Decreasing Mine Cost To Increase Mine Effectiveness
vilindu
Join Date: 2011-07-11 Member: 109756Members
Join Date: 2011-07-11 Member: 109756Members
<div class="IPBDescription">...and one other suggestion! ^_^</div>Hello Developers!
I've been playing a few pub games since Build 193 came out and I was observing mine use, as well as Marine gameplay progression in general. So, I'd like to share my thoughts on both subjects.
I've noticed is that Marines typically begin games by focusing on building initial base structures/initial research (2 IP's, 1 armory, and 1 research into shotguns), as well as having a couple marines branch out to claim nearby nodes for resource gathering (or having half/most marines scout out all areas of the map for the Alien base) while the rest build the base structures. Skulk rushes were very common and very effective in this early game process. The few marines that did go out died quickly, gaining the aliens early map control. Then, the skulks would rush on to the Marine base (typically in full force as 1:1, marine:skulk usually favors the skulk and most marine scouts died), forcing all marines spread on the map back to base just to save their base or risk having their base fall due to slow marine spawning and the commander leaving the chair to fight off the skulks. If the marines do survive this first wave, it seemed as if 1 building was always taken down while the marines slowly spawn back to life. Meanwhile, as this initial rush is occurring, the Alien Commander is able to claim resource nodes on his side with his harvesters untouched due to the early game map control and with resources feeding in steadily while the marines attempt to save their base, lick their wounds, and spend what little resources they have just coming back from the rush attack. Alien spawning still seems faster than marine spawning, allowing what seems to be wave after wave of rushing while the marines attempt to claim their first nodes with their shotguns being the only means of giving them a fighting chance. Mines could be used in this instance to defend the base and I did see time to time that they were being used. However, even with all the fighting marines buying mines and placing them around their base (12 or so), they'd all typically explode after one skulk ran over one, leaving a few undesirable, ineffective mine placements intact. The rest of the skulks (perhaps lerks as well) would then continue their offensive with the pressure on the marines being continually immense while the Alien commander is still able to accumulate resources and build while the marines struggle time and again. Due to this early game process, marines are pressured to be extremely skilled shooters who must continually defend just to survive, much less win the game. Nothing gives marines an advantage in this early game, which is the building block for the rest of the game. It leads to increasing frustration and lack of incentive to play as a Marine (as any decent/good players who did exist on the marine team inevitably jumped on the chance at being alien). Sure, building one's skills as a marine is always good and the marines shouldn't be given any overwhelming advantages (stat-wise or through unfair features). However, the way it seems at the moment for the early game, the marines must be ungodly sharpshooters, who can eliminate every skulk or lerk at first sight, which is unrealistic.
My proposition to remedy this situation and balance the game enough to give the marines a fair chance is to reduce the cost of mines for purchase to 5 and give the commander the ability to lay 1 mine from the assist menu at the cost of 5 (energy, is it? not team res or personal res, but that third one?) per mine. My reasoning is this: not only will the reduced cost encourage mine use (instead of always defaulting to shotgun research at the beginning just to survive) but it will give the marines a fighting chance against early skulk rush waves. Also, when the few marines at the beginning spread out and try to claim nearby nodes (usually, 1 or 2 marines would be at a node, die to skulks, and the unfinished RT would be destroyed before recycling could occur properly, leading to wasted marine resources while harvesters are untouched) the commander could lay a few well-positioned mines around the RT or near entryways to give the initial RTs a better chance at survival. Of course, we wish to avoid marine commander mine spam, thus my earlier suggestion that the assist mine cost should be 5 "energy" (games for marine commander start with around 40 "energy", correct?). Also, the arrival of more mines will discourage the "skulk rush" agenda being the go-to alien strategy at the beginning of the game and the aliens will be forced to take more strategic stances since the marines will be more fortified and will be able to finally induce early offensive strategies. Another reason for the cheaper mine cost is that close proximity mines typically blow up together (which leads to a sure death for the alien passing over them). The downside is that all of them blew up for their one song glory and the rest of the backup aliens will steamroll through. So, the ability to buy more mines is needed.
