I agree with the OP. The maps (you can see on some of the in game minimaps) are based around a marine and alien start in their design, see the new mineshaft preview for an example. This is for the purposes of developing 'sense of place' and having a good atmosphere (a realistic entry point, a sense of progression deeper into the area). Tram even has the 'marine' and 'alien' tunnels, but what if the marines start in server room on the alien tunnel side? It doesn't make as much sense.
I am assuming the idea of random spawns is to prevent the development of rush/lockdown strategies (although some good games in NS1 came from early hive lockdowns) and create unpredictability in the early game, but it is my opinion that some aspects of the development would be easier to keep tabs on if the spawns remained the same each time - e.g Aliens rushing the Warehouse spawn in Tram from Server Room (right next door) has in my experience almost always resulted in an alien victory - the players of that game <i>(many of them trying out their first couple of games after hearing that the development of the game was coming along pretty well)</i> would complain that Marines were way underpowered and this game was too confusing, etc. That kind of overwhelming unpredictability can be too much for new players (note: the only suggestion I am actually making here is to turn random spawns off, not make the game softer for newbies).
<!--quoteo(post=1897400:date=Jan 26 2012, 10:10 AM:name=Wilson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wilson @ Jan 26 2012, 10:10 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1897400"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->but I think the [current maps work] better with fixed spawns.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Fixed.
I genuinely think that random starts with all sorts of scenarios can work well - just that the current maps aren't well-designed for them.
So, +1 remove random spawns from the current maps -1 remove random spawns from the game
@Once_Only: I think it's less about making <b>the game</b> less predictable, but more about making <b>what the other team is doing</b> less predictable. Random starts means that at the start of the game you have to scout (which alone adds tension, <b>potentially</b> slows the pace of the early game, takes some time and entails personal risk), take in information, and adapt/create your strategy accordingly.
This actually sounds like the kind of issue that could be solved with a server side variable or even player voted, as opposed to a definite 'one or the other' solution.
<!--quoteo(post=1897418:date=Jan 26 2012, 07:19 AM:name=Obraxis)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Obraxis @ Jan 26 2012, 07:19 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1897418"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Random spawning is up to the mapper. Don't like it? Change it yourself in the Editor, it's pretty easy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Could there (at some point later on) be some official way of cutting down the spawn combinations if a server wants to do so? Something like a server variable that either mapper set 'balanced spawns' or 'all spawns'.
It could easily get really messy if servers start creating their own spawn rules and nobody but the server regulars have a good idea of which combinations are possible on the particular server.
swalkSay hello to my little friend.Join Date: 2011-01-20Member: 78384Members, Squad Five Blue
edited January 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1897418:date=Jan 26 2012, 08:19 AM:name=Obraxis)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Obraxis @ Jan 26 2012, 08:19 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1897418"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Random spawning is up to the mapper. Don't like it? Change it yourself in the Editor, it's pretty easy.
There will be maps that are like NS1, some random, and possibly even Alien fixed and Marine Random.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Having completely random spawns(both teams being able to spawn at same locations) is a design decision made by Charlie. The official mappers doesn't have this choice at the moment, from what I know. They have been set on the impossible task of making balanced random spawn maps, with asymmetrical teams. That will never be possible to balance, due to vents and the melee vs ranged aspect.
Also, General Discussion: <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=115904" target="_blank">Random spawns</a>
I'd like to see mappers given the ability to specify a set of potential hive/comm starting points (1 minimum). When starting the round, the game would choose from that set. So, if a map is designed to be totally random, then all possible combinations could be listed.
swalkSay hello to my little friend.Join Date: 2011-01-20Member: 78384Members, Squad Five Blue
edited January 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1897698:date=Jan 27 2012, 07:48 PM:name=Racer1)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Racer1 @ Jan 27 2012, 07:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1897698"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'd like to see mappers given the ability to specify a set of potential hive/comm starting points (1 minimum). When starting the round, the game would choose from that set. So, if a map is designed to be totally random, then all possible combinations could be listed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Mappers are already able to do so in the editor. But due to the design decision about random spawns, official mappers have to use completely random spawns now. That is the real problem.
swalkSay hello to my little friend.Join Date: 2011-01-20Member: 78384Members, Squad Five Blue
edited January 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1897711:date=Jan 27 2012, 09:01 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Jan 27 2012, 09:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1897711"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Erm, no they don't, I'm pretty sure summit cannot spawn you in crossroads, I've never seen it do that in any case.
