Fade Secondary Attack
Ohnojojo
Join Date: 2011-08-01 Member: 113400Members
Join Date: 2011-08-01 Member: 113400Members
<div class="IPBDescription">What would you like to see?</div>There may already be a thread for this, I can't find it though.
What do people think of the Fade's Sniping Swipe attack?
What would you like to see instead? Brainstorm or just give your two cents.
I loved the NS1 Fade's arsenal personally. Swipe, Blink, Metabolize, Acid Rocket.
Though I do like NS2's Blink mechanic better, I would like to see momentum conserved, but that' an issue for a whole different thread which already exists. And metabolize is being worked on right now I believe.
The combination of NS1 metabolize and conserving momentum would make the fade faster and much more of a better hit and run class, while conserved momentum would intuitively make players remain in blink mode less, and thus more vulnerable.
Fade's were in NS1 a counter to Jetpacks. While heavies with HMG's took way too many hits for a single fade to really be very effective. I wonder how NS2 will address this. The current blink mechanic might make Jetpackers very difficult for a Fade to handle and Heavies, potentially worse.
I can't really think of an appropriate alt attack for Fade's primary swipe, but the sniper swipe feels too much like focus in NS1, except that NS1 increased the delay between attacks, while NS2's Fade Sniper Swipe has a charging time. Which I think is a good idea, otherwise people would just use Sniper Swipe rather than regular attack.
The more I think about it, the more I miss acid rocket. But that could just be because I'm fanboying over NS1 and the fact that I put more hours into NS1 than any other game combined.
random story: Parents thought I was watching pron for a second, when I was being digested by an onos.
What do people think of the Fade's Sniping Swipe attack?
What would you like to see instead? Brainstorm or just give your two cents.
I loved the NS1 Fade's arsenal personally. Swipe, Blink, Metabolize, Acid Rocket.
Though I do like NS2's Blink mechanic better, I would like to see momentum conserved, but that' an issue for a whole different thread which already exists. And metabolize is being worked on right now I believe.
The combination of NS1 metabolize and conserving momentum would make the fade faster and much more of a better hit and run class, while conserved momentum would intuitively make players remain in blink mode less, and thus more vulnerable.
Fade's were in NS1 a counter to Jetpacks. While heavies with HMG's took way too many hits for a single fade to really be very effective. I wonder how NS2 will address this. The current blink mechanic might make Jetpackers very difficult for a Fade to handle and Heavies, potentially worse.
I can't really think of an appropriate alt attack for Fade's primary swipe, but the sniper swipe feels too much like focus in NS1, except that NS1 increased the delay between attacks, while NS2's Fade Sniper Swipe has a charging time. Which I think is a good idea, otherwise people would just use Sniper Swipe rather than regular attack.
The more I think about it, the more I miss acid rocket. But that could just be because I'm fanboying over NS1 and the fact that I put more hours into NS1 than any other game combined.
random story: Parents thought I was watching pron for a second, when I was being digested by an onos.
Comments
First Implement JP, Onos, and Heavies
then decide what the fade is missing.
you can idea munch all you want but this will occur anyways if the JP and Heavy are deemed OP.
Then the fade might need something really new or odd to compensate.
Fill in all the upgrades alt-fires etc once all the big boys are in the field.
Then the needs will drive the ideas.
We'll see in the next build anyways.
I agree that we don't need metabolize as a skill in NS2. Arguably we didn't even need it in NS1. It was originally introduced to balance regeneration (along with nerfs to the regeneration upgrade and innate regeneration) in order to break up the monotony of everyone using the "DC first hive, MC second hive" strategy. Initially it did a wonderful job at that, but unfortunately it turned out to be a case of overcompensating in the other direction, with the result being almost everyone switching to an "MC first hive SC or DC second hive" strategy instead. If regeneration is balanced properly, there shouldn't be any need for it, and in my opinion metabolize made fading too easy once the second hive was up.
I still don't see that there's an actual need for secondary attacks in the game. The NS1 mantra of "no secondary attacks" worked beautifully and I haven't seen any good arguments for changing it. It's really a case of design minimalism -- which I think should be a goal for any game. It's much better to have four clearly separated and distinguishable attacks/abilities (naturally connected to keys 1-4) than just piling on as many attacks/abilities you can think of.
Edit: The last paragraph was about alt-fire, not what the thread is actually discussion apparently.
Or like a forward stash pike attack that does only DMG to armor. Like a tin opener. Would be useful against EXOs.
Imagine this is a Fade, and he did something like a foreard NS1 style blink and either turns his claw or pulls it up like a chin puonce.
<img src="http://www.kung-fu-buch.de/kungfu/fotos/waffenfotos/schwert1.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
The thing can blink for gods sake, i'm sure there are all sorts of cool more 'magical' things that could be possible but with a large cost to energy.
Yeah.
In general I really want to let the devs do their thing and go for things they want in the game, but discussion like this pretty much point out that there doesn't seem to much of a plan for most secondary fires in the game. At that point I'm pretty strongly leaning towards the removal of secondary fires. Quality over quanity.
I think the movement abilities like blink and leap also go quite naturally to the 2nd mouse button. A little like firing the weapon, the movement abilities sync up very nicely with the mouse motion and it's at least for me very natural to have them always triggered by mouse regardless of what weapon you're actually using.
Phase into a group, push some guys out of the way, kill one, run off, etc.
Obvious solution, make frenzy a skulk-only upgrade.
Downside lame noobs using it like cloak all the time...
Upside lame noobs don't take advantage of fades speed..
Or, have the secondary swipe do an arc of damage great for that initial attack on a group of rines but does less damage so you need to switch back to finish them off
How about giving the fade a "force push" ability?