If there are concerns about commander ability mine placement in the beginning of game (putting mines over nearby alien nodes, walling in aliens into their base), please be reminded that skulks can climb on walls and that infestation destroys mines. So, if a commander attempts to block off a node, the growing infestation from the pustules leading up to a node will free up the node before a harvester is placed (also, marine commanders shouldn't be able to place mines over infestation as it is a waste of resources since the mines will blow up). Also, the increase mine usage will encourage gorge usage at the beginning of the game as well due to the gorges ability to shoot the mines with their spit as opposed to being just used for defending harvesters with hydras. This increased gorge usage will also decrease the amount of skulks for skulk rushing, once again discouraging the go-to skulk rushes. Lerk usage might increase as well to gain an advantage over these mines, but at cost of personal res for each alien that becomes a lerk. This can be akin to marines buying shotguns and losing them in death. However, the advantage of another teammate marine being able to pick up the fallen shotgun counter-balances the lerk's high mobility and difficulty to hit, thus forcing aliens to spend more personal res and marines spending less personal res (instead of marines constant spending team res and personal res just trying to survive at the beginning). The early game gets much more balanced with this simple mine modification.
Hopefully, you all didn't get bored by my rather long suggestion, but I wanted to logically and fully detail why I think the change should occur. Please let me know if you concur. ^_^ Thanks for your patience! -- Vilindu (aka DeathCount)
I've been playing a few pub games since Build 193 came out and I was observing mine use, as well as Marine gameplay progression in general. So, I'd like to share my thoughts on both subjects.
I've noticed is that Marines typically begin games by focusing on building initial base structures/initial research (2 IP's, 1 armory, and 1 research into shotguns), as well as having a couple marines branch out to claim nearby nodes for resource gathering (or having half/most marines scout out all areas of the map for the Alien base) while the rest build the base structures. Skulk rushes were very common and very effective in this early game process. The few marines that did go out died quickly, gaining the aliens early map control. Then, the skulks would rush on to the Marine base (typically in full force as 1:1, marine:skulk usually favors the skulk and most marine scouts died), forcing all marines spread on the map back to base just to save their base or risk having their base fall due to slow marine spawning and the commander leaving the chair to fight off the skulks. If the marines do survive this first wave, it seemed as if 1 building was always taken down while the marines slowly spawn back to life. Meanwhile, as this initial rush is occurring, the Alien Commander is able to claim resource nodes on his side with his harvesters untouched due to the early game map control and with resources feeding in steadily while the marines attempt to save their base, lick their wounds, and spend what little resources they have just coming back from the rush attack. Alien spawning still seems faster than marine spawning, allowing what seems to be wave after wave of rushing while the marines attempt to claim their first nodes with their shotguns being the only means of giving them a fighting chance. Mines could be used in this instance to defend the base and I did see time to time that they were being used. However, even with all the fighting marines buying mines and placing them around their base (12 or so), they'd all typically explode after one skulk ran over one, leaving a few undesirable, ineffective mine placements intact. The rest of the skulks (perhaps lerks as well) would then continue their offensive with the pressure on the marines being continually immense while the Alien commander is still able to accumulate resources and build while the marines struggle time and again. Due to this early game process, marines are pressured to be extremely skilled shooters who must continually defend just to survive, much less win the game. Nothing gives marines an advantage in this early game, which is the building block for the rest of the game. It leads to increasing frustration and lack of incentive to play as a Marine (as any decent/good players who did exist on the marine team inevitably jumped on the chance at being alien). Sure, building one's skills as a marine is always good and the marines shouldn't be given any overwhelming advantages (stat-wise or through unfair features). However, the way it seems at the moment for the early game, the marines must be ungodly sharpshooters, who can eliminate every skulk or lerk at first sight, which is unrealistic.
