hi everyone i made a video [NSFW Video]
TrueVeritas
Join Date: 2006-10-20 Member: 58082Members
Join Date: 2006-10-20 Member: 58082Members
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Comments
1) I don't mind the marine RTS system the way it is. You still have to communicate with the commander. While yes you can have players that want to rambo.. they will learn that they need to stick with other teammates anyways and so I think that it actually is somewhat better because the players that would usually not go along and camp base for no apparent reason are more willing to go out with some teammates and actually make a push towards the aliens.
2) I don't like how the gorge lost his building mechanics.. with a commander role though, a lerk can be in the hive so instead of having 2 gorges pushing out.. there's 1 gorge and the commander who would have been a gorge in NS1, is still a unit capable of attacking. If you compare it to SC, imagine if one of your drones was a mutalisk.. or if your mutalisks could mine for that matter. You have to remember though when you compare to SC - that you are talking about a game where your army is usually comprised of 40 units supply.. where in NS the unit supply if it were given a number would be much less, like around 6~12 if that. Now imagine a unit supply army of 10 in SC2 facing off.. the battle wouldn't last long and one team would start moving in on the enemy while the enemy would have to resupply.
3) You can still build things in advance, and they are powered down/start dying until you get the powernode/infestation working. I really don't think that this overcomplicates the game.. Although for aliens I think that some structures should be self-sustaining (not needing infestation)
4) Yes, static defence is a pain in the ass. If anything, these are the culprit for slowing down gameplay.. your example vid there where you're attacking (Your own?) hydras.. well the commander should be dropping you medpacks but really I don't know what else could be there because you say you don't like attacking static objects and yet the whole game requires you to kill the Hives/CCs. If those hydras weren't there you'd just be attacking the Hive, or skulks I guess :\ (Also **** James Cameron)
5) I have actually had really good performance except for the time I was accidentally downloading something. Make sure to bring up net_stats when you join a server to see your real ping.. sometimes you'd be surprised how high it is even though the server pinged low when you refreshed it in the list. I hope that gets fixed.
6) I think there are some speed balances that can be changed too.. after all celerity isn't in the game yet, and it's still beta!
Cheers for the video. Though i do tend to disagree with your opinion on 'The direction uwe is heading towards'.
Here is a praise post coming from a player called Laosh'Ra.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It seems NS2 is going into the right direction, please keep up the good work. the reason i post this right now is because i realised that many posts involve bug reports, ideas on how to change things, etc. which could indicate that "things are bad right now and need to be changed". but most people really love the game and they contribute those things to make it even better. it is natural for people to moan about things which are not working properly, but this also means that they actually care: they want it to improve, instead of silently thinking by themselves "hey this should be different". well, what i just pointed out might be quite obvious, but i still feel like reminding you in order to cheer you up. for such a small company, you're doing a great job.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I could post many more, though you get the point. Everyone has their own opinion. Thanks for sharing your ideas dude.
Cheers,
-Scott.C
good joke
fall 2009
As far as I know nothing was said about a summer release.
Also the performances problems seems to come mainly from the lua game code and not from the graphics.
<snip>
<i>None of that please. -Zaggy</i>
So will the game be released this year?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes.
--Cory
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There was no release date set. Only that it will come it sometime this year.
-On your critics I would like to say that I also dislike things like marines buying wepons to attract the cod crowd. On the other hand you have to see. If they dont attract them they might not be able to produce the game at all. So if the decision has to be made I am for trying to attract them.
-I do not agree with you about the power grid and the infestation. I think it adds depth and possibilites to the game. You have more alternatives to attack your opponent
-About the alien commander: I would have loved if they would have kept the asymmetry, but I also understand why they didnt. The game balance just didnt scale up for larger crowds. Now it does. My hope though is that both commanders aswell as the gorge get more to do to keep it interesting. I think the nanoshield is a great step into the right direction.
-On static defenses I agree with you, but I dont mind to have them in the game. Untill the game is released there is enough time to balance them.
-About the performance I am very keen they will get there untill v1.0. They made good improvements so far and I am sure the speed will once again increase when the game is feature complete so they can optimize stuff that otherwise may need to be rewritten after adding other stuff.
-The only point I see really problematic so far is the missing of skillbased movment. I know as you said it is personal oppinion, but it was what made ns1 fun to play in the long run. However I also have hope here that they will find some mechanic.
Finally I think it is good that you try to criticise the devs instead of just moaning on the forums, I would just have liked if it was more constructive and less 'what the ######'
Read what meb said.
@62seconds.
