Drifters always get stuck on the left staircase in alien start (or the old alien start). They have to be micromanaged away from that spot. Not sure if this is something you can fix.
<!--quoteo(post=1887297:date=Nov 28 2011, 06:14 AM:name=Yuuki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Yuuki @ Nov 28 2011, 06:14 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1887297"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think that some people reporting muffled sound (hard to hear footstep, ..) might be due to this.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No. It's hard to hear gunfire, it's hard to hear explosions, it's hard to hear ambient sounds, it's hard to hear biting, it's hard to hear ANYTHING except for voice comms(to which no DSP effects are being applied).
Imagine being stuck in a ventilation duct under 5 feet of water and you have a good representation of how farked up the sound is if you are experiencing this bug. Curiously it does seem to have some kind of dependence on where you are in the map; for instance, at the crevice RT you can hear absolutely nothing except for voice comms.
Soul_RiderMod BeanJoin Date: 2004-06-19Member: 29388Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited January 2012
Originally posted in another thread..
After a few hours of gaming an issue with the random spawn came to light. Currently, aliens starting in sub access have no way of getting out of the hive to attack marines, other than the primary routes.
I know this is down to mapping guidelines which are not designed for random spawns. Aliens need vent routes in ALL of their potential hive locations, because coming out of a hive through the primary route is suicide for the smaller aliens. Mapping guidelines say the marine spawn can have no vents in it. These rules are fine, but get broken immediately with random spawns. This could be solved in Summit for example by adding vents to all tech points except sub access, and making sub access a fixed marine start. This is going to cause a huge number of balance issues as long as there is no vent route out of the hive.
Currently, SA is a no go for an alien expansion if you want to hold your expanded hive.
swalkSay hello to my little friend.Join Date: 2011-01-20Member: 78384Members, Squad Five Blue
edited January 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1894504:date=Jan 15 2012, 12:37 AM:name=Soul_Rider)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Soul_Rider @ Jan 15 2012, 12:37 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1894504"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Originally posted in another thread..
After a few hours of gaming an issue with the random spawn came to light. Currently, aliens starting in sub access have no way of getting out of the hive to attack marines, other than the primary routes.
I know this is down to mapping guidelines which are not designed for random spawns. Aliens need vent routes in ALL of their potential hive locations, because coming out of a hive through the primary route is suicide for the smaller aliens. Mapping guidelines say the marine spawn can have no vents in it. These rules are fine, but get broken immediately with random spawns. This could be solved in Summit for example by adding vents to all tech points except sub access, and making sub access a fixed marine start. This is going to cause a huge number of balance issues as long as there is no vent route out of the hive.
Currently, SA is a no go for an alien expansion if you want to hold your expanded hive.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is very true, I stated the same problem earlier in this thread but was kindly ignored, also stated the problems in my <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=115904" target="_blank">Random spawns thread</a>. The problems should be very obvious for players who play the game often. <b>Random spawns, in the case where both teams are able to spawn at the same locations, will never work because of this.</b> It's due to vents and hiding spots near the tech points, the game is melee vs ranged, and UWE are directly going against their own mapping guidelines and making the maps heavily imbalanced because of the current implemetation of random spawns. <b>Teams are asymmetrical, spawns should be asymmetrical.</b> I imagine summit becoming something like this: Aliens in atrium or data core, and marines on the other side of the map in either sub access or flight control. <b>Sub vs Atrium or FC vs DC.</b> The vents will need some reworking, same with the flight control area. <b>It's about hiding spots/vents for aliens and LOS blocking for marines.</b> You can also take the best NS1 maps as examples, you almost never saw a hive location without vents leading somewhere, and there was no vents in marine spawns.
And how about giving all techpoints vents, wich can be welded shut by the marines from inside the techpoint? (so marines can defend their base, but not block aliens inside their base)
swalkSay hello to my little friend.Join Date: 2011-01-20Member: 78384Members, Squad Five Blue
edited January 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1897473:date=Jan 26 2012, 06:45 PM:name=subshadow)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (subshadow @ Jan 26 2012, 06:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1897473"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And how about giving all techpoints vents, wich can be welded shut by the marines from inside the techpoint? (so marines can defend their base, but not block aliens inside their base)
The welder will arrive soon.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That would force marines to research welders as the first thing in the game. And they still might not even be able to weld it before the skulks arrive.
The idea would also scale badly with player numbers, as in smaller games(6v6) it would require the marines to be way too defensive and wait for the vents to be welded before they can proceed to get map control.
