People don't understand Res
Raneman
Join Date: 2010-01-07 Member: 69962Members
Join Date: 2010-01-07 Member: 69962Members
I've seen loads of bad commanders lately that don't seem to grasp the concept of res.
The more res towers you have, the easier it is to win the game. So why don't people build them? Res towers give exponential growth. But I've seen loads and loads of commanders lately that seem happy with 0.25 res every 8 seconds and respond to everyone's complaints with "Gorge Jetson: lol umad"
You need econ to win, comms.
The more res towers you have, the easier it is to win the game. So why don't people build them? Res towers give exponential growth. But I've seen loads and loads of commanders lately that seem happy with 0.25 res every 8 seconds and respond to everyone's complaints with "Gorge Jetson: lol umad"
You need econ to win, comms.
Comments
Skulks against res towers actually take a fair bit of time, and even those can easily turn investments upside down if they're not well protected. Commanders and team need to work together or res towers just too much trouble to bother with (and thus winning the game, is too much of a trouble to bother with in many cases.)
Honestly I'd blame this a lot more on cysts then on res towers or commanders. Cysts are a frustrating system to deal with because the chains are easy to break and constantly drain your hive energy you want to spend on drifters to make structures in the early game. It only takes one marine a few seconds to break a chain and deprive a res tower of infestation.
Gorges don't really ameliorate this because their cysts costs a large amount of Pres to create for an organism that's very unlikely to make any resources for kills and who would really prefer to be placing hydras to defend the cysts already there, rather than trying to put more cysts to slow the enemy down. Ultimately the marine can kill more cysts than you can place.
Exactly this!
Resource Towers cost 10 t-Res and generate 1 t-Res each 8 seconds, this means it takes 80 second just for the Res Tower to pay for itself, so if you cant assure the Tower is going to stay up for at least 80 seconds its just wasted Res. For Marines you can usually go with 3 RTs if you manage to keep them up for the early game. If you manage to get a fourth RT up and running for about the first 5 mins you get a pretty decent Res advantage which leads to tech advantage. If you on the other Hand keep redropping RTs which you can no way defend for even 60 seconds you just constantly waste 2 res per minute per RT, which leads to no tech and a certain loss.
Aliens on the other hand usually go for at least 4 RTs in early game, as the Marines are a lot more pressured in early game. The limiting factor to Alien Resource tower capping is Hive energy, so if Marines manage to chop down cysts Alien get into trouble keeping up their RTs.
So much for the Basics of Resource Management in early to mid-game
Aye, but exponential growth.
You can get more res faster the more res you build.
Resource Towers cost 10 t-Res and generate 1 t-Res each 8 seconds, this means it takes 80 second just for the Res Tower to pay for itself, so if you cant assure the Tower is going to stay up for at least 80 seconds its just wasted Res. For Marines you can usually go with 3 RTs if you manage to keep them up for the early game. If you manage to get a fourth RT up and running for about the first 5 mins you get a pretty decent Res advantage which leads to tech advantage. If you on the other Hand keep redropping RTs which you can no way defend for even 60 seconds you just constantly waste 2 res per minute per RT, which leads to no tech and a certain loss.
Aliens on the other hand usually go for at least 4 RTs in early game, as the Marines are a lot more pressured in early game. The limiting factor to Alien Resource tower capping is Hive energy, so if Marines manage to chop down cysts Alien get into trouble keeping up their RTs.
So much for the Basics of Resource Management in early to mid-game<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Recycle?
Marines can even put a nano shield on extractors thats going down, and recycle it.
If it's just a single skulk biting it, the extractor loses almost no hp before it's recycled. Lots of res back.
Aliens don't have a problem with aquireing resources either, it requires no player interaction(like on marines, holding 'e').
The commander can do it all by himself, and they are easily redropped if they die.
The only way I've found to resource effectively is to spam as many as you can, kill as many of the enemy's as you can, and hope like hell nobody tries to kill yours.
It is effectively impossible to actually secure or respond to res node attacks because the amount of money and time it would take makes it a waste of both. It's much easier and cheaper to just wait for the towers to go down and rebuild them all in bulk.
The downside is that you have to constantly watch how many you have, which ones are still up, send out squads to replace them, and basically the entire bloody game is based around playing whack a mole with the res towers.
It's kinda boring when you have two good teams of players who both know the best way to win is also the least fun.
It's been an absolute nightmare in build 193, although only started Alien com in 190..
The pustule pathing on Tram from Server going south is borked, you can only go from server to warehouse then down through the tram tunnels to the elevator tech point. I countered that today as warehouse was first hive, I took res in server, took elevator res, put up hive in elevator, marines didn't see hive going up but tried to arc res in Elevator, so I had to jump out of command and take down the marine and the arc.
I discovered when going from elevator to server, there is no issue, so I was able to support it and make server a safe 3rd hive.
Atrium has an annoying issue with pustule placement too, but it's down to the way the detection zone for pustules is worked out. It doesn't work on level height variations, so when you start in Atrium, although the pustule covers the floor areas either side of the hive, you have to place pustules down the steps to get around there, wasting 45 energy. This is the same for ramps etc, so areas with elevation changes cause issues for the spreading of the cysts. This needs to be looked at pretty urgently because it is really broken. Maybe make the cyst placement detection a sphere, rather than a 2D zone?
Oh and you aren't one of these who keep shouting, drop a res here, put the 2nd hive there, when we have no Res or energy are you? :)
<!--quoteo(post=1896862:date=Jan 24 2012, 12:24 AM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Jan 24 2012, 12:24 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1896862"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->basically the entire bloody game is based around playing whack a mole with the res towers.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Heh. That is an apt (and sad) description.