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# The commander relationship with players is still lacking, and NS2HD/playesters/UWE figure that the more you play or rather, 'if you play in a certain way' you will fit that role better.
Well, not everyone thinks the same way as you do, so that is massively flawed. The system needs an overhaul in some way, and things just need to be clearer.
I'm not a fan of stepping back to NS1 in terms of implementation, i'd rather see players UNDERSTANDING and WANTING to obey orders. Waypoints need to be clear on the map/minimap - big flashing waypoints, etc. When comm speaks it needs to be more obvious.
What is happening with squads as well?
# Sentries are poorly implemented, I would rather see them as working like doors. The James Cameron idea is actually better, where you have say - 2 sentries - and they are designed to cut off hallways NOT FILL ROOMS.
Just make them expensive, super powerful, very low FOV (25 - 35 degrees) so only useful for corridors, and strong frontal armour but very low rear...
Mines can cover bases now.
I'm not sure there was the need for all the 'WHAT THE ****' swearing, it sort of lowered the tone on the points you were trying to make.
I would have listened to your points, if 1) You could cut out the cursing and 2) if you'd given actual constructive criticism, with thoughts on how to improve or change the game to make it better, neither of which you did.
I would have listened to your points, if 1) You could cut out the cursing and 2) if you'd given actual constructive criticism, with thoughts on how to improve of change the game to make it better, neither of which you did.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
why on earth would someone get into trouble watching any video at work instead of..you know.. actually working. tagging something as nsfw is kinda pointless since watching any friggen video would be nsfw anyways, and dudes, ..stay away from a computer game developers page when you are at work, so you cant get into troubles in the first place :p
oh.. and thumbs up on that over dramatized and plentiful exaggerated video there boss, i just know ive just played 3 awesome games in a row on the latest build, and it was a blast. and then 2 not so awesome games followed, because of bad commanders... op talked about lacking relationship of the commanders with the players i had indeed no relationship with them, they were bad commanders, but the others i won the games with, i tell you, i loved them with mouth, that awesome was the relationship :D
I would have listened to your points, if 1) You could cut out the cursing and 2) if you'd given actual constructive criticism, with thoughts on how to improve or change the game to make it better, neither of which you did.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
you wouldn't believe the number of people going "WHAT THE ######" over ns2. i found the cursing appropriate for the constant facepalm elements flayra keeps tossing on the pile
make it more like the great, balanced game that everyone loves/loved that was ns was his constructive criticism. he had several good points that you probably didn't even give consideration because he expressed what EVERYONE is thinking
there are 20,000+ people who opted in to beta and i only see 50 max playing on a good day after a patch release. i'm sure it's hard for a playtest lead to face reality, but the game has inherited and built on every boring element of gameplay from NS, while crippling the elements that made it a fast, unique fps
now it's said to be released in 2011 when my 2500k overclocked to 4.6ghz has problems running it? there are smartphones that are more powerful than the minimum requirements suggested for ns2 when the game was announced
flayra, hire me for ns2 pr lead and i will turn this boat around
I however thoroughly enjoy the game and love where it is heading. I think developing their own engine as opposed to using source or anything else is a trade off. yes we have to drudge through an un optimized engine, but i believe that spark brings a special feel to the game that another engine would not capture. I personally am having a great time playing the game, and have enjoyed the journey that is the thought process of UWE made material.
I am a huge fan of pure RTS games. I LOVE sc2 - i play it all the time. But it doesn't deliver the satisfaction of leading real individuals into virtual combat and succeeding. If you want mindless automatons dont play ns2. Yes there is similarities to sc2 and i am sure they have gotten a few ideas from there. but the game and the way the rts element is involved is not like sc2 at all. when all of your units are real people, the game changes completely. You have to know where to put you most skilled player and how to use him/her. In a pure rts all units of the same class perform the same, every time. So lets kill the sc2 references because they dont really have a place in ns2.
Not to mention, it really shouldn't be a necessary precondition of constructive criticism to give alternative solutions. If there is a problem, the first step is to recognize it, and to say discussion cannot be had simply because the OP has no current solution is like sticking your head into the sand.
<u><b>Weapondrop/Weaponbuy</b></u>
I have to disagree on the weapon drop point but only in terms of the reasons you put forth. Lets say there are two states of commanders such that you can have an apathetic commander, or one that is actively aware of players. In both weapondrop and weaponbuy situations, the state of your commander is the main driver behind commander/player relationships. To illustrate, in NS2 competitively, being able to buy your own weapons doesn't affect how the commander and players interact as the team co-ordinates so the dynamic is almost the same. In pubs, while its harder to get a shotgun rush going, a good commander is still able to have a close relationship with ground players. Rather, weapondrop and weaponbuy isnt the be and end all.