That adds more forced interaction time, marines already have to build powernodes before they can get buildings up in a new room. If you compare the marines interaction time with NS1, powernodes vs no powernodes. It adds alot of delay to marine strategies. Even though the powernode is at first build on 5 seconds, it takes a long time for marines to re-take an area. Not to mention aliens have to take it down. The interaction time powernodes add is way too large, and it makes no sense to get them down unless there is turrets in the area. Destroy the structures, marines lose resources, if power goes down they can just recycle everything in the room. Or to delay marines in re-taking it.
Maybe it could work if the vents in marine starts were welded from gamestart.
twilitebluebug stalkerJoin Date: 2003-02-04Member: 13116Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited January 2012
(Edited) I believe vents in random spawn can be balanced by one simple rule: by placing vents inside tech rooms near normal doorways. So Marines defending the room can guard both the doorway and the vent simultaneously.
This way, when aliens control the room, they are not easily cornered in by Marines camping outside. On the other hand, Marines defending the room don't have to worry about aliens sneaking in their bases all the time.
<!--quoteo(post=1897593:date=Jan 27 2012, 03:56 AM:name=twiliteblue)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (twiliteblue @ Jan 27 2012, 03:56 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1897593"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I believe vents in random spawn can be balanced by one simple rule: by placing vents near normal doorways, so Marines can guard both the doorway and the vent simultaneously.
This way, aliens are not easily cornered in their Hives, while Marines don't have to worry about aliens sneaking in their bases all the time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What's the point of the vent then if it's right next to the doorway?
pSyk0mAnNerdish by NatureGermanyJoin Date: 2003-08-07Member: 19166Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Community Developer
I think he means a vent that enables marines to snipe into and cover both exits, if they start at that location, while at the same time forces marines to move into that hive location to cut off aliens using that vent for flanking, which should make marines more vulnerable. This doesn't necessarily solve the problem of being locked in as aliens though.
twilitebluebug stalkerJoin Date: 2003-02-04Member: 13116Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1897614:date=Jan 26 2012, 11:27 PM:name=pSyk0mAn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (pSyk0mAn @ Jan 26 2012, 11:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1897614"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think he means a vent that enables marines to snipe into and cover both exits, if they start at that location, while at the same time forces marines to move into that hive location to cut off aliens using that vent for flanking, which should make marines more vulnerable. This doesn't necessarily solve the problem of being locked in as aliens though.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> psykoman you get my idea. My wording could have been better.
As for aliens being locked in, the vents do not have to be directly adjacent to doorways. They just have to be visible from locations where the doorway can be watched.
I hope the game could be balanced so that, an entire team of aliens should be able to break a siege on one entrance (while a tech room has 2 entrances and at least 1 vent). So the Marines will never be able to completely seal off a Hive room.
Vladimir Van VodkaSexy BeastJoin Date: 2010-07-30Member: 73364Members, Reinforced - Shadow
Is there any way to make <b>atrium</b> somewhat sustainable for marines?
I'm not sure about you guys, but it's a complete nightmare to defend as a random marine start. every single time I play as marine and it ends up being our start, it's an instant GG for aliens, other then that the other tech points are balanced it seems.
and yes; we do sometimes try to relocate, but it's not as easy as you think.
<!--quoteo(post=1888311:date=Dec 4 2011, 09:09 AM:name=konata)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (konata @ Dec 4 2011, 09:09 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1888311"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Balance is impossible to achieve without a feature complete game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
twilitebluebug stalkerJoin Date: 2003-02-04Member: 13116Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1897825:date=Jan 27 2012, 08:29 PM:name=Keter Class)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Keter Class @ Jan 27 2012, 08:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1897825"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Where exactly is the link to download this fine looking map? I cant find it in the original post at all, I must be blind.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Summit is one of the official maps already included in NS2.
pSyk0mAnNerdish by NatureGermanyJoin Date: 2003-08-07Member: 19166Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Community Developer
<!--quoteo(post=1897666:date=Jan 27 2012, 05:18 PM:name=Vladimir Van Vodka)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Vladimir Van Vodka @ Jan 27 2012, 05:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1897666"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Is there any way to make <b>atrium</b> somewhat sustainable for marines?
I'm not sure about you guys, but it's a complete nightmare to defend as a random marine start. ...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think there are a few issues that come together, which makes Atrium difficult for marines. -The tight space around the techpoint. -Res node position adding to that just like the "bar" and the pillars, which all can be used for cover by attacking skulks even if it only buys a second for another skulk or a few wasted bullets. -The high platform makes it easy for skulks to move into the base without notice at least from Reactor side with the nearby entrance. -Alien biased res location Reactor and contorted, narrow corridor leading to it. -Long vents from the center of the map leading to that location.
Anything else?