My proposition to remedy this situation and balance the game enough to give the marines a fair chance is to reduce the cost of mines for purchase to 5 and give the commander the ability to lay 1 mine from the assist menu at the cost of 5 (energy, is it? not team res or personal res, but that third one?) per mine. My reasoning is this: not only will the reduced cost encourage mine use (instead of always defaulting to shotgun research at the beginning just to survive) but it will give the marines a fighting chance against early skulk rush waves. Also, when the few marines at the beginning spread out and try to claim nearby nodes (usually, 1 or 2 marines would be at a node, die to skulks, and the unfinished RT would be destroyed before recycling could occur properly, leading to wasted marine resources while harvesters are untouched) the commander could lay a few well-positioned mines around the RT or near entryways to give the initial RTs a better chance at survival. Of course, we wish to avoid marine commander mine spam, thus my earlier suggestion that the assist mine cost should be 5 "energy" (games for marine commander start with around 40 "energy", correct?). Also, the arrival of more mines will discourage the "skulk rush" agenda being the go-to alien strategy at the beginning of the game and the aliens will be forced to take more strategic stances since the marines will be more fortified and will be able to finally induce early offensive strategies. Another reason for the cheaper mine cost is that close proximity mines typically blow up together (which leads to a sure death for the alien passing over them). The downside is that all of them blew up for their one song glory and the rest of the backup aliens will steamroll through. So, the ability to buy more mines is needed.
If there are concerns about commander ability mine placement in the beginning of game (putting mines over nearby alien nodes, walling in aliens into their base), please be reminded that skulks can climb on walls and that infestation destroys mines. So, if a commander attempts to block off a node, the growing infestation from the pustules leading up to a node will free up the node before a harvester is placed (also, marine commanders shouldn't be able to place mines over infestation as it is a waste of resources since the mines will blow up). Also, the increase mine usage will encourage gorge usage at the beginning of the game as well due to the gorges ability to shoot the mines with their spit as opposed to being just used for defending harvesters with hydras. This increased gorge usage will also decrease the amount of skulks for skulk rushing, once again discouraging the go-to skulk rushes. Lerk usage might increase as well to gain an advantage over these mines, but at cost of personal res for each alien that becomes a lerk. This can be akin to marines buying shotguns and losing them in death. However, the advantage of another teammate marine being able to pick up the fallen shotgun counter-balances the lerk's high mobility and difficulty to hit, thus forcing aliens to spend more personal res and marines spending less personal res (instead of marines constant spending team res and personal res just trying to survive at the beginning). The early game gets much more balanced with this simple mine modification.
Hopefully, you all didn't get bored by my rather long suggestion, but I wanted to logically and fully detail why I think the change should occur. Please let me know if you concur. ^_^ Thanks for your patience! -- Vilindu (aka DeathCount)
Comments
- Obvious solution is to fix the spawn times:
e.g.
<!--quoteo(post=1897569:date=Jan 27 2012, 09:51 AM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Jan 27 2012, 09:51 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1897569"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What about this, instead:
+ An alien dies, they get sent into the spawn queue.
+ Each alien must wait a minimum of 8 seconds before being able to spawn, and their personal spawn timer starts once the alien previously in the spawn queue has spawned. Basically the same as the IP.
+ There is one queue per hive * (analogous to 1 IP per CC). Players enter the least populated queue first. (Although queues are linked to hives, this does not mean that you will spawn at a particular hive based on what queue you are in.)
+ Aliens should, as now, be able to choose when to actually spawn, as long as there are eggs.
-> So if you had 3 hives (queue 1, queue 2, queue 3), and 6 players all died "at the same time", then you would fill queue 1, then queue 2, then queue 3, then queue 1, then queue 2, then queue 3; so in each queue there would be two players (16 seconds to spawn the lot).
-> So if there are 2 hives and 2 aliens died within a second of each other, they could both spawn within a second of each other, after each waiting the minimum 8 seconds.
-> So if you had 6 aliens in the spawn queue with 1 hive (queue 1 only), then each would have to wait 8 seconds, meaning 48 seconds to spawn the lot.