However, the reason why i think commander weapon drop was a good mechanic was because it came out of tres which means more defined opportunity costs and greater strategic considerations. Do i drop a shotgun now to buff my marines or do i drop an RT or get upgrades? Or how many mines should i drop? You didn't get mine spam in NS1 because it was all tied back into economy.
<u><b>Aliencomm/Gorge</b></u>
You can't deny that alien comm and to some extent gorge are mind numbingly boring atm. You dont need detailed reasoning to see this. I'm under the impression that gorges are planned to get alot more tools, but the current mechanics of alien comm arn't really very thought provoking.
To have to choose crag or shade or shift before you can start putting down pustules was a really bad move and let me explain why. Let us say a player has the choice to build either x,y, or z. How does he choose? He chooses partly based on the relative strengths of each option as well as in relation to the choices of his opponent. In other words, forcing choice at game start remove the value of option and it becomes a coinflip in terms of the metagame, taking away whatever strategic thought there already was in an already anemic player role. If i see robotics/armslab being built instead of obs, i build shade. Its this kind of strategic interaction between teams that i think is missing so that its rather one dimensional.
<b><u>Static Defense</u></b>
You can't deny that static defense atm is really overdone. Using a fragile class like a lerk to counter is pretty silly given the insane dps turrets push along with marine support. This topic has been done to death... Although hydra's are not hitscan and you can dodge them somewhat just as in NS1.
<u><b>Server performance</b></u>
Server optimization is a real issue as far as i can see. Not to say great performance leaps havn't been made but I joined 4 foreign servers (not the prime ones HBZ etc.) this morning and all of them were at 3-7 ticks which produces the stuttering Veritas shows.
If you're not interested in playing more than once every six months; which evidently you aren't - why not wait until the game is finished before passing judgement? Regardless of when you believe the game is coming out, you're still technically putting a game down based on an unfinished, unbalanced and incomplete build.
The real solution is to implement a built-in PUG matchmaker so you can play with randoms in a setting more conducive to co-operation.
2. Alien commander - Currently split the NS1 gorge role into two, not necessarily bad. But right now both A-Comm and gorge are terrible to play, I agree. The main fun of NS1 gorge wasn't placing structures, it was healing team-mates/structures and bilebombing ######. It also provided a nice bit of calm if you chose to potter about behind the front lines for a bit by focusing on improving alien infrastructure. Since the A-Comm is obviously here to stay it needs way more active stuff to be doing than farting umbra from static defenses.
Here's a post I made about a simple way to improve the gameplay of the <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=115862&st=40&p=1894434&#entry1894434" target="_blank">Alien commander</a> and here's one about the <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=115284&st=100&p=1886232&#entry1886232" target="_blank">gorge</a>.
3. Infestation/Power system - I agree with your analysis of them as gameplay elements.
As an NS1 vet, ever since we had a roundtable ventrilo discussion with Flayra years ago the power grid idea set off alarm bells. We instinctively felt it was removing one of the fun elements of the game. It turns out that the power system merely offers false choice, which seems to appease players who like staring at a wall for 30 seconds. Yeah I get that it's trying to apply the Turret Factory/Turret point of weakness relationship to all marine structures, but is that even a good idea? All evidence points to no.
re: Infestation - I feel infestation works better than the power grid but only because extra macro for the commander role is direly needed. ATM it's not really a choice whether to build a drifter or build a cyst - they're both part of the same choice because you have to cyst before you can build. If drifters were actually viable for use as other things throughout the whole game [see Alien comm link above] this would be more of a real choice, but even then the choice is between "build" and "combat support" and not "infest", "build" or "combat support". Cysts just seem like a really longwinded way of increasing build time of buildings. Or as the OP said: Slow the game down needlessly.
I would love to test a version of NS2 where you can build anywhere you want as aliens and infestation merely spawns as an aesthetic around structures.
Also on the topic of infestation: why why why WHY WHY does infestation debuff the marines? It is <b>so very annoying</b>. If player power must be linked to territorial control (which is a terrible idea for an FPS and still pretty ###### in an RTS <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=115493&st=0&p=1886706&#entry1886706" target="_blank">Here is a post I made identifying why</a>) then can we at least have the change in power be fun? Speed up the aliens by 10% rather than slow the (already gimped) marines.
While we're at it I'd like to test a version with a blanket run-speed buff applied to both marines and aliens of approx 10-20%. Also remove sprint.