Official mappers have to make good maps, UWE isn't some sort of insane bureucracy where the rules must be obeyed to the detriment of all else.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes the options are already available in the map editor. You can define marine spawns, alien spawns, both team spawns(not good for gameplay), and no team spawn tech points. And yes the official mappers are tied to UWE(Charlie)'s design decisions. That's probably reason #1 why random spawns are still implemented in their current form. And why we haven't seen more maps yet(reworking maps). <b>But</b> it is simply <b>impossible</b> to balance maps on a game with <b>asymmetrical teams</b>(melee vs ranged FPS), with the <b>same spawning locations</b>. It's the design decision that have to change, but it seems like Charlie doesn't reconize the problems stated in this thread(read his post), which worries me. UWE doesn't have alot(if any) time to do proper balance testing. That might be why they dont immediately reconize problems like this. That's another reason why they should get ahold of some active NS2 players with interest in helping UWE balancing the game. Alot of huge competetive titles does this, SC2, Dota2 etc. They use competetive players because it is the most effective way to balance a game properly. The developers don't have time for that amount of eccessive balance testing, nor the gaming skill to do so. Competetive players want a balanced game, and I'm sure they can find some active competetive NS2 players who would like to help with this.
The eclipse remake is a good way to get my point across. Is it random spawns? No. The decision is up to the mapper - In this case, he chose to savor the NS1 feel of random spawns between the 3 hive rooms for aliens, and a fixed marine start.
Removing random spawns alltogether is what someone who has put little thought into it might suggest, it's unneccisary. I would also like to point out that just a few posts down is pretty much the exact same topic.
Soul_RiderMod BeanJoin Date: 2004-06-19Member: 29388Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
It's like banging your head against a brick wall.
Instead of removing random spawns, why not remove random repeat topic posts from the forums?
Wait until maps designed around random spawns come out before you criticise the design decision. As a mapper, I love the choice it gives me, deciding where people can spawn.
My current map in development has 2 MS locations and 3 AS locations, they are all seperate, so no crossover, but I am sure this is just one of many maps under development which work this way.
This should not be in the game. I don't care if mappers have a choice for it or not. Alien hive was at random and ms was a fixed static spawn in ns1; something I loved so much about that game. Now it's changed and it doesn't feel the same AT ALL. The aliens should have the random advantage, it's apart of the game. Well, it was and still should be.
I'm fine with aliens having the random spawns, but ms being randomized has seemed to cause nothing but trouble.
<!--quoteo(post=1897863:date=Jan 28 2012, 03:42 AM:name=LV426-Colonist)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (LV426-Colonist @ Jan 28 2012, 03:42 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1897863"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->+1 to removing random 'marine spawns'.
This should not be in the game. I don't care if mappers have a choice for it or not. Alien hive was at random and ms was a fixed static spawn in ns1; something I loved so much about that game. Now it's changed and it doesn't feel the same AT ALL. The aliens should have the random advantage, it's apart of the game. Well, it was and still should be.
I'm fine with aliens having the random spawns, but ms being randomized has seemed to cause nothing but trouble.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree with you. The ms spawn shouldnt be randomized and their starting area should have good "cover" positions. <a href="http://upload.playstar.se/upload/NS2%202012-01-27%2021-31-02-43.png" target="_blank">This spawn for the ms is awesome. Easy to crush the skulk rushes.</a>
Soul_RiderMod BeanJoin Date: 2004-06-19Member: 29388Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1897863:date=Jan 28 2012, 10:42 AM:name=LV426-Colonist)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (LV426-Colonist @ Jan 28 2012, 10:42 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1897863"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->+1 to removing random 'marine spawns'.
This should not be in the game. I don't care if mappers have a choice for it or not. Alien hive was at random and ms was a fixed static spawn in ns1; something I loved so much about that game. Now it's changed and it doesn't feel the same AT ALL. The aliens should have the random advantage, it's apart of the game. Well, it was and still should be.
I'm fine with aliens having the random spawns, but ms being randomized has seemed to cause nothing but trouble.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1897864:date=Jan 28 2012, 11:00 AM:name=BuzterOne)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BuzterOne @ Jan 28 2012, 11:00 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1897864"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I agree with you. The ms spawn shouldnt be randomized and their starting area should have good "cover" positions. <a href="http://upload.playstar.se/upload/NS2%202012-01-27%2021-31-02-43.png" target="_blank">This spawn for the ms is awesome. Easy to crush the skulk rushes.</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1897857:date=Jan 28 2012, 10:28 AM:name=Soul_Rider)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Soul_Rider @ Jan 28 2012, 10:28 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1897857"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's like banging your head against a brick wall.