-> As long as there are eggs, in any of these cases, aliens could choose to postpone spawning so that they could all spawn in at the same time. However, the minimum time required to do so would be 8*ceiling(number of players/number of hives).
e.g. 5 dead aliens, 1 hive : Minimum time to spawn the lot at once = 8*ceiling(5/1) = 8*5 = 40 seconds.
e.g. 5 dead aliens, 2 hives: Minimum time to spawn the lot at once = 8*ceiling(5/2) = 8*3 = 24 seconds.
e.g. 5 dead aliens, 3 hives: Minimum time to spawn the lot at once = 8*ceiling(5/3) = 8*2 = 16 seconds.
e.g. 5 dead aliens, 4 hives: Minimum time to spawn the lot at once = 8*ceiling(5/4) = 8*2 = 16 seconds.
* Alternatively, rather than hives, you could link the number of queues to some basic alien structure, to be more analogous to IPs (marines can build multiple IPs per CC). I think just using hives would work nicely though.
So yes, aliens can all spawn in at once if there are eggs, but the trade-off is the much longer waiting period involved.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So, he's saying the mechanics are abit off, but instead of tweaking the actual problem the better solution is to make the game more frustrating?
(and NO - i am NOT reading OP's post)
Organized vs organized
Only with sentry farms, either in base, the forward base or both... problem is - if marines are in the forward base aliens attack marine base => if you are in the base aliens attack your outpost. If you split a coordinated alien rush will get those 2-3 marines killed and then they can block the phasegate with standing in it => everybody that walks trough will be instakilled.
Especially with fades you need sentry farms so while your team is focusing getting fades killed and pushing to hives or alien rts and keeping your rts alive against solo skulk kamikaze rushes - you cant also defend 1-2 bases all the time. (also dont forget fun stuff like whip rushes, clocked gorges with bilebomb etc etc.)
Maybe this will change with jps and exos, currently i find it pretty sad that sentrys(sentrys are not fun) are that important mid-lategame. (marine pushing can just be ignored by rushing behind lines and attacking vital structures(cc or powernode) => forces them to get back all the time => your rts are save, and as long as you have 2 hives - or at least the 2nd one under construction, there is no fear losing the game for very long times - no matter how much you screw up as aliens. one single mistake on the marine side(pushed too far or long, beacon too slow) can cost you the game)
On topic:
Minespam is stupid, and so is sentry spam - lets focus on the roots of the problems.
- Obvious solution is to fix the spawn times:
e.g.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No. It negates the aliens' power: speed and constant backup.
marines' are slow but steady.
compared directly, the power balance starts with aliens dominating early to produce the infestation effect without actually having any sort of infestation / pre-game whatsoever.
I wouldn't think marines are unable to produce viable bacterial scanners or subroutines in their nanites to prevent infestation of the kinds we're seeing on the maps.
Anyway, as the game unwinds the power shifts slowly to the marine's side as they construct their bridgehead and dig in to fortify their position until they can desinfect the area. the only way for aliens to win at that point is either incredible cunning or brute force by successfull deployment and usage of high tier units (mostly fade and 'rilla).
But Harimau is right...
If hari's suggestion makes it through the design process, aliens will have a hard time because the "biasramp" is shifted faster towards marines as harassing and thus dieing will penalize the aliens by respawn queue and pres gain.
If it comes to that then it's whether or not aliens can win a big fight and destroy everything, or if the marines can hold and use resources to turtle and eventually push out.
It's like I'm really playing star craft
Harassing =/= Dying.
Harassing =/= Dying.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
most times, yes. but any contact with the enemy is dangerous.
except, with this, marines gain an additional advantage and incentive for early hive rushes.
Maybe write a gameplay scenario...
A patch earlier we got 3 mines for 10 res with a lower fuse time which was clearly OP. 15 Res for 2 mines seems just fine, but the fuse time needs to be lower again so the mines are actually useful (if you play decently as alien you can just set them off and run away without taking any damage; very easy to pull off as fade).
lol. Who knew? :P
Anyway, the numbers (i.e. 8 seconds per spawn) were only to be analogous to the marine respawn times. It can be more, it can be less. I think the core functionality (queues) should be there though. The aliens still have the advantage of choosing their exact spawn location as well as their exact spawn time - they can (and should) coordinate by waiting for any others in the spawn queue before spawning into a hive, or decide they need to distract or harass alone.