I think there are a few things that can be done, that won't alter the area and a possible alien start too much. -Make the "bar" some kind of storage room, which only provides space, no cover. -Move the res node on the middle, slightly lower platform (that was actually the plan in beta1 of Summit, but the hive infestation couldn't reach the node due to the height difference)
Also make sure the commander doesn't put structures around the command station. I see it all the time and it helps skulks a lot once they are in the base.
Soul_RiderMod BeanJoin Date: 2004-06-19Member: 29388Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
It's that height difference which causes pustule placement issues too. Comming in Atrium as alien wastes quite a bit of energy getting down the stairs to each side and out of the hive, despite the fact the max range of the pustule goes out past the hive towards the exits.
Also aliens starting in SA get a hard time because of the lack of vents. It's normally gg to marines unless the aliens can get out to a 2nd hive quickly enough, generally only if MS is atrium :)
swalkSay hello to my little friend.Join Date: 2011-01-20Member: 78384Members, Squad Five Blue
edited February 2012
I'm really disappointed with the new vent in sub access, it's the direct opposite of what summit needs. After one game on summit, no one on the ensl gathers wanted to play it anymore because of this. I know I have said this alot, but I feel that it is not getting through: You gotta make two tech points marine friendly, and two alien friendly. And have the teams spawn at those locations. It's not feasable to have both teams spawn at the same location, due to vent systems. The new vent is directly against the mapping guidelines(or at least should be in the mapping guidelines, if it isnt). I would suggest: <ul><li>Removing the new vent in Sub Access</li><li>Make marine spawns in Sub Access and Flight Control</li><li>Make alien spawns in Atrium and Data Core</li><li>Removing the vent leading into Flight Control</li><li>Reworking Flight Control area, too much LOS blocking/hiding spots for a marine starting location.</li></ul>
And then there is the other problem of spawning too close. UWE will need to implement a distance requirement, at least for summit and maps alike. It should be optional for mappers, and they should put the distance manually so it fits more scenarios. So you can make teams spawn across the map instead of close to each other.
I think summit is best with static spawns. Starting in DC and FC just doesn't work very well and close spawns create all sorts of problems. It was much more fun before the random spawns were added.
DghelneshiAims to surpass Fana in post edits.Join Date: 2011-11-01Member: 130634Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
edited February 2012
Very much agreed @ swalk and Wilson. Competitive players would want the static spawns anyway, but even public games and players suffer a lot from random spawns. People can't really learn how to actually play the game if the spawns are close, because it's 9 out of 10 players just rushing at each other, playing team deathmatch, while 1-2 marines cap all the res nodes on the map uncontested and then they grind down the aliens with massive tech.
swalkSay hello to my little friend.Join Date: 2011-01-20Member: 78384Members, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1901788:date=Feb 10 2012, 02:31 PM:name=Dghelneshi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dghelneshi @ Feb 10 2012, 02:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1901788"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Competitive players would want the static spawns anyway, but even public games and players suffer a lot from random spawns. People can't really learn how to actually play the game if the spawns are close, because it's 9 out of 10 players just rushing at each other, playing team deathmatch, while 1-2 marines cap all the res nodes on the map uncontested and then they grind down the aliens with massive tech.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This also worries me, the game currently encourages marines to turtle. Especially with the close spawns, aliens can easily box marines in due to short walking distances and their superior movement. Vents in starting positions makes it impossible for marines to move out and get map control. Marines have to keep walking back to base due to skulks just passing the marines and going directly for base structures, via vents. That causes alot of marine losses that should have been wins.
-make sub access marine static spawn -alien random spawns at data core, flight control, atrium -extend distance between tech points -remove vents leading into sub access -remove tech point at crossroads -change crossroads to double res
DghelneshiAims to surpass Fana in post edits.Join Date: 2011-11-01Member: 130634Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
@LV426-Colonist: That would be a whole new map, which isn't really the best suggestion, as pSyk0mAn will definitely not redesign the whole map again after such a long time. The map is not totally broken, it's mostly random spawns and the vent into sub breaking gameplay.
I don't exactly know how welding doors and vents will work once it's implemented, but that might resolve at least the vent issues in marine starting locations.
<!--quoteo(post=1904835:date=Feb 19 2012, 12:19 PM:name=Dghelneshi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dghelneshi @ Feb 19 2012, 12:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1904835"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->@LV426-Colonist: That would be a whole new map, which isn't really the best suggestion<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
swalkSay hello to my little friend.Join Date: 2011-01-20Member: 78384Members, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1904995:date=Feb 20 2012, 04:44 AM:name=LV426-Colonist)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (LV426-Colonist @ Feb 20 2012, 04:44 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1904995"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->@Dghelneshi: How is that a whole new map?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Because you would need to rework the distances from Data Core and Flight Control, to the marine base in Sub Access. They are currently way too close to be good spawning locations. Your idea is how NS1 maps worked, and the hives in ns1 usually had about the same distance to the marine base. Although the same base-to-base distance problem was also evident in NS1 on some maps, Waste hive in tanith for example.
