NO TEAM RES!
BamBam!
Join Date: 2011-06-15 Member: 104527Members
Join Date: 2011-06-15 Member: 104527Members
<div class="IPBDescription">If Creeper World and NS2 had a baby</div>None of the following ideas are my own; they’ve all been blatantly stolen from this game:
<a href="http://knucklecracker.com/creeperworld/web/play.php" target="_blank">http://knucklecracker.com/creeperworld/web/play.php</a>
Creeper World (CW)
I was playing it recently and I found some uncanny similarities to NS2. I’m not going to explain the game here because that would take too long (I‘m at work and ALT+Tabbing every five seconds so that my boss doesn’t see me writing about aliens and hives is a tense affair) So go play it. But note the following as you play:
CW collectors = NS2 Cysts,
CW Odin City (your main base) = NS2 Hive,
CW Blasters = NS2 Other structures, whips, hydras etc.
Did you play it? Wasn’t it fun? Yes should be your answer here, because it’s a great little game. It requires you to balance energy flow (income versus expenditure) with true opportunity costs. It’s challenging, strategic and fun – something in my own opinion that alien com is currently not. For instance in CW if you choose to invest heavily in both extending your network and upgrading at the same time you suffer for it – you’ll get an energy deficit and they’ll both take ages to acquire. I’d really like to see NS2 alien com be a true game within a game.
So the first CW inspired suggestion – There is no team res. Boom! I threw it out there.
Resource nodes would provide personal resources only for the evolution and personal upgrade of life forms. I fail to see the benefit of the current model – both Hive energy and Team resources. Make it so there is solely Hive energy available for building, upgrading, maintenance and expansionary needs. It has a much more synergistic/hivemind feel to it.
Cysts (CW collectors) and their associated infestation bring in Hive energy; the more you have the more energy you gain per period of time. All of a sudden infestation provides more than a building platform/healer. So if Hives and infestation are your income here’s your inevitable taxes...
1. Building structures drain your energy. This includes cysts as that is where the opportunity cost of expansion lies. Structures would take time to build as the required hive energy is transferred along the network from the Hive to the structure – very much like in CW. It would also be nice if the lines between collectors in CW were the tendrils in NS2 and you could physically see Hive energy flowing through them to the building in need. With team resources gone, dropping a new hive would also have to cost hive energy, although it would also require a cyst chain up to the new hive to allow energy from the original one to get to it. I’ll think about that...maybe create a hive drifter which costs the full amount of a hive and if killed on route would lose you all that hive energy!!! Perhaps too unfair on aliens that idea, unless it was controllable by a player via fps view to sneak it’s way to the desired location. Imagine the pressure! (and potential for a new life form – builder bug anyone?) Food for thought there. Anyway I digress.
2. Upgrades cost hive energy. They too require energy to flow from the hive through the tendrils and cysts to the upgrading building in question. If the link is broken, they remain at their current upgrade percentage until the network is connected again and Hive energy can continue to flow to it.
3. Maintenance of structures is now a burden to hive energy. This includes hydras shooting, whips whipping, shades cloaking, crags healing etc. I’d even go as far as to suggest that resource towers that are collecting personal res make a demand on hive energy. For example x amount of hive energy per min. Also health regeneration for life forms when on infestation (when properly implemented) could cost hive energy. This could see cysts having a stock of energy which is drained upon health regeneration and replenished via the hive.
So there’s your income v expenditure dilemma. Creating the numbers behind it all (eg cyst income rate, res tower cost per min) is the tricky part (and devising winning strategies the fun part). I’m no mathmagician but I’ve been messing about in excel working with various cost and income rates and trying various alien strategies (fast hive drop, early upgrades etc) to see how timing and over expanding affects the economic balance over time. It’s basic stuff and nothing someone more knowledgeable of the intricacies of the game couldn’t devise and balance in a short time. It’s quite interesting to see how upgrading both melee and armour simultaneously in the early game affects your hydras ability to maintain their attacks or your res towers to pump out p.res for your team.
<b>Other potential structures this concept could incorporate (straight for CW):</b>
<b>CW Relay</b> – These could be tendrils without any infestation around them, similar to Charlie’s processing idea of long and thin cysts chains. Perhaps they could be used for hive drops to supply the building hive with energy for times where no cyst chain already exists. These would offer no other benefits (no infestation, therefore no income or healing) they would only allow for energy to be passed to the hive being built. Possibly used exclusively for hive drops so as to avoid exploiting and hydra spamming outside Marine start early game.