It does seem to me that RTs do involve too high an investment (in time, human resources, and actual resources) for an unguaranteed profit (might not pay for itself in time).
I think they should significantly reduce the build cost and build time of RTs, and have the RT pay itself off very quickly. If expansions and replacements are not just cheaper and easier but less likely to be wasted investments, then teams will be far more willing to expand and replace.
Heh. That is an apt (and sad) description.
It does seem to me that RTs do involve too high an investment (in time, human resources, and actual resources) for an unguaranteed profit (might not pay for itself in time).
I think they should significantly reduce the build cost and build time of RTs, and have the RT pay itself off very quickly. If expansions and replacements are not just cheaper and easier but less likely to be wasted investments, then teams will be far more willing to expand and replace.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No no no, bad Harimau :P
We already have problems with resources stacking up, reducing cost and build time only adds to that.
The costs are already lowered from their ns1 counterparts(15 in ns1, 10 in ns2).
We already have problems with resources stacking up, reducing cost and build time only adds to that.
The costs are already lowered from their ns1 counterparts(15 in ns1, 10 in ns2).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The game needs more consumables, imo.
I think so too, but you should not get more resources for that reason.
More abilities -> more trade offs.
No it's not easier or cheaper to wait for the res towers to die.
You can't rebuild restowers in bulk, they have distance between them most of the times.
It's very possible to defend your restowers, you will in many cases have marines/aliens nearby.
You need to keep expanding, 4 restowers is ideal for teching up fast. More than that just helps more.
More abilities -> more trade offs.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You've got it the wrong way around.
We need more consumables because we have an accumulation of resources. Irrespective of lowered costs, this needs to be the case, since it is a problem that already exists.
What lowered costs (less resources and shorter buildtimes) achieve is different:
"If expansions and replacements are not just cheaper and easier but less likely to be wasted investments, then teams will be far more willing to expand and replace."
The loss of a resource tower is no longer debilitating for a team, but still gives the other team a small, cumulative advantage (a resource lead) for repeatedly harassing your resource towers.
I agree with the fact that the build time should be reduced as well as the repair time of broken powernodes. That is because the repairing and building times are pretty long, pressing e is not fun and using so much time on building and repairing makes the marine team very passive. This is not a big problem in summit (especially when the door is lockable) because the players covering rts essentially cover the base and possible some other rts too by blocking the only access to them. But in maps like turtle this is frustrating because the only thing marines can do is keep on rebuilding their rts.
Wrong. I don't know how many times I put a shield or not on the RT in Vent/CL jumped out of com and killed the skulks and went back to my CC.
It is easy to respond to a Alien RT attack if you keep an eye on the map. And I always Shield em if possible and recycle them, but if a marine is nearby I keep an eye on the abort recycle button if the marine manages to distract or kill the skulk.
Or just send 1 speed mac repairt the RT abit and then distract the skulk away from the RT leading back to base and you jump out and run to the MAC to kill the skulk.
Often a scan forces a skulk to hide or retreat because he thinks marines are comming.
We already have problems with resources stacking up, reducing cost and build time only adds to that.
The costs are already lowered from their ns1 counterparts(15 in ns1, 10 in ns2).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The simple way to fix that, and still maintain the cheaper RTS, is to increase the price of everything else. Personally, I'd love to see an exponential-like increase in price for tech level (e.g. tech1 = 10res, tech2 = 20 res, tech3 = 40 res).
Also, while I understand not recycling attacked RTs generally loses res, I still don't do it because its a useful way to spread out and tie up aliens. For example, if I'm having my marines rush an Atrium hive, I'd prefer having skulks chomping on the RT in sub access rather than defending atrium.
Heh. That is an apt (and sad) description.
It does seem to me that RTs do involve too high an investment (in time, human resources, and actual resources) for an unguaranteed profit (might not pay for itself in time).
I think they should significantly reduce the build cost and build time of RTs, and have the RT pay itself off very quickly. If expansions and replacements are not just cheaper and easier but less likely to be wasted investments, then teams will be far more willing to expand and replace.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Honestly I think the opposite.
I'd much rather you were better off really building up your resource expansions, to the point where it is probably advisable to build a second base for the res at the start, rather than just concentrating on secondary res nodes.
I think res nodes should provide half as much res as they currently do, but if you build a CC/Hive in the same room as a res node, it puts out the current res rate instead. It also fortifies the RT so it's significantly harder to kill, for aliens you could have it grow carapace and heal really fast, for marines you could have it self repair and have a constant nanoshield around it.
That way securing a tech node room and building it up securely gives you twice as many resources as just random res nodes, as well as a much mroe survivable income source.
Later in the game, you will want to capture the secondary nodes, and leaving them uncontested is of course a bad idea, but you should be fine just hanging onto your bases and keeping them secure, as well as the secondary nodes uncontested.
I think that'd work really well. Keeps the focus on fewer parts of the map, keeps the fighting centred around bases with skirmishing over secondary nodes being a side-focus.
<!--quoteo(post=1896887:date=Jan 23 2012, 05:42 PM:name=Floodinator)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Floodinator @ Jan 23 2012, 05:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1896887"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Wrong. I don't know how many times I put a shield or not on the RT in Vent/CL jumped out of com and killed the skulks and went back to my CC.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Which is fine if you are on a map where the nodes are that close, and they only attack with skulks, and the skulks aren't very good, and you don't plan on expanding any further than next door to your main base.