Comments
No. It's hard to hear gunfire, it's hard to hear explosions, it's hard to hear ambient sounds, it's hard to hear biting, it's hard to hear ANYTHING except for voice comms(to which no DSP effects are being applied).
Imagine being stuck in a ventilation duct under 5 feet of water and you have a good representation of how farked up the sound is if you are experiencing this bug. Curiously it does seem to have some kind of dependence on where you are in the map; for instance, at the crevice RT you can hear absolutely nothing except for voice comms.
After a few hours of gaming an issue with the random spawn came to light. Currently, aliens starting in sub access have no way of getting out of the hive to attack marines, other than the primary routes.
I know this is down to mapping guidelines which are not designed for random spawns. Aliens need vent routes in ALL of their potential hive locations, because coming out of a hive through the primary route is suicide for the smaller aliens. Mapping guidelines say the marine spawn can have no vents in it. These rules are fine, but get broken immediately with random spawns. This could be solved in Summit for example by adding vents to all tech points except sub access, and making sub access a fixed marine start. This is going to cause a huge number of balance issues as long as there is no vent route out of the hive.
Currently, SA is a no go for an alien expansion if you want to hold your expanded hive.
After a few hours of gaming an issue with the random spawn came to light. Currently, aliens starting in sub access have no way of getting out of the hive to attack marines, other than the primary routes.
I know this is down to mapping guidelines which are not designed for random spawns. Aliens need vent routes in ALL of their potential hive locations, because coming out of a hive through the primary route is suicide for the smaller aliens. Mapping guidelines say the marine spawn can have no vents in it. These rules are fine, but get broken immediately with random spawns. This could be solved in Summit for example by adding vents to all tech points except sub access, and making sub access a fixed marine start. This is going to cause a huge number of balance issues as long as there is no vent route out of the hive.
Currently, SA is a no go for an alien expansion if you want to hold your expanded hive.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is very true, I stated the same problem earlier in this thread but was kindly ignored, also stated the problems in my <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=115904" target="_blank">Random spawns thread</a>. The problems should be very obvious for players who play the game often.
<b>Random spawns, in the case where both teams are able to spawn at the same locations, will never work because of this.</b>
It's due to vents and hiding spots near the tech points, the game is melee vs ranged, and UWE are directly going against their own mapping guidelines and making the maps heavily imbalanced because of the current implemetation of random spawns.
<b>Teams are asymmetrical, spawns should be asymmetrical.</b>
I imagine summit becoming something like this:
Aliens in atrium or data core, and marines on the other side of the map in either sub access or flight control. <b>Sub vs Atrium or FC vs DC.</b>
The vents will need some reworking, same with the flight control area.
<b>It's about hiding spots/vents for aliens and LOS blocking for marines.</b>
You can also take the best NS1 maps as examples, you almost never saw a hive location without vents leading somewhere, and there was no vents in marine spawns.
The welder will arrive soon.
The welder will arrive soon.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That would force marines to research welders as the first thing in the game.
And they still might not even be able to weld it before the skulks arrive.
The idea would also scale badly with player numbers, as in smaller games(6v6) it would require the marines to be way too defensive and wait for the vents to be welded before they can proceed to get map control.
That adds more forced interaction time, marines already have to build powernodes before they can get buildings up in a new room.
If you compare the marines interaction time with NS1, powernodes vs no powernodes.
It adds alot of delay to marine strategies.
Even though the powernode is at first build on 5 seconds, it takes a long time for marines to re-take an area.
Not to mention aliens have to take it down.
The interaction time powernodes add is way too large, and it makes no sense to get them down unless there is turrets in the area.
Destroy the structures, marines lose resources, if power goes down they can just recycle everything in the room.
Or to delay marines in re-taking it.
Maybe it could work if the vents in marine starts were welded from gamestart.
I believe vents in random spawn can be balanced by one simple rule: by placing vents inside tech rooms near normal doorways. So Marines defending the room can guard both the doorway and the vent simultaneously.
This way, when aliens control the room, they are not easily cornered in by Marines camping outside. On the other hand, Marines defending the room don't have to worry about aliens sneaking in their bases all the time.
This way, aliens are not easily cornered in their Hives, while Marines don't have to worry about aliens sneaking in their bases all the time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What's the point of the vent then if it's right next to the doorway?
while at the same time forces marines to move into that hive location to cut off aliens using that vent for flanking, which should make marines more vulnerable.