My current map in development has 2 MS locations and 3 AS locations, they are all seperate, so no crossover, but I am sure this is just one of many maps under development which work this way.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have random Marine starts +1 for random Marine Starts.
Wait until maps designed around random starts come out before you knock a decision. My Marine starts are exclusively for Marines. My Alien starts are exclusively for Aliens. Maps are taking time to come out because they are being reworked from the original fixed spawn designs, don't make us have to rework them AGAIN!
During NS1 everyone was looking forward to having random MS as well as random Aliens, now everyone is complaining before it's even been implemented properly in maps, jeez people are so changeable!!
swalkSay hello to my little friend.Join Date: 2011-01-20Member: 78384Members, Squad Five Blue
edited January 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1897857:date=Jan 28 2012, 10:28 AM:name=Soul_Rider)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Soul_Rider @ Jan 28 2012, 10:28 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1897857"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's like banging your head against a brick wall.
Instead of removing random spawns, why not remove random repeat topic posts from the forums?
Wait until maps designed around random spawns come out before you criticise the design decision. As a mapper, I love the choice it gives me, deciding where people can spawn.
My current map in development has 2 MS locations and 3 AS locations, they are all seperate, so no crossover, but I am sure this is just one of many maps under development which work this way.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm not criticizing random spawns as a feature. I'm criticizing the fact that both teams are able to spawn at the same locations. That map scenario sounds exciting, can't wait to see it =)
When i think of NS time line the MS should defend the first 5min atleast and then "move out". Dont like the maps when MS starts at a hell hole and there is entrys for aliens everywere.
Comments
I am assuming the idea of random spawns is to prevent the development of rush/lockdown strategies (although some good games in NS1 came from early hive lockdowns) and create unpredictability in the early game, but it is my opinion that some aspects of the development would be easier to keep tabs on if the spawns remained the same each time - e.g Aliens rushing the Warehouse spawn in Tram from Server Room (right next door) has in my experience almost always resulted in an alien victory - the players of that game <i>(many of them trying out their first couple of games after hearing that the development of the game was coming along pretty well)</i> would complain that Marines were way underpowered and this game was too confusing, etc. That kind of overwhelming unpredictability can be too much for new players (note: the only suggestion I am actually making here is to turn random spawns off, not make the game softer for newbies).
Fixed.
I genuinely think that random starts with all sorts of scenarios can work well - just that the current maps aren't well-designed for them.
So,
+1 remove random spawns from the current maps
-1 remove random spawns from the game
@Once_Only: I think it's less about making <b>the game</b> less predictable, but more about making <b>what the other team is doing</b> less predictable. Random starts means that at the start of the game you have to scout (which alone adds tension, <b>potentially</b> slows the pace of the early game, takes some time and entails personal risk), take in information, and adapt/create your strategy accordingly.
There will be maps that are like NS1, some random, and possibly even Alien fixed and Marine Random.
Could there (at some point later on) be some official way of cutting down the spawn combinations if a server wants to do so? Something like a server variable that either mapper set 'balanced spawns' or 'all spawns'.
It could easily get really messy if servers start creating their own spawn rules and nobody but the server regulars have a good idea of which combinations are possible on the particular server.
There will be maps that are like NS1, some random, and possibly even Alien fixed and Marine Random.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Having completely random spawns(both teams being able to spawn at same locations) is a design decision made by Charlie.
The official mappers doesn't have this choice at the moment, from what I know.
They have been set on the impossible task of making balanced random spawn maps, with asymmetrical teams.
That will never be possible to balance, due to vents and the melee vs ranged aspect.
Also, General Discussion:
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=115904" target="_blank">Random spawns</a>
Mappers are already able to do so in the editor.
But due to the design decision about random spawns, official mappers have to use completely random spawns now.
That is the real problem.
Official mappers have to make good maps, UWE isn't some sort of insane bureucracy where the rules must be obeyed to the detriment of all else.
Official mappers have to make good maps, UWE isn't some sort of insane bureucracy where the rules must be obeyed to the detriment of all else.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes the options are already available in the map editor.
You can define marine spawns, alien spawns, both team spawns(not good for gameplay), and no team spawn tech points.
And yes the official mappers are tied to UWE(Charlie)'s design decisions.
That's probably reason #1 why random spawns are still implemented in their current form.
And why we haven't seen more maps yet(reworking maps).
