marine flashlight

c0ke · February 2012

<div class="IPBDescription">its /use/</div>im quite surprised how curious the marine flashlight is

it has a wide beam that doesnt even make it 10 meters

come on, its hundred(s) of years in the future, yet theyre walking around with flashlights (what already looks primitive), further these <b>flashlights of the future</b> are not even lighting things up 10m away? doesnt make sense to me and thats not comparable with the aliens flashlight (what probably wasnt the goal)

this leads us to another point. using flashlight does not give any disadvantage to the marines (same goes for aliens flashlight), so its the best to use it 24/7 and never turn it off.
<b>whether youre using your flashlight or not, aliens see you anyway</b> due to their flashlight.

so my suggestion is: have the flashlight of every player turned on by default and remove any option to turn it off

--you really gotta change some stuff there. e.g. give marines a proper flashlight! but it consumes energy over time (like JPs or flashlights in HL) so you cannot use it 24/7 (and maybe something alike for aliens flashlight)

Banzai¥ · February 2012

Flashlights in real-life can last a full-day without dying out. I know this is a science fiction game, but I wouldn't like the idea of a flashlight that dies out and needs recharging after a full minute of use or less.

Floodinator · February 2012

So I hate if others use the flash because it blinds be sometimes, also it seems that if I use my own flashligh I see a bit more but if someone else uses his FL it seem 2 times brighter and wider range.

Heroman117 · February 2012

I actually try to keep my flashlight off whenever possible, the atmospheric beam seen by other players is really huge and very apparent. It easily gives any observant alien player a heads-up about any oncoming marine that they wouldn't have been able to have seen otherwise. Alien vision lets you see marines that are in your line of sight more clearly, but marines using their flashlight can give away their position even if the marine is standing around a corner, out of sight.

Also, if your main problem with the current flashlight is that it doesn't realistically cast far-reaching beams of light, it doesn't really sound right to add an even more unrealistic energy meter that only lasts long enough to actually effect how the marines use it. I'd hate a permanently on flashlight, it so easily gives away your position and would really be unnecessary when you spend so much time in already lit rooms.

Sure the current flashlight doesn't feel right with its relatively low range, but the actual mechanics behind it, just like Ns1, work.

_Necro_ · February 2012

I didn't see a problem here too. Marines with flashlight are easy pray. I don't have to see them directly to know when I can attack. And if I play marine, I only use it in pitch black areas. The other lighting is enough to see aliens without flashlight.

Soul_Rider · February 2012

The one thing I'd like to see changed drastically is the marine flashlight.

I'd like it so marines can not use it when they are not in 'contested' rooms. The reason for this is purely that I am constantly blinded by noob teammates who walk around with the flashlight on all the time.

They seem completely unaware, that while the flashlight does not use atmospherics on their own screen, it does for everyone else. Maybe it's just me, but the flashlight is way too bright over it's short distance.

I wish people understood the pain and blindness they cause their teammates by walking around with the bloody thing on all the time!!

azimaith · February 2012

Well you want an advantage/disadvantage system for the flashlight?
You can use a real world one.

Flashlights <b>destroy</b> your night vision. Oh sure, you'll see the cone your light illuminates, but outside of that it's going to be absolutely pitch black. IE you will be blind to anything not in the cone of light (the cone including the shadowy periphery of the light.)

If you have basic night vision, the ability to detect motion, make out objects grainily in black and white in very dark settings (IE normal human nightvision) you have better awareness of approaching threats, but a poor ability to make out detail and exact positions.

You'd enter without the light, turn it on when you're pretty sure there's a threat. The problem is after you turn that light on, you better be right about the threat and you better not let it get into the darkness again or your in for a world of hurt.

That's a natural, realistic advantage/disadvantage to flashlights right there.

I'd personally also narrow the cone of the light a little and increase it's power, but that's just me. In the end, it's ultimately kind of silly (and perhaps homage to Aliens) that you use flashlights at all, NVG's would be pretty advanced at that period in time I bet, but maybe they prefer the rough and ready flash light. That sort of thing is really dependent on the fiction. Maybe frontiersmen are sort of third world style troops where they're outfitted to be as cheap and replaceable as possible by companies worrying about their bottom line.

As for alien flashlight, the problem with that is it really overwhelmingly good. Its practically a skin hack for aliens. Without reducing contrast (like AvP classic) to make it really useful for only navigation, you can't make it worse in it's current state except perhaps by following the flashlight example. They added "clicking" to make it sound sonar like. Maybe you could set it up so when loud noises occurred they'd "spoof" the aliens "sonar vision" making it hard to see in when a marine is unloading his rifle in the room.