When triggered you launch an invisible stream (yes, stream, not a single wave) till your energy runs out or you release the button. This stream pushes everything small and light away. (grenades, flamethrowerflames, macs would launch far, so do dropped weapons) . It would only very slighty affect marines.
The alt-attack would be a stronger, Maybe half the strenght of a TF2 pyro-airblast.
I know it's not very original or good, but I think we need to search in the 'magical' direction as stated by Runteh
instantly attack but have delay between attacks so it cannot be spammed. The damage would increased based on how many hives aliens have, this way it won't be to strong early on.
* longer attack range, smaller attack area, also results in forward motion
** hold down to charge it up and drain energy and release, held down longer = more damage
This is why i dont support this. Sux.
I always thought that "speed flying" from ns1 wasnt even near of fading away. I love how it is now on ns2 where the fade just disappears and warps out.. And it already stays in this mode for few time.
As for the second attack, it is ok as it is now. Pretty useful for me.
All the other classes uses theirs mostly for purposes that benefit all (enemy tracking, healing, area denial, breaking doors).
My suggestion would be a shriek that restores energy to nearby allies. Could work nicely with Gorges too who often run out of energy healing high-health allies.
But Kingmob is right on track about waiting for the Jetpack and Exo though, we'll have to know about the problem before it can be fixed.
Sorry, by secondary we mean the attack/ability in slot 2.
But yeah, I think the secondary for THAT slot should be the same as it is now.
My idea:
Fade slows down for a moment, (like he does with the second weapon double claw attack) but as soon as he is ready to attack he blinks forward in the cursors direction to his target and attacks for extra heavy damage. Like a charged rush attack.
The damage done would be more per second than swipe, but would make the fade stationary for the charging time, during which time he can be easily shot. This would make for a great opening/ambush attack, or something to use when chasing a fleeing marine, but not one to use in the middle of combat.
A blink->attack that needs to be charged would make it so you gain the ground you lost while charging your attack while still making you vulnerable for that time that you are charging.
Also i had yesterday a long game in ns2_summit. I was on alien side. We had 4 hives, marines in flight control. We couldnt win and lost over the long term because the whole base was full of sentrys, mines and arcs. No chance to snipe in as a lerk or gorge. Going in as a fade was suicide because of the mines or because a single hit of the flamerthrower would burn your energy so fast you couldnt even dream of escaping. Acid Rockets would have helped a lot.
It fits the hit and run roles nicely and could see nice tactical use IMO - instead of destroying buildings with swipe like a skulk it could just disable them. I can see fades getting behind the front lines and pinging between res nodes to strangle the marine economy until they're dealt with or heading straight for the arms lab. This is basically expanding on what everyone did in NS1 - can't beat marines head? Run to their base and kill something important!
Nano shield could prevent it from working. This would reward a marine commander who shields an important structure like a phasegate.
It could even act as a stacking debuff. Each consecutivehit would increase the amount of, time the structure is offline. This way, the marines can play a game of stop the fade from refreshing the debuff duration rather than just sitting there waiting for the fade, helplessly.
Maybe you can even do this while Blinking to throw Marines off your trail!
It fits the hit and run roles nicely and could see nice tactical use IMO - instead of destroying buildings with swipe like a skulk it could just disable them. I can see fades getting behind the front lines and pinging between res nodes to strangle the marine economy until they're dealt with or heading straight for the arms lab. This is basically expanding on what everyone did in NS1 - can't beat marines head? Run to their base and kill something important!
Nano shield could prevent it from working. This would reward a marine commander who shields an important structure like a phasegate.
It could even act as a stacking debuff. Each consecutivehit would increase the amount of, time the structure is offline. This way, the marines can play a game of stop the fade from refreshing the debuff duration rather than just sitting there waiting for the fade, helplessly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The more I think about this, the more I like it. It doesn't give me any 'woah' feeling on paper, but it still seems interesting, adds a decent chunk of versatility, probably suits the lifeform and I can't think of any bigger downsides.
I think one of the notable things with the present fade design is that while it's powerful, it's still pretty squishy once someone is able to punish it and then it simply runs out of options. Giving it some alternative to meleeing marines sounds like a decent plan.
Also, stacking up charges sounds nice. It reminds me of those nailbiter NS1 situations where you're trying to take out a base building when the defence squad arrives and starts hurting you while you need just a few swipes more to finish the building. In similar way you could probably try to stack up disables on siegemobiles to save a under siege hive for example.
I think one of the notable things with the present fade design is that while it's powerful, it's still pretty squishy once someone is able to punish it and then it simply runs out of options. Giving it some alternative to meleeing marines sounds like a decent plan.
Also, stacking up charges sounds nice. It reminds me of those nailbiter NS1 situations where you're trying to take out a base building when the defence squad arrives and starts hurting you while you need just a few swipes more to finish the building. In similar way you could probably try to stack up disables on siegemobiles to save a under siege hive for example.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, those were all things I had in my head. I think it would work best with some kind of linear ramping mechanism, something like 1st hit = 2second debuff, 2nd hit = 8s, 3rd hit = 14s , 4th hit = 20s. Every hit after that would refresh the timer to 20s.
The energy costs could be used to balance how many buildings can be taken offline by each fade at once - say 2 res towers per fade with an average blink travel time of ~10 seconds between nodes and up to 3/4 buildings in a base. The ramping up time would mean it only reached full power if uninterrupted - the hallmark of a good harassment ability!
It would also add another variable for fades to keep track of mentally, which is nice.
The fact that marines wouldn't have to keep figuring out which buildings to replace from a relatively simple hit and run (building is boring) is a bonus!
Here's a less thought through idea but it could also affect marines by say, preventing them from picking up med packs and ammo for a shorter duration. This would give the aliens a possible way of breaking sieges and hopefully work to prevent slippery slope. Not sure about it, though.