4. Static defence - Agree completely. Can we have turrets and hydras die after 60 seconds? Has anyone ever had fun fighting against static defences? The only reason mines were even tolerated in NS1 was because they <b>expire on use</b>, <b>weren't spammed everywhere</b> and were <b>more a deterrent than killing device</b>. Turrets and hydras are none of these. Every time a turret is dropped in NS, the game dies a little more in my eyes.
How to fix? Make mines cost team res and only deployable by the commander. Make hydras and turrets expire after a short amount of time and reduce their DPS. Limit the number that can be placed, either by limiting the number per area (link to power node or something) or by player (in the case of gorges, you can drop 3 max). Adjust costs accordingly. Do all of these, not just one or two. Static defence only work as time creating deterrents, allowing real players to arrive and deal with a threat, not when they're commander controlled killing machines.
5. Optimisation - I won't comment on this because my input would be of literally no value. I think everyone knows what's up with this.
Edit: Oh yeah, I wanted to say this: With regards to design choices, it seems like overly rock paper scissors decisions are trumping the gameplay portions every time. To me, it feels like the game design is so focused on creating a game that works in theory that it is bordering on completely overshadowing the FPS/RTS aspects. This makes no sense to me because strategy is all well and good, but I'm not going to want to play a game where the basics are just not fun.
My point? More focus on making the FPS and RTS sides of the game enjoyable, please!
You can't deny that alien comm and to some extent gorge are mind numbingly boring atm. You dont need detailed reasoning to see this. I'm under the impression that gorges are planned to get alot more tools, but the current mechanics of alien comm arn't really very thought provoking.
To have to choose crag or shade or shift before you can start putting down pustules was a really bad move and let me explain why. Let us say a player has the choice to build either x,y, or z. How does he choose? He chooses partly based on the relative strengths of each option as well as in relation to the choices of his opponent. In other words, forcing choice at game start remove the value of option and it becomes a coinflip in terms of the metagame, taking away whatever strategic thought there already was in an already anemic player role. If i see robotics/armslab being built instead of obs, i build shade. Its this kind of strategic interaction between teams that i think is missing so that its rather one dimensional.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--coloro:#00FF00--><span style="color:#00FF00"><!--/coloro-->+1<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
On the need to pustule before choosing hive status
Although as Alien-comm there is ALOT to do, and it does keep me thinking. Activating cloak and umbra. Placing not only pustules, but also getting drifters into position. The dynamics of using whips offensively (and efficiently) is something I'm not yet used too, and the OTHER purpose of the upgrade chambers have not yet been revealed. I imagine that they will have some bearing on the game other then to look pretty (ugly), which will mean that their placement becomes more important aswell(?).
I would like if there was a soft sound plays to the comm when a shade has deactivated it's cloak.
What I am really concerned about is this 2012 release date. Once all the features are in, I estimate the real beta should run for about half a year. And they are not even close to feature complete.
Which means either the game will be unfinished on release or they will not release this year. If the second thing happens I hope they will not run out of money.
If it is unfinished I can guarantee you that every impartial reviewer (in another thread they mentioned TotalHalibut) will raise the same concerns as the OP here and no one will buy the game and perhaps they will run out of money and won't be able to finish the game.
This means they should really concentrate on finishing the game without feature creep. And in my optionion feature creep here means everything that does only add a small amount of value to the game but causes a lot of balancing issues and costs a lot of time. An example would be dynamic infestation or the pustule "placeholders". Or even the static defences for marines. Or those power nodes. Concentrate on the core features, make them work. And then more can be added.
They have to keep in mind, that the target audience probably aren't ns1 players (we have to keep that in mind as well). Those pobably already bought. So nobody will complain that the game is too similar to ns1. Nobody will say that he will not play the game because it is the same as ns1 and he already has that.
While we're at it I'd like to test a version with a blanket run-speed buff applied to both marines and aliens of approx 10-20%. Also remove sprint.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What you can do is start a topic (well two) in "Ideas and Suggestions", something like "let's test X !". We will have a look in the code how to implement the changes and then we can test it during a gather. We already did that for fade blink momentum and lerk spikes. What was lacking from theses is a formal reporting (like a poll, ...) at the end, we didn't really concluded anything solid, but it was still fairly interesting.
When people see NSFW, it generally means nekkid people and that sort of material. I'm not sure if this attracts the wrong sort of people to this thread or causes people to instantly make a coloured impression of the contents.
Its a video that contains no offensive images and only moderate swearing. If your playing unrelated videos at work, do you really play them through speakers?
Now if people do offer it, that's a nice bonus but there should be no expectation of it.
I agree somewhat with the views in the video and think there are warning signs of general agreement in the community. Why? Because no-one (the smallest fraction possible) actually plays the game.