This doesn't necessarily solve the problem of being locked in as aliens though.
while at the same time forces marines to move into that hive location to cut off aliens using that vent for flanking, which should make marines more vulnerable.
This doesn't necessarily solve the problem of being locked in as aliens though.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
psykoman you get my idea. My wording could have been better.
As for aliens being locked in, the vents do not have to be directly adjacent to doorways. They just have to be visible from locations where the doorway can be watched.
I hope the game could be balanced so that, an entire team of aliens should be able to break a siege on one entrance (while a tech room has 2 entrances and at least 1 vent). So the Marines will never be able to completely seal off a Hive room.
I'm not sure about you guys, but it's a complete nightmare to defend as a random marine start.
every single time I play as marine and it ends up being our start, it's an instant GG for aliens, other then that the other tech points are balanced it seems.
and yes; we do sometimes try to relocate, but it's not as easy as you think.
+1, QFT
Summit is one of the official maps already included in NS2.
I'm not sure about you guys, but it's a complete nightmare to defend as a random marine start.
...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think there are a few issues that come together, which makes Atrium difficult for marines.
-The tight space around the techpoint.
-Res node position adding to that just like the "bar" and the pillars, which all can be used for cover by attacking skulks even if it only buys a second for another skulk or a few wasted bullets.
-The high platform makes it easy for skulks to move into the base without notice at least from Reactor side with the nearby entrance.
-Alien biased res location Reactor and contorted, narrow corridor leading to it.
-Long vents from the center of the map leading to that location.
Anything else?
I think there are a few things that can be done, that won't alter the area and a possible alien start too much.
-Make the "bar" some kind of storage room, which only provides space, no cover.
-Move the res node on the middle, slightly lower platform (that was actually the plan in beta1 of Summit, but the hive infestation couldn't reach the node due to the height difference)
Also make sure the commander doesn't put structures around the command station. I see it all the time and it helps skulks a lot once they are in the base.
Also aliens starting in SA get a hard time because of the lack of vents. It's normally gg to marines unless the aliens can get out to a 2nd hive quickly enough, generally only if MS is atrium :)
After one game on summit, no one on the ensl gathers wanted to play it anymore because of this.
I know I have said this alot, but I feel that it is not getting through:
You gotta make two tech points marine friendly, and two alien friendly. And have the teams spawn at those locations.
It's not feasable to have both teams spawn at the same location, due to vent systems.
The new vent is directly against the mapping guidelines(or at least should be in the mapping guidelines, if it isnt).
I would suggest:
<ul><li>Removing the new vent in Sub Access</li><li>Make marine spawns in Sub Access and Flight Control</li><li>Make alien spawns in Atrium and Data Core</li><li>Removing the vent leading into Flight Control</li><li>Reworking Flight Control area, too much LOS blocking/hiding spots for a marine starting location.</li></ul>
And then there is the other problem of spawning too close.
UWE will need to implement a distance requirement, at least for summit and maps alike.
It should be optional for mappers, and they should put the distance manually so it fits more scenarios.
So you can make teams spawn across the map instead of close to each other.
Competitive players would want the static spawns anyway, but even public games and players suffer a lot from random spawns. People can't really learn how to actually play the game if the spawns are close, because it's 9 out of 10 players just rushing at each other, playing team deathmatch, while 1-2 marines cap all the res nodes on the map uncontested and then they grind down the aliens with massive tech.
This also worries me, the game currently encourages marines to turtle.
Especially with the close spawns, aliens can easily box marines in due to short walking distances and their superior movement.
Vents in starting positions makes it impossible for marines to move out and get map control.
Marines have to keep walking back to base due to skulks just passing the marines and going directly for base structures, via vents.
That causes alot of marine losses that should have been wins.
-make sub access marine static spawn
-alien random spawns at data core, flight control, atrium
-extend distance between tech points
-remove vents leading into sub access
-remove tech point at crossroads
-change crossroads to double res
<!--quoteo(post=1904835:date=Feb 19 2012, 12:19 PM:name=Dghelneshi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dghelneshi @ Feb 19 2012, 12:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1904835"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->@LV426-Colonist: That would be a whole new map, which isn't really the best suggestion<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because you would need to rework the distances from Data Core and Flight Control, to the marine base in Sub Access.
They are currently way too close to be good spawning locations.
Your idea is how NS1 maps worked, and the hives in ns1 usually had about the same distance to the marine base.
Although the same base-to-base distance problem was also evident in NS1 on some maps, Waste hive in tanith for example.