<!--quoteo(post=1898052:date=Jan 29 2012, 11:27 PM:name=RobB)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RobB @ Jan 29 2012, 11:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1898052"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->except, with this, marines gain an additional advantage and incentive for early hive rushes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The counter-point is that aliens currently have massive advantage and incentive for early base rushes, because there is next to no penalty for suicidal rushes (i.e. the reason for this thread). The OP wanted to (not sure if he still does) stick an unsanitised band-aid on the problem (minespam), but I'm trying to tackle the problem at the cause (spawning).
And I think that any potentially suicidal actions - whether that's rushing, lonewolfing, harassing, etc. - needs to have a penalty. Or is it that because aliens tend to work alone, the penalty is too large? Well a) aliens shouldn't work alone, especially in larger games (not just because it's silly to take on increasingly larger groups of marines, but also because you increasingly have the potential to "group up" yourself), and b) one alien dying alone doesn't much affect the spawn queue.
I don't know what you mean by "marines gain an additional advantage". Additional with respect to what?
With respect to how it works now? So what does that mean? That marines "will" rush more?
Or with respect to the balance between sides? So marines will rush more than aliens, now that aliens can't rush as much? Really? I don't think so.
Using "how it works now" as the base point is a silly idea - you should be looking at how each team plays against each other. How easy is it for each side to rush the other (and how will each side be penalised for a failed rush)?
What, particularly, is the issue anyway? That hives/bases can get taken down easily, or that aliens can get taken down easily?
If it's the former, I believe it's part of a larger (not-so-obvious) problem**, but there is a solution*.
If it's the latter then I think that's symptomatic of the much larger issue of player-vs-player (im)balance, and having an objectively superior spawning mechanism (no penalty for death) can only exacerbate an otherwise minor alien-favoured imbalance rather than serve to fix the balance between sides.
*This was an idea that twiliteblue has prototyped: You scale the damage you do to structures down by the number of players on your team. So larger teams => less damage per person, but same damage overall. I would even go so far as to say that structures includes eggs (since the number of eggs to a hive doesn't really scale). So if <b>every player</b> on your team attacked any structure (hive, egg, etc.), it would take the <b>same</b> time to kill it, regardless of the <b>number</b> of players on your team.
So, e.g. coordinating and all with the same weapon:: 6 players on your team: you do X damage; 12 players on your team (twice as many), you do X/2 damage (half as much). total damage in the former case: 6*(X) = 6X; total damage in the latter case: 12*(X/2) = 6X.
**I think that's the real issue here, that rushing gets easier with larger games - and we are seeing larger games as performance gets better. The health and damage numbers, however, haven't changed much from the 6v6 days, have they?
I see, or rather want to see the kharaa similar to the drones in the alien movies - stick a knife in their hive and they're all over you.
The way it is now forces marines to break eggs whenever they encounter them and a coordinated team does so easily, even during a hive siege after the alien techtree has been cut back. If you introduce a queue that harsh now, there's no point in fighting back as all the marines need to do is mop up the respawning eggs one after the other.
I would also make the suggestion that egg respawn rates should increase the less eggs there are. If the alien team has no eggs, expect the egg respawn rate to be very high. If the alien team has almost the maximum capacity of eggs, it'll take quite some time to get the maximum number of eggs.
For example, time to next egg = 1 + (number of eggs)/2
Lerks can fly over mines, sustaining no damage, and fades can blink immediately after touching a mine to escape the blast. Skulks can sometimes graze the activation radius and get away. Of course, once a mine detonates it may detonate an adjacent mine, and another adjacent mine... Also, mines can be detonated with ranged abilities.
I'm fully aware that spawn times (this is a separate topic) and spawn methods directly influence the effectiveness of mines since they'll all be detonated anyway since there's no penalty for death. However, given the many, many methods of rendering mines completely useless, I feel they may be a bit overpriced. I'm saying, maybe knock off 1-5 res from their cost to really dial-in some balance. Alternatively, boost their damage a bit.
Anyway, I feel they could use some adjustment if the current detonation mechanics are intended.
they are, given the fact people started crying after the last big patch.
but ultimately, let's wait for the gorilla update. expecting onos and exo suit there, finally.