This could be for many reasons, but the major ones I see are:
1) <b>Performance.</b> This really is not a simple or quick fix. Those expecting things to magically get 100% better between now and release could be in for a nasty shock. There could be any number of problems that UWE for whatever reason cannot resolve before then, ending in bad server/client performance even at release. It is not a simple task to take NS2 from its current performance to acceptable performance.
2) <b>Feedback.</b> I am going to lie this at the play testers feet. As if anyone in the community is in the best position to see the game (especially the direction it is going) and discuss things with developers it is them. If anyone in the community can be expected to give constructive criticism it is them. From the interaction I have had with or seen from them it makes me want to faceplam. As the saying goes: If you pay peanuts, you get monkeys.
Playtester's aside there is another problem. Where is the system for detailed feedback? To my knowledge no-one has even detailed the intended philosophy behind NS2 gameplay, without which there is no point offering feedback. Otherwise you end up dealing with the symptoms not the problem.
I think that UWE are extremely lucky to have a community that despite the above still manages to run clans, make community websites, record/make videos, etc.
At the moment, the game does feel stale. Not many people are playing...
I remember the excitement of the early CS betas, and how every build there would be a massive influx of players and it just grew and grew.
Granted, this was at the beginning of the phenomenon that is online gaming, but it kept me coming back for more.
I uninstalled NS2 a couple of builds ago because I just don't feel 'connected' to anyone, and that is what the multiplayer aspect of the game is about. I don't feel connected to the commander, nore other squad members (most wouldn't even know they were part of a squad).
This is by far and foremost a game about relationships between players, and I just don't feel it unless EVERYONE on the server is a vet NS1 player and works together at a high level.
This is something you guys should build around and off of.
Those who are criticising how the OP is coming across, come down from your mountain and just look at the content. It also seems to be the playtesters that are the most critical of this post.
Maybe we should have a "meet the playtesters". It would be nice to see how they not only playtest in-game, but actually discuss things such as this, as we only ever seem to see the constant "be faithful" etc. it comes across that whenever an idea is announced, anything goes in the GDD, it seems PT's roll over and accept it rather than challenge it. At least, that is the perception from an outside view. I'm sure it could be more than different.
How big is the playtesting pool anyway? As the public playing pool isn't huge... this is a screenshot I've taken in the past 5 minutes,
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/M0p3n.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
47 players.
It would be pretty staggering to see official figures on sales then put that as a percentage. As using meb3 example of 50/20,000. That is 0.25% playing. There is probably more people playing in the playtesting group.
EDIT:
Also lets compare it at roughly the same time to the NS1 server list,
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/2hSol.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
A little bit about that video:
The performance-point you're making doesn't really hold up as it aren't the graphics that pose the main issue, it's the Lua-script. Now you could go ahead and say UWE should've said "###### it" and re-do it in C++ to avoid the headaches, which is fair enough. But you must remember that when they do it in a machine-code variant, things are pretty much locked down. You won't be getting any modding head-room of any sort (apart from some server-side tinkering), clients will have to do with whatever UWE writes for them, and watching your video I'm thinking you don't much care for that prospect.
It's a choice, either settle with whatever UWE shoves down your throat and get that good performance, or wait it out longer still for Lua-performance to go up and let the idea of being able to fix everything that is broken in NS2 carry you through it. Both choices are reasonable, but if you have the patience this Lua-thing might work out rather well for you.
Modding is slowly but surely dying on the multi-player front. And to allow modding of your engine you need to have a damn lot of time and money. Something which you get by selling product. So you need to build on a foundation, rather than rolling your first product as an all in one, an overly ambitious project on minimal funds. Business unsmart.
Even though I prefer the NS1 way, I can live with players buying their own weapons. As far as I know it was introduced so that players didn't depend on the comm dropping weapons (although, I don't recall that being a problem in NS1). Of course, they still depend on the comm to actually research stuff. In competitive games it makes no difference. My biggest criticism here would be the implications for the resource system. You have to think much less about spending resources in NS2.
#2
Agreed, gorge and alien comm are not that exciting yet.
#3
Infestation and the power grid might seem cool on paper, but they don't really improve the game. Especially the power grid is all about visuals and boring downtime. At least excluding RTs from needing power or infestation would be nice to make the game less tedious.
#4
I played Nuclear Dawn during the free weekend and yes, it is the perfect example of how not to do static defences. :D
#5
Eh, can't really comment on performance before the release of the final version. Obviously it still needs to improve a lot.
On a side-note, how are game videos suited for work anyway? :)