Soul_Rider · February 2012

But taking the sonar thing further, you would see bullet traces and grenade arcs as well with sonar, so I think we have to forget the sonar idea as the basis for the kharaa night vision, because nothing that happens is sonic. Edges aren't exaggerated in sonar, specfic objects don't stand out more in sonar, really everything about the operation of the alien flashlight works differently to sonar. I think they have to dream up a new theory behind the flashlight, but not nanites!

azimaith · February 2012

I don't agree with that really. Sure, you'd see bullet traces, grenade arcs, anything that caused vibrations in the air, if you didn't actually try to be receptive only to certain frequencies, but an animal that wasn't would have a very hard time seeing anything if he detected absolutely every frequency of sound.

Edges aren't exaggerated? Doesn't that depends on what the edge is made on, how it bounces sound hitting an edge, and more importantly how the brain interprets that. If one set of sounds takes longer at a certain point, it's perfectly believable the brain will put extra emphasis on this change in distance thus giving us the "highlighted" edge effect. Same with moving objects such as humans, which even when standing still are moving thus constantly changing the distance sound travels between the two.

Because were dealing with a fictional organism without real life basis, we can have their sonar do pretty much anything that results in a change in distance or shape, including highlighting objects because ultimately, sonar is just measurement of distances followed by interpretation by a brain (or computer in the case of equipment.) Anything that can effect any part of this resulting in different feedback could be justified.

Mainly I went to the idea because it's shallow enough scientifically to be intuitive while still feeling like it might be believable to someone dealing with crazy aliens. Same thing with the games magic nanites. It does what it does because of nanites, it's a shallow enough explanation to prevent causing problems but intuitive enough (even if it's not necessarily accurate) to suspend disbelief.

Soul_Rider · February 2012

I see your point and it's valid, it is an alien life-form, it just doesn't feel like sonar, maybe your changes could help that, but I don't like the idea of a disadvantage to night-vision. Anyway, we've gone slightly OT here, so we'll let it get back to Marine Flashlight.

c0ke · February 2012

i also think the sonar example would work since bats can also see almost everything (i guess). probably not as accurate as we're used to, but they see exhegerated edges etc

im not really worrying about an explaination for the "why", but about the advantage/disadvantage thingy

the advantage of the marines flashlight is you see things that are closer than 10m to you much better. the disadvantage is aliens <b>that are currently not using their flashlight</b> can see you a little earlier. but since their flashlight ignores the marines flashlight totally and aliens are using theirs >90% of time because its a <b>guaranteed advantage</b> this disadvantage nearly vanishes completly. another disadvantage might be that you're blinding teammates etc, but this is nothing to really worry about compared to its use (imo)

so the first thing that came up to me was the most simple one; consumption of energy.

yet i have to say, i'd also prefer something more drastic (like a night vision or something very diffrent).
but the bad thing about it is the athmospheric it could take away. thats why i think UWE is going to stick to flashlights so night visions and such are no option.

what could a disadvantage look like, when its not the consumption of energy?

should flashlights be something researchable by the comm? buyable at the armory? maybe your crosshair disappears when its on?

infact, i just wanted to point out that something needs to be done about it as well as for the aliens flashlight. there has to be <b>a reason</b> why you should (atleast temporarily) turn it off!

maybe you got any better ideas that might satisfy UWE ;)

azimaith · February 2012

You are confusing NVG's with Night Vision. Night Vision Goggles are the fancy devices you strap on so you can see in low light. Night vision refers (in this case evident by context) to natural human vision in very low light. Human night vision is somewhat grainy and black and white and is ruined by bright light. This means if you walk down a dark hallway at night to go the bathroom, you can make out the vague shapes of things, you're quite sensitive to movement, and you don't see color without sufficient ambient light. However, the moment you flick the bathroom light on your night vision is gone. You have full color in the bathrooms full light, but as soon as that light goes off, everything is pitch black for a while until your night vision slowly comes back.

The same happens with flash lights which is why it's not always a good idea to use a flash light in certain situations (especially combat) because outside of the cone of light you are totally blind, whereas without the flash light, you can see dimly and are sensitive to movement but unable to make out good detail.

Wolpertinger · February 2012

+1

Change the flashlight effect. Most of the time it makes it actually harder for me to see anything. And it is annoying that its range is less than 10 meters...

