Thoughs About 2nd Hives For Marines And Aliens.
Eidolan
Join Date: 2002-11-15 Member: 8694Members
Join Date: 2002-11-15 Member: 8694Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Lets do the math shall we?</div> I bet this has been posted before but i'll say it again(this was taken from a post i made on an other topic):
I think fades come way to quick with 2nd hive for there power. Often i'v seen fades win alone as you can get them before marines get HA/HMG (HA/HMG marines can stand toe to toe with fades if they know what they are doing) And Aliens can ALMOST always get fades before marines get HA/HMG or there 2nd hive. Lets look at the prices. Hive cost 80 RU(not that long if you got a good builder) Money it takes for marines to get HA/HMG(this is depended on how many players you need to gear up so keep that in mind) You need an armory 25. Then upgrade it 35. Then an arms lab 50. Then prototype lab 45. Then 50 for upgrading the HA for a cost of 250!!! AND THATS JUST FOR THE TECH NOT EVEN COUNTING THE COST OF GIVING THE STUFF TO THE MARINES!!! Lets look at that cost shall we? A good geared marine should have HA(25) Welder(10) HMG(25) for a cost of 60 RU per marine next to the fades 44. Then look upgrades. Full upgraded marine: Weapons: 20,40,60 then armor also 20,40,60 for a cost of 240 RU to get full upgraded. It only cost about 6 BUCKS! For a fade to upgrade. Sure he has to do it everytime he dyed but if he is worth anything as a player he will live long enuf that his money has more then come back. Ok then some people say "well just take the 2nd hive before they do" Lets look at the cost of that shall we? Hive 80RU. The BASIC marine defece(not worth crap really) TF 25, 4 senterys at 19 bucks a pop at a cost of 101 dollors. And this is gaurding the TF and some of the room not really enuf to stop a whole alien attack. Then if the commander is smart he will add a phase gate add 14 bucks for that gate and 14 more for the gate at home for a grand cost of 129 bucks next to the aliens 80. Seem fair to you? Then add that 129 bucks again because you need to DO IT TWICE FOR THE 1ST HIVE!!! And as we all know Aliens rake in money in the start due to the fact they can have one builder plop Res Towwers all over while the others keep the marines busy.
I think fades come way to quick with 2nd hive for there power. Often i'v seen fades win alone as you can get them before marines get HA/HMG (HA/HMG marines can stand toe to toe with fades if they know what they are doing) And Aliens can ALMOST always get fades before marines get HA/HMG or there 2nd hive. Lets look at the prices. Hive cost 80 RU(not that long if you got a good builder) Money it takes for marines to get HA/HMG(this is depended on how many players you need to gear up so keep that in mind) You need an armory 25. Then upgrade it 35. Then an arms lab 50. Then prototype lab 45. Then 50 for upgrading the HA for a cost of 250!!! AND THATS JUST FOR THE TECH NOT EVEN COUNTING THE COST OF GIVING THE STUFF TO THE MARINES!!! Lets look at that cost shall we? A good geared marine should have HA(25) Welder(10) HMG(25) for a cost of 60 RU per marine next to the fades 44. Then look upgrades. Full upgraded marine: Weapons: 20,40,60 then armor also 20,40,60 for a cost of 240 RU to get full upgraded. It only cost about 6 BUCKS! For a fade to upgrade. Sure he has to do it everytime he dyed but if he is worth anything as a player he will live long enuf that his money has more then come back. Ok then some people say "well just take the 2nd hive before they do" Lets look at the cost of that shall we? Hive 80RU. The BASIC marine defece(not worth crap really) TF 25, 4 senterys at 19 bucks a pop at a cost of 101 dollors. And this is gaurding the TF and some of the room not really enuf to stop a whole alien attack. Then if the commander is smart he will add a phase gate add 14 bucks for that gate and 14 more for the gate at home for a grand cost of 129 bucks next to the aliens 80. Seem fair to you? Then add that 129 bucks again because you need to DO IT TWICE FOR THE 1ST HIVE!!! And as we all know Aliens rake in money in the start due to the fact they can have one builder plop Res Towwers all over while the others keep the marines busy.