<b>CW Speed drivers</b> (the red diamonds) - These could be a structure with a similar purpose in NS2 as they have on CW. These would speed up the flow of energy along tendrils (not quickening the energy acquisition rate).
Quick side notes:
Unconnected cysts and structures would not die. They would simply fail to operate. So your hydras and res towers would not work, nor would the cysts that are unconnected to the hive supply you with hive energy until reconnected.
I’ve not really thought about the gorges role in all of this...I’m sure a use for the little fella could be found.
Is it all too complicated? In CW the graphics are simplistic and you can see the whole map which makes macro management a simple affair. Would someone new to the game be able to pick it up?
How this would affect the Marines? Again I’ve not thought about this too much but ideally you make the overall progress and expansion rate of the aliens similar to what it is now except it is more of a strategical challenge to get there.
Would the guys over at Creeper World be a little bit angry?
Okay I’m stopping now, must do work! I’m sure very little of all that makes sense because it’s rushed but if you’ve played Creeper World you’ll know what I mean.
Edit: Made the wording a little clearer in parts
<a href="http://knucklecracker.com/creeperworld/web/play.php" target="_blank">http://knucklecracker.com/creeperworld/web/play.php</a>
Creeper World (CW)
I was playing it recently and I found some uncanny similarities to NS2. I’m not going to explain the game here because that would take too long (I‘m at work and ALT+Tabbing every five seconds so that my boss doesn’t see me writing about aliens and hives is a tense affair) So go play it. But note the following as you play:
CW collectors = NS2 Cysts,
CW Odin City (your main base) = NS2 Hive,
CW Blasters = NS2 Other structures, whips, hydras etc.
Did you play it? Wasn’t it fun? Yes should be your answer here, because it’s a great little game. It requires you to balance energy flow (income versus expenditure) with true opportunity costs. It’s challenging, strategic and fun – something in my own opinion that alien com is currently not. For instance in CW if you choose to invest heavily in both extending your network and upgrading at the same time you suffer for it – you’ll get an energy deficit and they’ll both take ages to acquire. I’d really like to see NS2 alien com be a true game within a game.
So the first CW inspired suggestion – There is no team res. Boom! I threw it out there.
Resource nodes would provide personal resources only for the evolution and personal upgrade of life forms. I fail to see the benefit of the current model – both Hive energy and Team resources. Make it so there is solely Hive energy available for building, upgrading, maintenance and expansionary needs. It has a much more synergistic/hivemind feel to it.
Cysts (CW collectors) and their associated infestation bring in Hive energy; the more you have the more energy you gain per period of time. All of a sudden infestation provides more than a building platform/healer. So if Hives and infestation are your income here’s your inevitable taxes...
1. Building structures drain your energy. This includes cysts as that is where the opportunity cost of expansion lies. Structures would take time to build as the required hive energy is transferred along the network from the Hive to the structure – very much like in CW. It would also be nice if the lines between collectors in CW were the tendrils in NS2 and you could physically see Hive energy flowing through them to the building in need. With team resources gone, dropping a new hive would also have to cost hive energy, although it would also require a cyst chain up to the new hive to allow energy from the original one to get to it. I’ll think about that...maybe create a hive drifter which costs the full amount of a hive and if killed on route would lose you all that hive energy!!! Perhaps too unfair on aliens that idea, unless it was controllable by a player via fps view to sneak it’s way to the desired location. Imagine the pressure! (and potential for a new life form – builder bug anyone?) Food for thought there. Anyway I digress.
2. Upgrades cost hive energy. They too require energy to flow from the hive through the tendrils and cysts to the upgrading building in question. If the link is broken, they remain at their current upgrade percentage until the network is connected again and Hive energy can continue to flow to it.
3. Maintenance of structures is now a burden to hive energy. This includes hydras shooting, whips whipping, shades cloaking, crags healing etc. I’d even go as far as to suggest that resource towers that are collecting personal res make a demand on hive energy. For example x amount of hive energy per min. Also health regeneration for life forms when on infestation (when properly implemented) could cost hive energy. This could see cysts having a stock of energy which is drained upon health regeneration and replenished via the hive.