Edit: And I do support the integration of nightvision/heatvision. But if they would make it into the game, they should definitly have some disadvantages. Replacing the flashlight, only 30 sec battery life?

Banzai¥ · February 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (azimaith @ Feb 7 2012, 08:14 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1900634"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>You are confusing NVG's with Night Vision. Night Vision Goggles are the fancy devices you strap on so you can see in low light. Night vision refers (in this case evident by context) to natural human vision in very low light. Human night vision is somewhat grainy and black and white and is ruined by bright light. This means if you walk down a dark hallway at night to go the bathroom, you can make out the vague shapes of things, you're quite sensitive to movement, and you don't see color without sufficient ambient light. However, the moment you flick the bathroom light on your night vision is gone. You have full color in the bathrooms full light, but as soon as that light goes off, everything is pitch black for a while until your night vision slowly comes back.

The same happens with flash lights which is why it's not always a good idea to use a flash light in certain situations (especially combat) because outside of the cone of light you are totally blind, whereas without the flash light, you can see dimly and are sensitive to movement but unable to make out good detail.</div>
I don't understand why the marines don't have NVG's, possibly through an upgrade where marines can buy em' (Maybe it'll be put in.) Something similar to Kharaa and their night-vision, only being majorly restricted in high-light area's (More like ARMA II has it, where even turning them on in dark area's will cause you to go blind for a brief moment.)

azimaith · February 2012

Probably because they didn't want to remove the effect of darkness in both atmosphere and effect with NVG's even if it would be realistic, it wouldn't necessarily be a good fit.

c0ke · February 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (azimaith @ Feb 7 2012, 08:14 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1900634"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>You are confusing NVG's with Night Vision.</div>
ye sorry, when i was talking about "night vision" i meant the goggles NVG.

if this disadvantage that you cant see much outside the cone is already implemented (i didnt notice that yet), it actually might be a "good" disadvantage. yet, the beams cone is still VERY wide and huge, so it wouldnt take much of an effect.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (azimaith @ Feb 7 2012, 08:53 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1900646"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>Probably because they didn't want to remove the effect of darkness in both atmosphere and effect with NVG's even if it would be realistic, it wouldn't necessarily be a good fit.</div>

thats it, from what i know. the athmospheric and marines would become too strong when theres no place to hide for the aliens. thats why i think theyll stick with the good old flashlights :D

Kouji_San · February 2012

most aliens play in 100% alien vision anyway. Not sure why though as you tend to miss A LOT with that on constantly. I only use it so scan an area before going into it.

Heroman117 · February 2012

Of course, people who like customizing the transparency of alien vision, with twilight's alien vision mod, you can still easily see the beams of marine flashlights even with alien vision on. Regardless, the disadvantages of having marine flashlight on all the time are indeed high as is, and aren't nullified by the fact that perhaps the alien has alien vision on, which frankly i don't think 90% of people playing the game right now have on 24/7. We've had this discussion before about alien vision <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=114938&st=0" target="_blank">here</a>, but i'll state again that perhaps newer players who don't realize how much information is being exempt from them tend to use it constantly, but players who choose to keep the vanilla alien vision, who also know the game thoroughly, probably vary greatly from people who use it all the time, and people who almost never use it.

The marine HUD doesn't need anymore elements in it, having a stamina bar has already been proposed, and having another bar to indicate how much energy the flashlight has to fix a practically non-issue is unnecessary. If players choose to have their flashlights on all the time, so be it, even if they don't realize it, they are advertising their presence to any alien even in the adjacent room. Having the flashlight on in already lit-rooms is already discouraged as it doesn't make it any easier to see, obscures teammates vision, and communicates marine presence at the same time; players will eventually learn when and when it is not appropriate to use the flashlight, and those who don't often don't play the game much anyway, or don't stick around for very long.

_Necro_ · February 2012

^
||

This. Absolutely my opinion.

Harimau · February 2012

Why do we even need disadvantages for such basic functions?

Should I have a disadvantage by pressing the jump key?
Should I have a disadvantage while using the directional keys?

I would, personally, eliminate all disadvantages from both flashlight and alien dark vision. That is, remove the atmospherics from marine flashlight and increase its range and cone, and have transparency for alien dark vision (or something similar).