<b>But</b> it is simply <b>impossible</b> to balance maps on a game with <b>asymmetrical teams</b>(melee vs ranged FPS), with the <b>same spawning locations</b>.
It's the design decision that have to change, but it seems like Charlie doesn't reconize the problems stated in this thread(read his post), which worries me.
UWE doesn't have alot(if any) time to do proper balance testing. That might be why they dont immediately reconize problems like this.
That's another reason why they should get ahold of some active NS2 players with interest in helping UWE balancing the game.
Alot of huge competetive titles does this, SC2, Dota2 etc.
They use competetive players because it is the most effective way to balance a game properly.
The developers don't have time for that amount of eccessive balance testing, nor the gaming skill to do so.
Competetive players want a balanced game, and I'm sure they can find some active competetive NS2 players who would like to help with this.
Removing random spawns alltogether is what someone who has put little thought into it might suggest, it's unneccisary. I would also like to point out that just a few posts down is pretty much the exact same topic.
Instead of removing random spawns, why not remove random repeat topic posts from the forums?
Wait until maps designed around random spawns come out before you criticise the design decision. As a mapper, I love the choice it gives me, deciding where people can spawn.
My current map in development has 2 MS locations and 3 AS locations, they are all seperate, so no crossover, but I am sure this is just one of many maps under development which work this way.
This should not be in the game. I don't care if mappers have a choice for it or not. Alien hive was at random and ms was a fixed static spawn in ns1; something I loved so much about that game. Now it's changed and it doesn't feel the same AT ALL. The aliens should have the random advantage, it's apart of the game. Well, it was and still should be.
I'm fine with aliens having the random spawns, but ms being randomized has seemed to cause nothing but trouble.
This should not be in the game. I don't care if mappers have a choice for it or not. Alien hive was at random and ms was a fixed static spawn in ns1; something I loved so much about that game. Now it's changed and it doesn't feel the same AT ALL. The aliens should have the random advantage, it's apart of the game. Well, it was and still should be.
I'm fine with aliens having the random spawns, but ms being randomized has seemed to cause nothing but trouble.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree with you. The ms spawn shouldnt be randomized and their starting area should have good "cover" positions.
<a href="http://upload.playstar.se/upload/NS2%202012-01-27%2021-31-02-43.png" target="_blank">This spawn for the ms is awesome. Easy to crush the skulk rushes.</a>
This should not be in the game. I don't care if mappers have a choice for it or not. Alien hive was at random and ms was a fixed static spawn in ns1; something I loved so much about that game. Now it's changed and it doesn't feel the same AT ALL. The aliens should have the random advantage, it's apart of the game. Well, it was and still should be.
I'm fine with aliens having the random spawns, but ms being randomized has seemed to cause nothing but trouble.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1897864:date=Jan 28 2012, 11:00 AM:name=BuzterOne)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BuzterOne @ Jan 28 2012, 11:00 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1897864"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I agree with you. The ms spawn shouldnt be randomized and their starting area should have good "cover" positions.
<a href="http://upload.playstar.se/upload/NS2%202012-01-27%2021-31-02-43.png" target="_blank">This spawn for the ms is awesome. Easy to crush the skulk rushes.</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1897857:date=Jan 28 2012, 10:28 AM:name=Soul_Rider)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Soul_Rider @ Jan 28 2012, 10:28 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1897857"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's like banging your head against a brick wall.
My current map in development has 2 MS locations and 3 AS locations, they are all seperate, so no crossover, but I am sure this is just one of many maps under development which work this way.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have random Marine starts +1 for random Marine Starts.
Wait until maps designed around random starts come out before you knock a decision. My Marine starts are exclusively for Marines. My Alien starts are exclusively for Aliens. Maps are taking time to come out because they are being reworked from the original fixed spawn designs, don't make us have to rework them AGAIN!
During NS1 everyone was looking forward to having random MS as well as random Aliens, now everyone is complaining before it's even been implemented properly in maps, jeez people are so changeable!!
Instead of removing random spawns, why not remove random repeat topic posts from the forums?
Wait until maps designed around random spawns come out before you criticise the design decision. As a mapper, I love the choice it gives me, deciding where people can spawn.
My current map in development has 2 MS locations and 3 AS locations, they are all seperate, so no crossover, but I am sure this is just one of many maps under development which work this way.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not criticizing random spawns as a feature.
I'm criticizing the fact that both teams are able to spawn at the same locations.
That map scenario sounds exciting, can't wait to see it =)
Dont like the maps when MS starts at a hell hole and there is entrys for aliens everywere.