So there’s your income v expenditure dilemma. Creating the numbers behind it all (eg cyst income rate, res tower cost per min) is the tricky part (and devising winning strategies the fun part). I’m no mathmagician but I’ve been messing about in excel working with various cost and income rates and trying various alien strategies (fast hive drop, early upgrades etc) to see how timing and over expanding affects the economic balance over time. It’s basic stuff and nothing someone more knowledgeable of the intricacies of the game couldn’t devise and balance in a short time. It’s quite interesting to see how upgrading both melee and armour simultaneously in the early game affects your hydras ability to maintain their attacks or your res towers to pump out p.res for your team.
<b>Other potential structures this concept could incorporate (straight for CW):</b>
<b>CW Relay</b> – These could be tendrils without any infestation around them, similar to Charlie’s processing idea of long and thin cysts chains. Perhaps they could be used for hive drops to supply the building hive with energy for times where no cyst chain already exists. These would offer no other benefits (no infestation, therefore no income or healing) they would only allow for energy to be passed to the hive being built. Possibly used exclusively for hive drops so as to avoid exploiting and hydra spamming outside Marine start early game.
<b>CW Speed drivers</b> (the red diamonds) - These could be a structure with a similar purpose in NS2 as they have on CW. These would speed up the flow of energy along tendrils (not quickening the energy acquisition rate).
Quick side notes:
Unconnected cysts and structures would not die. They would simply fail to operate. So your hydras and res towers would not work, nor would the cysts that are unconnected to the hive supply you with hive energy until reconnected.
I’ve not really thought about the gorges role in all of this...I’m sure a use for the little fella could be found.
Is it all too complicated? In CW the graphics are simplistic and you can see the whole map which makes macro management a simple affair. Would someone new to the game be able to pick it up?
How this would affect the Marines? Again I’ve not thought about this too much but ideally you make the overall progress and expansion rate of the aliens similar to what it is now except it is more of a strategical challenge to get there.
Would the guys over at Creeper World be a little bit angry?
Okay I’m stopping now, must do work! I’m sure very little of all that makes sense because it’s rushed but if you’ve played Creeper World you’ll know what I mean.
Edit: Made the wording a little clearer in parts
Comments
I believe that tieing more things to resources, like umbra, fury, beacon etc. would help the game alot.
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=115515" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=115515</a>
If anyone here played supreme commander, you'll know exactly what I mean. However, it wouldn't be as complex since it would run on one resource, TRes.
I think it would help differentiate between marines and aliens command styles.
Marines expand a little slower because they have to save up and store res before they can build something.
Aliens expand faster because they can build right away, but they have to continually "feed" their infrastructure since it is living.
I disagree with swalk's disagreement about this idea..
There is a huge difference between how energy is used here vs energy is used currently
1. There is only 1 pool.
2. The income to this pool is tied down to how much infestation you have. This is quite similar to how much res nodes you have (ie, Map control)
3. There is a 'drain' on any building you build, as well as any actions taken. This one is quite similar to some power grid idea that someone else already suggested (in relation to power node implementation)
*Another note to expand on why you can't abuse the energy income buildings. In CW, each collector gathers energy from surrounding area. If you try to put too many collectors in the same area, you will not actually get any extra energy from them. Similar to this suggested idea, the energy income rate should be tied to infestation area as opposed to cysts.
In essense, what is being suggest will create the following
Marines 'resource' is all about res nodes. Maintaining map control is secondary and mostly stop aliens from expanding.
Aliens 'resource' is all about infestation. Controlling particular res nodes is secondary and mostly to stop marines from getting that res.
Potentially you will end up with 2 teams which have different 'goals' to aim to increase their income.
On that note though. The 'drain' on energy idea proposed here should also include a 'drain' on marine resources (ie turrets? armoury healing?) to make things a bit more balanced.
Further to this idea have a think about this:
Each 'area' you control will give you enough income to support x number of buildings. You can either use it to defend this particular area, or keep some places weaker while reinforcing the 'frontlines'.
This will also limit 'spam' of any kind.
Similarly for Marines, if they had a resource drain, then their turrets and other buildings will also be limited.