Banzai¥ · February 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Heroman117 @ Feb 8 2012, 01:02 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1900883"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>The marine HUD doesn't need anymore elements in it, having a stamina bar has already been proposed, and having another bar to indicate how much energy the flashlight has to fix a practically non-issue is unnecessary. If players choose to have their flashlights on all the time, so be it, even if they don't realize it, they are advertising their presence to any alien even in the adjacent room. Having the flashlight on in already lit-rooms is already discouraged as it doesn't make it any easier to see, obscures teammates vision, and communicates marine presence at the same time; players will eventually learn when and when it is not appropriate to use the flashlight, and those who don't often don't play the game much anyway, or don't stick around for very long.</div>
They could always make the stamina and energy (flashlight) combined, we all know how well that has worked for a certain game. [/sarcasm]

c0ke · February 2012

everything that is not meant to be the "normal" setting HAS to have disadvantages
and when an option <i>that is not the "normal" one</i> is used >50% (especially @alien flashlight) then something is going terribly wrong

i do not really care if the marine flashlight is going to suffer any penalty cause i dont see any disadvantage for myself, yet i think its not working as intended (same goes massivly for the alien flashlight)

this especially applies for the case the marine flashlight is being "fixed" and the beam reaches beyond 10m

what <i>might</i> explain something

IeptBarakat · February 2012

I have to say, I really am starting to dislike the marine flashlight. Especially when players keep it on the entire time giving away our positions and blinding their teammates in the process. And sometimes the flashlight length isn't long enough for places like warehouse in tram.

I'd be fine with a timer on the flashlight. It doesn't need a hud element, as it could start to dim and flicker as it's running out of juice.

Banzai¥ · February 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (IeptBarakat @ Feb 8 2012, 01:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1901035"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>I have to say, I really am starting to dislike the marine flashlight. Especially when players keep it on the entire time giving away our positions and blinding their teammates in the process. And sometimes the flashlight length isn't long enough for places like warehouse in tram.

I'd be fine with a timer on the flashlight. It doesn't need a hud element, as it could start to dim and flicker as it's running out of juice.</div>
If your teammates are flashing a light at you or you want to go 'silent' so to speak, then tell them that and hopefully they'll listen. I don't see how a flashlight will have a minute full of energy before needing to be charged up, even mechanical ones today can run a full 5+ minutes on 15-30 seconds of cranking or movement.
Even with this being a game, I found the quick dying flashlight to be an annoying mechanic that doesn't make too much sense. Saying that though, I would love to see some flickering action and dimmed down light, but I don't want to see flashlights completely dying after half a minute or so.

IeptBarakat · February 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BanzaiÂ¥ @ Feb 8 2012, 01:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1901038"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>then tell them that and hopefully they'll listen.</div>

Sadly this is usually not the case, even after asking them. They'll still run around the map with the flashlight always on. Maybe a sort of community training video is in need.

SkymanderX · February 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Heroman117 @ Feb 6 2012, 08:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1900446"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>I actually try to keep my flashlight off whenever possible, the atmospheric beam seen by other players is really huge and very apparent. It easily gives any observant alien player a heads-up about any oncoming marine that they wouldn't have been able to have seen otherwise. Alien vision lets you see marines that are in your line of sight more clearly, but marines using their flashlight can give away their position even if the marine is standing around a corner, out of sight.

Also, if your main problem with the current flashlight is that it doesn't realistically cast far-reaching beams of light, it doesn't really sound right to add an even more unrealistic energy meter that only lasts long enough to actually effect how the marines use it. I'd hate a permanently on flashlight, it so easily gives away your position and would really be unnecessary when you spend so much time in already lit rooms.

Sure the current flashlight doesn't feel right with its relatively low range, but the actual mechanics behind it, just like Ns1, work.</div>
You beat me to it. It gives away position for aliens who don't have theirs on all the time. I agree it needs to be extended but it can also blind teamates and its best to have it to turn on and off for fun as well as practicality.

Harimau · February 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (c0ke @ Feb 9 2012, 12:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1901014"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>everything that is not meant to be the "normal" setting HAS to have disadvantages
and when an option <i>that is not the "normal" one</i> is used >50% (especially @alien flashlight) then something is going terribly wrong

i do not really care if the marine flashlight is going to suffer any penalty cause i dont see any disadvantage for myself, yet i think its not working as intended (same goes massivly for the alien flashlight)

this especially applies for the case the marine flashlight is being "fixed" and the beam reaches beyond 10m

what <i>might</i> explain something</div>
So between walking forward, left, right, or backward, which is the normal setting?

marine flashlight

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