimes emergency lights(could be a little bit brighter - but well see how that changes after dimming instead of red lights) im fine and dont have to change gamma.
PS: NS2 = Steam = VAC.
ATI/Nvidia settings allow you to change colour and can not be used by cheat programs to prove any abuse.
NS1 is bright as it is and I play with heightened gamma. I'd do so in NS2 too.
in any case, if this game goes that route i see myself making a lighting mod down the road that maintains that sort of gameplay... would be a shame imo to lose those fun moments firing in the pitch dark with a flashlight or sitting in a dark dark corner waiting as a skulk.
Hope that clears some questions up.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1883856:date=Nov 5 2011, 12:55 PM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Nov 5 2011, 12:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1883856"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I've said this a few times now, but we aren't looking to have darkness be a sign of an alien presence. Alien territory should be infested, and misty, with ground fog and glowing structures, and probably there will be some post processing color grading for the colors and lighting, the longer an area has been taken over. That is the look and feeling we want for being in alien territory.
The darkness is a sign of an area that is being contested.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Is the point that was missed from the earlier comments that the power goes off then the power node is destroyed - after say 10 seconds it restores up to the standard level? A number of the earlier posts (including/especially by devs) seemed to indicate that you weren't talking about a temporary effect of the power going out and/or were thinking there'd be relatively little difference between 'neutral' and marine held areas.
If what is meant is that "mappers will make 1) marine held 'bright' lighting settings, 2) alien held / neutral 'atmospheric'/dim/bright with lots of shadows/<b>whatever they, as mapper, wants</b>, 3) the dark setting that gets used briefly when a node goes down" then that seems all very sensible.
Having a room that was once contested being more favourable to aliens than others is daft, as is a room where something was built and destroyed being different to one where nothing was built.
I quite liked the idea of commanders sort of directly fighting with power grid control - but how about as a smaller change, give the alien commander an ability (possibly via shade or other building to be put on a node) to temporarily crash the lighting system in alien controlled areas. Give the aliens the ability to turn the lights off in the middle of a marine attack, so as to get to use the 'dark' setting a bit more (if it's only a brief effect) and let the aliens have some light advantage when they want (with reasonable cooldown).
I was about to hit back on the "you idiot, you don't listen" vibe with a complaint about the minimum spec being a big fat fraudulent lie - but I couldn't see it any more so either I've forgotten where it is or UWE has finally decided not to have something so clearly misleading up. Which is nice.