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=115506" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=115506</a>
check it out.
But yeah, I like this idea as a sort of aliens power alternative, it's not symetrical, and the gameplay required to make it work is different to powernodes(Since you can build cysts everywherE), but it's also symetrical enough to consider the idea balanced.
I suppose I should actually read your idea... *some time later* alright, so you basically want to implement creeper world's gameplay mechanics as the alien commanders gameplay mechanics... It would definitely work, and make placing infestation, fun, addictive, interesting, and analogue(which is what charlie wants I believe).
and to swalk: the original poster did not say no RESOURCES, he is proposing a different resource system.
This whole idea of pretty much stealing creeper world's mechanics, tweaking them slightly, then shoving them in... would work, very well, and I would enjoy being a commander if this were the case.... fail, his inbox is full. oh well, maybe I'll make some noise in the general discussion area.
hell, I'm going to pm uwe and tell them to play creeper world and link them to your idea... right now.
I like your idea with incorporating the DI into the resource model, although your exact suggestions was tl;dr to me. I still think stuff should cost resources as it is a good restriction to how much you can create, but the DI res could instead be used for stuff like upkeep, as you know structures currently take damage out of DI, how about if their regen rate also depended on this cyst energy, if to many structures was placed around the same cyst, it would not be able to provide nourishment for all, and they would maybe even slowly die!
This would solve the problem with to many structures in the same area, as I assume 2 cysts placed so they cover nearly exactly the same area would not give twice the "energy". I dont think it should be a global energy though, better if the structures get "tied" with nearby cysts, which distribute energy evenly to those structures.
It would however give birth to a new way for gorges to grief by spamming hydras to kill the harvester in the same room...
This CW concept allows for spamming. Commanders have the ability to do what they like, no build limits (it seems somewhat 'unnatural' to limit organic structures to me anyway) however the beauty of the system is that it self regulates against spamming. I'll use an example:
You want drop a fast 2nd hive and whilst its building you surround it with tons of hydras and crags to stop it dying. Early game marines are going to have a very hard time taking this down. So by spamming that fast and protected hive you have heavily increased its survival rate but there are consequences...
1. Your 1st hive will have to spread its available energy per minute out over a larger number of other structures. Meaning the hive will take much longer to receive its full amount of 'build' energy before it is complete.
2. You do this at the expense of expanding your territory. You'll have a small and weak cyst chain, meaning little energy income and little P.Res income for your team.
The outcome: Yes you'll have a near guaranteed second hive, but it will take ages to build and when it finally does complete you're economy will be shattered by the low-income/ high-expenditure network you have created. Your team will lack the P.res to utilise the advantages of the 2nd hive, you'll have minimal upgrades and the marines will most likely have gained the upper hand in map control and upgrades.
Feel free to spam, but be prepared to feel the wraith of the Hivemind! lol
If you play a well balanced strategy you will have a average expansion and upgrade rate. If you choose to be aggressive in a certain area (upgrades, map control, early hive); you will be weaker in others. Just be sure that your strategy prepares for that.
So bearing all that in mind, I think the second part of your sentence resolves the first. i.e upkeep in itself restricts spam of structures. (if the maths behind it are finely tuned that is)
edit: I just re-read and for clarity's sake there would be an initial outlay cost of energy for all structures (build cost) but it would come from the same energy pool. So the one thing that you couldn't go and spam is Hives. *shoots self in foot* Their initial outlay would be too high to go and build 4 hives simultaneously or even 2 in the early game.
This idea is suggesting we take the Creeper World gameplay(structure building, linking, maintaining, resource gathering etc), and put it on the alien team. Then, tweak some values to make it work for ns2.
Also, I agree with the idea, I think it would make aliens very interesting to command as.
DI (map/area control) = Resource (Hive energy)
Resource upkeep/drain (Buildlings require 'hive energy' to stay alive + use its abilities)
The main points of the power grid idea are:
PowerNodes providing an alternative resource (Forgot what it's called, Power?)
Resource upkeep/drain (Buildings require this 'power' to stay activated + use of abilities)
This 'resource' can be attacked and destroyed
Swalks idea of commander ability costing resources are:
Resource upkeep/drain (Beacon, Scan, Nanoshield etc all required resource)
Please tell me if I havn't noticed a similar suggestion popping out