Comments
Per res towwer yes. But look at the number or res towwers in early game. Even with god commanders marines have 2 maybe 3 res towwers? While the aliens have the rest. Its because the marines gaurd/sentery there outposts because aliens tend to run around the map and are MUCH more likey to find a outpost then a marine is. Marines also have a hard time killing alien outposts because they gota knife em and are open to attack plus all the aliens and see anytime a res towwer is under attack and will come to its aid if there any good. Marines on the other time need there com to find/send them there waypoint and marines move much slower then the aliens so by the time they get there its prolly dead/FUBAR so the marines almost ALWAYS place senterys around there res towwers so this slows there expand rate.
It's really the commanders job to figure out a way to spend the resources properly and how much defense is actually needed to win the game.
One other note: A HA/HMG Marine with another Light Marine is a pretty deadly combination. Give that Light Marine a jetpack/welder/shotty and watch the aliens fall. HA's soak up 95% of the damage... that's pretty damn high considering it will take that Light Marine about five seconds to get the armor back up to full with the welder.
Errr... not usually. Normally aliens only have 3-4 res towers until after their 2nd hive.
This is what i TRY to do but its hard enuf getting people to stay in 1 large team never mind getting them into strike teams. In a clan game i can see this working but almost never in pubs.
Errr... not usually. Normally aliens only have 3-4 res towers until after their 2nd hive.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
When i play as alien's and i build i grab every free node in can (every one but the two closest to the marine spwan) and my team has always won so....
The HA/HMG is superior to the Fade in life and in damage per second. Marines get resources faster than aliens, and can "stack" build to build faster. There is no way to make a hive grow faster. You also neglected the time taken to build upgrade chambers to make Fade actually viable against HA/HMG, and gestation time. In fact, if you go back far enough, you might as well factor in the aliens' ridiculously longer spawn times, and the ability of ANY marine to build compared to only 1 or 2 players on the entire alien team.
Easy.
However, marines tech development, given a commander that techs agressivly, is directly related to income which in turn is directly related to team size.
Thus, if you find that the fades appear before you have MT/upgraded armor/weapons or HMG/HA, it may be that either you are playing on small servers (where marines have very little chance) or your commander may suck.
[1] Does anyone know if this is counted as an exploit? Or is it just the aliens way of pushing resources to the gorge? As it has been "fixed" in both 1.02 and 1.03 and it still works the same way, I'm beginning to think that maybe it's intentional. Anyone knows if it is ok to use in clan games?
I believe I read somewhere that once a Khaara has reached max resources, they no longer "draw" from the resource pool being generated. So, you can dump out and get your resources distributed at the cost of a slow respawn and the fact that you will continue to draw resources longer than you normally would have. Calculations on the short-term gain versus longterm slowness are up to the user.
If that is incorrect/debunked, then I apologize. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Honestly with the matches I've seen, the Khaara are requiring more and more coordination than before. The issue comes with Marines that shoot for one Hive, drop a phase gate a couple turrets, then rush the next empty Hive and drop a phase gate there. Phase Gate = simplifying Marine tactics and oversight. Once you drop a phase at home, Hive 1, and Hive 2, the Marines merely need to "patrol" by going through the Phase Gates until you build enough turrets at both to mostly secure them against Skulk and Lurker incursions.
With a Phase Gate down, its MUCH harder for 1 or 2 good Skulks/Lerkers to stop a Marine position because of the constant Marine portins from homebase. In order to "break" a Hive position of a Phase Gate, TF, and 2-3 turrets requires either 3-4 suicide attacks (with no interruptions such as a porting Marine), or a massed coordinated attack by 3+ Skulks/Lerks. Therefore the Khaara need better coordination and lack the "Commander" position that the Marines have to help "herd" people into formations. There have been many times as a Khaara where I've wedged myself behind a poorly placed TF (or one where only one turret is shooting at me) or suicided to gnaw on a Phase Gate, while desperately requesting assistance or forming to rush, then either a Marine ports in and kills me or I finally get killed by the sentries and Marines repair all my damage while I'm respawning.
It seems like most of the public games I've seen lately involve either total Marine domination (by ninja-claiming two Hives, then executing the third with HA/HMG/GL, or Marines getting dominated by wasting early resources in failed attempts to claim the second hive, then Fades come in and own hapless Marines who can't seem to get initiative back. Also depends on the map too. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
From patch message:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Addressed alien leave/join resource exploit (joining a team you've already been on makes the player wait to respawn, as if he had been killed).<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Easy.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wow, three fades huh? Easy? Those have to be some really moronic fades.
As a rule of thumb on pubs, I only give HA's lategame, and upgrade the armory only if I can afford a 2nd at the base (in other words, we're kicking butt).